Or it could be my 20 years working in the auto industry in engineering for one of the major OEM's.

Either or

This is absolutely nothing against any tuner out there so don't take it as such. People buying tunes for their engine will deal with the little things here and there, they take power over perfection. Most people may not even notice it but OEM's tune to a massively long list of customer satisfaction benchmarks. Usually those benchmarks are set by other cars.

Do Corvette owners care if the shifter kicks a hair when letting off the gas at WOT, most likely no, but do the 5 competing cars do that, no, so they tune/work around it.

My example is not extreme its just an indication. I'm turning 3,500rpm in 6th at 80mph, so any touch of the gas hits 22lbs, so you get a jerk. That's what you get when you want to run 22lbs of boost all the time, so I deal with it. Same thing with aftermarket tuning.

The point is tuning for max horsepower is usually not on the OEM's mind for about 20 different reasons.

21st tunes a car and puts in a big cam and it has a slight surge their answer is thats what happens when you put in a big cam, problem solved.

GM goes for max effort in the tuning and the customer brings in a car into a dealer for something that's $300 in warranty money out the window.

 

You didn't answer my question, but that sounds like a yes

 

@NoOne:
And that´s exactly why I will always modify any toy I won.
Because mass production engineering results in compromises.
While I have to make coimpromises during my builds as well, they will fall in different areas, that I could care less about, such as NVH, comfort or fuel efficiency.

 

20 years in engineering with a major OEM?? Well of course you aren't going to agree with me

To say GMs tuning is perfection is a stretch. Tuning involves more than just the motor, and there have been many complaints about the glitchy, slow shifting A6 transmission when introduced (which has apparently been addressed in subsequent tunes in the later C6 models). I would think that the tune they have is more of a cookie cutter, one size fits all which would be far from perfect. But what do I know, I just deliver packages for a living

Thanks for discussing it with me and not labeling me as a troll BTW

 

Alright alright.... I see what you mean.

I just wanted MORE POWAH!!!!

I'm not a troll.... seriously

 

Man the more I read and learn about my younger brother (C7)and its capabilities, the more im like a fat kid in a candy isle.. That is damn impressive for a basic tune. TT and Supercharger tables in the factory ECM??? There are gonna be some nasty C7's rolling around in time......

 

Sooo can we just throw FI on it and use those tables? Plug and Play? I kid.

However. What I want to know about is warranty. On my Mini I have a handheld unit that allows me to uninstall the tune before I bring it in and it's impossible for the dealer to know otherwise. Will I be able to do this on the C7...if say you offered a canned tune? I was told a couple years back that GM did something with the ECU where even if you tune it, and remove the tune, they will still know. What's the straight answer on this? Would I get this tune to add to my eventual C7 with catless headers for $500? Of course! Would I get the tune at the cost of my engine's warranty? Not so sure on that one.

Thank you for your time! Looking forward to being a customer.

Best,
Gene

 

Sorry but there was an interview with a GM engineer posted a while back and he clearly said the aftermarket was going to have "problems tuning the new DI system in the new PCM". Perhaps this individual didn't realize that there are better and more competent calibrators in the aftermarket than at GM, which is further verified by the disappointing factory calibration that left this kind of power on the table.

But in regards to the OP congrats to 21st CMC John Page is A-1 in my book

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, OEM engineers and aftermarket tuners don't think the same way. I don't want to put words in that guys mouth, but he's literally thinking about all these other concerns that most people on this forum don't care about:

1) smoke and particulate emission
2) exhaust temperature as it relates to cat life & in some cases exhaust valve
3) combustion stability under spark retard
4) jerkiness on tip-in
5) oil dilution
6) NVH
7) fuel economy under high loads

Since he and his team had so much trouble balancing all those factors with engine output, he's implicitly assuming the aftermarket will as well.

But the aftermarket doesn't have access to combustion analysis, so they don't care about combustion quality unless it's misfiring. They don't have smoke meters, so they don't care about that, and lots of people actually want their car to smoke sometimes. They don't care about NVH, because people want it to be loud. And they don't care about oil dilution, because their proud of changing their oil all the time. The list goes on.

That's where the horsepower comes from. You're trading off those concerns I mentioned above. It's not about who's a better tuner, a team of guys with millions of dollars in engines and equipment vs guys who spend some hours on a dyno jet.

 

yeah I saw that too. The ECU is used in the new Cadi V6 turbo.

 

so true! no offence to any one particular tuner but most think that they are genius but in reality they are just hacks when compared the the calibration engineers at GM.

 

Maybe the Engineers just say that to keep the EPA hippies happy, while secretly deep down left the door open a to allow maximum performance from their vehicle. :wink: :wink:

 

Hrmmm....yeah maybe..dont get me started on the FEDs!
Self employed here and as of Sept of 2014 my individual health ins will be no longer available. I will be forced to by Obamacare...1365 a month for just me and my wife and we are 47 years old and in great shape...oh yeah 5K deductible with a 20% copay! Currently paying 625 a month with little deductible. My friend is going to pay 2400 a month for his family of 4!!!

 

Unfortunately a tuned C7 (like the OP's) would pass California emissions with flying colors and produce a cleaner burning motor than the stock tuned version. Most of the gains here from tuning came from two areas - optimizing engine timing and running the car at the proper WOT A/F ratio (including proper scaling of the MAF and/or dynamic airflow for E10). What burns cleaner - a car with too little timing or one where spark advance is optimized for a more complete combustion with each engine revolution? If you think that running a car WOT at 11:1 versus 12:1 A/F ratio is better for all of the things in your list above then discussing this with you further is completely pointless.

And don't even get me started on the factory GM breather setups that have puked oil into the motor since the LS1 - to be burned off or cause deposits in the engine (which have been shown to be far worse in all of GM's DI engines to date). Spending more time and money on developing something has nothing to do with producing a superior result - case in point which is demonstrated quite well with the C7 that was tuned. If GM cared so much about emissions why not make the C7 flex fuel capable from the factory? That would have allowed a huge leap in every category you listed above for almost no cost to GM.

I guess the geniuses with millions of dollars and all the PHd's couldn't figure out what the aftermarket hacks playing on dynos will in the next few months

 

So true... few people understand what goes into tuning an engine to meet ALL requirements. Death Valley, Arctic Canada, 24 continuous hours wide open on the track, EPA mileage, EPA emissions, NVH, mass production... the list goes on and on.

Don't underestimate what OEMs have Engineered and the collective talent it requires.

 

Which do you think makes for a more durable, long lasting engine?

 

No warranty with the new numbers!

 

There would be no difference with a tune that is safe given the climate that it is run in every day or over the course of a year. I tuned a turbo LS1 6 years ago that the kid just rags the crap out of every single day running almost 500rwhp through a bone stock engine. It finally gave up the other day with 216,000 miles on the clock but until then it would waste C6 Z06's all the time on the street in roll races and was very consistent over that period.

So while there are plenty tuners out there who are clueless PE hacks that have no business even tuning a go cart - there are also plenty like Matt at 21st CMC who can optimize an LSx car without taking risks that might hurt the longevity or reliability of the car. I have hundreds of previously tuned LS1's running with 100-200k miles on the clock that have been completely trouble free for 10 years or more

 

Interesting.

 

If the 5.3 with added DI and VV gained 50 HP Then the 6.2 should be able to achieve that unless they didn't want it to for some reason. We can only speculate and work around it like all car nuts have done. Great keep the info coming!
Was there any truth to the former reading that just removing the air cleaner was worth 20 HP?