Dyno Tuned
10-01-2013, 11:00 PM
#42
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I don't have experience with DI tuning yet.
Neither with Diesels.
Is it possible that the spray pattern / atomization suffers to a degree where it could have an adverse effect?
Meaning, 19% isn't really 19% capacity if you catch my drift?
Neither with Diesels.
Is it possible that the spray pattern / atomization suffers to a degree where it could have an adverse effect?
Meaning, 19% isn't really 19% capacity if you catch my drift?
10-01-2013, 11:08 PM
#43
Nice 21MC! Can I ask you a question, do you find the tunes are different based on the driving modes?
I posted a thread up earlier when me and my buddy pulled the tune off with hptuners last week and were looking at it. I did see the FI tables and was quite shocked.
Both him and me had FI/DI cars before this, so we are excited about throwing a tune on, any insight would be a help. He has tuned thousands of cars, but we just havent had the time to do a proper street tune followed up with a dyno test and logging.
In the turbo cobalt ss world (Direct injection stock turbo, in which the ats motor is an evolution of the LNF) injectors was never an issue, it was the high pressure fuel pump. Many guys were running 4-500whp on injectors that came stock for a 260 crank hp car.
I posted a thread up earlier when me and my buddy pulled the tune off with hptuners last week and were looking at it. I did see the FI tables and was quite shocked.
Both him and me had FI/DI cars before this, so we are excited about throwing a tune on, any insight would be a help. He has tuned thousands of cars, but we just havent had the time to do a proper street tune followed up with a dyno test and logging.
In the turbo cobalt ss world (Direct injection stock turbo, in which the ats motor is an evolution of the LNF) injectors was never an issue, it was the high pressure fuel pump. Many guys were running 4-500whp on injectors that came stock for a 260 crank hp car.
Last edited by Baron7700; 10-01-2013 at 11:12 PM.
10-01-2013, 11:14 PM
#44
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Nice 21MC! Can I ask you a question, do you find the tunes are different based on the driving modes?
I posted a thread up earlier when me and my buddy pulled the tune off with hptuners last week and were looking at it. I did see the FI tables and was quite shocked.
Both him and me had FI/DI cars before this, so we are excited about throwing a tune on, any insight would be a help. He has tuned thousands of cars, but we just havent had the time to do a proper street tune followed up with a dyno test and logging.
In the turbo cobalt ss world (Direct injection stock turbo, in which the ats motor is an evolution of the LNF) injectors was never an issue, it was the high pressure fuel pump. Many guys were running 4-500whp on injectors that came stock for a 260 crank hp car.
I posted a thread up earlier when me and my buddy pulled the tune off with hptuners last week and were looking at it. I did see the FI tables and was quite shocked.
Both him and me had FI/DI cars before this, so we are excited about throwing a tune on, any insight would be a help. He has tuned thousands of cars, but we just havent had the time to do a proper street tune followed up with a dyno test and logging.
In the turbo cobalt ss world (Direct injection stock turbo, in which the ats motor is an evolution of the LNF) injectors was never an issue, it was the high pressure fuel pump. Many guys were running 4-500whp on injectors that came stock for a 260 crank hp car.
10-01-2013, 11:16 PM
#45
Nothing to successful per se, some companies came out with cams that had a slightly bigger fuel pump lobe on it to increase duration and try to get the pump to just pump longer / harder / more etc. A friend of mine just put them on and we went to the dyno, due to other reasons, he didnt make any more power. The cobalt SS' dont have that big of an aftermarket support unfortunately, which is a shame because the motor is just awesome, and makes crazy power, and torque.
I routinely made 310whp/360wtrq out of the stock tiny k04 twinscroll turbo and ran high 12's on street tires on just an intake, catless downpipe, and a tune (thats 100whp and 140wtrq over stock out of basically just a tune). Its gone now though...
I routinely made 310whp/360wtrq out of the stock tiny k04 twinscroll turbo and ran high 12's on street tires on just an intake, catless downpipe, and a tune (thats 100whp and 140wtrq over stock out of basically just a tune). Its gone now though...
10-01-2013, 11:28 PM
#47
I wish I could have kept mine and do the vette, I feel like some day Ill look back and see one in still decent condition and wish I still had mine / maybe itll be worth something (not crazy money, but some value)
10-01-2013, 11:46 PM
#48
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I'll never sell my neon. These type of cars are dying out.
And the T850 usually handles up to 750 whp / trq.
Not sure what the tubo 'balts can do, I was turned off by their blown predecessors...
And the T850 usually handles up to 750 whp / trq.
Not sure what the tubo 'balts can do, I was turned off by their blown predecessors...
10-02-2013, 01:06 AM
#49
Team Owner
I seriously doubt a better tune to pick up a few ponies up top will hurt MPGs, shoot, I bet the 21st Century tune gets better that stock MPG 
Edit:
I guess I should say I'm sure a company as big as GM could find a way to put a better tune to pick up a few ponies up top without hurting MPGs. They just didn't want to.... YET....
Edit:
I guess I should say I'm sure a company as big as GM could find a way to put a better tune to pick up a few ponies up top without hurting MPGs. They just didn't want to.... YET....
It is about emissions. It is about achieving and maintaining catalytic converter temperature. There are 20 other things they have to look at than MPG.
I know a lot of people say tuned cars drive like stock, they probably do 95 to 99 percent of the time but for an OEM it has to be 100 percent of the time.
I have my Regal GS tuned, 330hp from 270 stock, 65ft lbs over stock. It has a hair trigger gas pedal, its pretty jerky on the freeway because 22lbs of boost is about 1/8" of an inch away on the pedal.
It's much faster and I like it, but most would not and would complain. That is an extreme example but it rarely has much to do with MPG. Drive ability is a big thing. Especially on manual trans cars, they put a lot of work into on pedal/off pedal and slapping/slack in the drive train.
10-02-2013, 09:39 AM
#50
Then you do not understand it is not about MPG.
It is about emissions. It is about achieving and maintaining catalytic converter temperature. There are 20 other things they have to look at than MPG.
I know a lot of people say tuned cars drive like stock, they probably do 95 to 99 percent of the time but for an OEM it has to be 100 percent of the time.
I have my Regal GS tuned, 330hp from 270 stock, 65ft lbs over stock. It has a hair trigger gas pedal, its pretty jerky on the freeway because 22lbs of boost is about 1/8" of an inch away on the pedal.
It's much faster and I like it, but most would not and would complain. That is an extreme example but it rarely has much to do with MPG. Drive ability is a big thing. Especially on manual trans cars, they put a lot of work into on pedal/off pedal and slapping/slack in the drive train.
It is about emissions. It is about achieving and maintaining catalytic converter temperature. There are 20 other things they have to look at than MPG.
I know a lot of people say tuned cars drive like stock, they probably do 95 to 99 percent of the time but for an OEM it has to be 100 percent of the time.
I have my Regal GS tuned, 330hp from 270 stock, 65ft lbs over stock. It has a hair trigger gas pedal, its pretty jerky on the freeway because 22lbs of boost is about 1/8" of an inch away on the pedal.
It's much faster and I like it, but most would not and would complain. That is an extreme example but it rarely has much to do with MPG. Drive ability is a big thing. Especially on manual trans cars, they put a lot of work into on pedal/off pedal and slapping/slack in the drive train.
10-02-2013, 10:11 AM
#52
Safety Car
DI engines are not like PFI. You can't really go by injector duty cycle. You have to look at the start of injection and end of injection timing as well as the rail pressure. On most engines, any SOI before 340BTDC firing and EOI after 50BTDC firing will have smoke and oil dilution. This is because the fuel hits the piston or cylinder wall.
Call it 19 percent if you want, but that's thinking in PFI terms really. On a PFI engine, you tune the injection timing first by the end of injection. It's either open valve or closed valve injection. Typically full load is open valve, and if you fully max the injectors out they keep spraying on the back of the valve all through the 4 strokes.
Again, they will max out if you care about fuel impingement, oil dilution, and throwing fuel out of the exhaust valve. Which, I admit, nobody here cares about that much.
But to say GM left a bunch of headroom is simply not getting into their mindset and not understanding how DI engines are designed. Injection timing, rail pressure, and number of injections are all important factors, and they can affect horsepower.
Call it 19 percent if you want, but that's thinking in PFI terms really. On a PFI engine, you tune the injection timing first by the end of injection. It's either open valve or closed valve injection. Typically full load is open valve, and if you fully max the injectors out they keep spraying on the back of the valve all through the 4 strokes.
Again, they will max out if you care about fuel impingement, oil dilution, and throwing fuel out of the exhaust valve. Which, I admit, nobody here cares about that much.
But to say GM left a bunch of headroom is simply not getting into their mindset and not understanding how DI engines are designed. Injection timing, rail pressure, and number of injections are all important factors, and they can affect horsepower.
GM never said that. A troll posing as a GM engineeer Big_Gunzz on LS1 tech did. He had a whole flock of people riding his ***** before being outed.
10-02-2013, 01:15 PM
#53
Le Mans Master
OP, great results.
I love this platform as there are so many performance options.
Does your tune only operate in certain modes? Say the track mode only? Or does it work at all times?
Would you have the option of getting the full power program in track and maybe the best mpg program in 4 cylinder mode, or something like that?
On mpg & tunes, my previous car gained 50 rwhp with bolt ons and gained a solid 4-5 mpg. It was a pretty large improvement.
I love this platform as there are so many performance options.
Does your tune only operate in certain modes? Say the track mode only? Or does it work at all times?
Would you have the option of getting the full power program in track and maybe the best mpg program in 4 cylinder mode, or something like that?
On mpg & tunes, my previous car gained 50 rwhp with bolt ons and gained a solid 4-5 mpg. It was a pretty large improvement.
10-02-2013, 02:31 PM
#54
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Considering most guys who mod their car take pride in changing the oil every 2500-3000 miles with expensive stuff, the mindset is going to be totally different from an engineer trying to tune the car specifically for max oil life. Also, the durability requirements are very different. When you run durability on an engine dyno, it's sitting there at a steady-state condition for what most would consider a very long period of time (it could be say anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour straight at WOT). In a car, you bang through the gears in a 1/4 mile and that's it. An engine dyno can't recreate that so easily, so something that shows up in a vehicle transient may be hard to catch during a tight development schedule. Look at the transient knock issue that the Subaru BRZ has had.
So when leaning out for power you might drop an exhaust valve in a manufacturer durability test but would never see that on the street unless you slap twin turbos on there or something. Or in the case of forced induction, the block may have been designed to withstand a low speed preignition event that you might never hit on the street, only an engine dyno. That's part of the reason why blocks designed for boost often hold up so much better than blocks not designed for it. The durability targets are set for a lab environment.
Last edited by arghx7; 10-02-2013 at 02:35 PM.
10-02-2013, 02:49 PM
#55
Banned Scam/Spammer
Base line tune compared to 21CMC tune, both done same day, same dyno and same fuel.....
Stock>>>>>> 21CMC tune
RWHP 398.7>>> 430.3
RWTQ 391.7>>> 427.0
The tuned graph was even done in 6 degree higher heat
Tremendous gains over entire power band!
We will have mail order tunes available soon!
Best Regards,
John Page
Twenty First Century Muscle Cars
www.21stcenturymusclecars.com
Stock>>>>>> 21CMC tune
RWHP 398.7>>> 430.3
RWTQ 391.7>>> 427.0
The tuned graph was even done in 6 degree higher heat
Tremendous gains over entire power band!
We will have mail order tunes available soon!
Best Regards,
John Page
Twenty First Century Muscle Cars
www.21stcenturymusclecars.com
+35tq on top of a very favorable stock LT1 tq curve will give this car a huge "fun to drive factor". Gorgeous graph.
The car has only been out for a little over a week and the aftermarket has bumped the power in significant fashion. I can't wait till someone fabs up a set LTs and gets the numbers on that setup. This is going to be fun for sure.
10-02-2013, 04:30 PM
#57
Race Director
Then you do not understand it is not about MPG.
It is about emissions. It is about achieving and maintaining catalytic converter temperature. There are 20 other things they have to look at than MPG.
I know a lot of people say tuned cars drive like stock, they probably do 95 to 99 percent of the time but for an OEM it has to be 100 percent of the time.
I have my Regal GS tuned, 330hp from 270 stock, 65ft lbs over stock. It has a hair trigger gas pedal, its pretty jerky on the freeway because 22lbs of boost is about 1/8" of an inch away on the pedal.
It's much faster and I like it, but most would not and would complain. That is an extreme example but it rarely has much to do with MPG. Drive ability is a big thing. Especially on manual trans cars, they put a lot of work into on pedal/off pedal and slapping/slack in the drive train.
It is about emissions. It is about achieving and maintaining catalytic converter temperature. There are 20 other things they have to look at than MPG.
I know a lot of people say tuned cars drive like stock, they probably do 95 to 99 percent of the time but for an OEM it has to be 100 percent of the time.
I have my Regal GS tuned, 330hp from 270 stock, 65ft lbs over stock. It has a hair trigger gas pedal, its pretty jerky on the freeway because 22lbs of boost is about 1/8" of an inch away on the pedal.
It's much faster and I like it, but most would not and would complain. That is an extreme example but it rarely has much to do with MPG. Drive ability is a big thing. Especially on manual trans cars, they put a lot of work into on pedal/off pedal and slapping/slack in the drive train.
I think your example of tuning is a bit exaggerated especially being boosted. I'm sure the tuned C7 does not drive like what you are describing.
All I am saying is that when the car manufacturer, who has control over EVERYTHING (cam size, head design, displacement, pistons, injection type, tuning, fuel type, weight, CD, etc etc etc) can't give us better numbers than what they did, and then in the first few days of this car being out an independent tuner picks up 30rwhp and rwtq something is being held back
10-02-2013, 04:46 PM
#58
Melting Slicks
They give you a nice safe tune from the factory. A tune that allows for a multitude of variables including fuel, temp, etc. It makes perfect sense.
10-02-2013, 05:07 PM
#59
Race Director
10-02-2013, 05:24 PM
#60
Melting Slicks