Guys...Mid-engine Vette inside.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: N. CA
Race Director
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I just can't see a GM car selling for that much...regardless of the tech.
Why the he!! would anyone in their right mind buy one when they could buy the top-of-the-line Ferrari for similar money?
Based on what the used car market is for the previous gen of the GT, you bet the will.
Last I heard the list is over 7,000....essentially, the car is sold out.
Looks a lot like the Audi, doesn't it?
Why the he!! would anyone in their right mind buy one when they could buy the top-of-the-line Ferrari for similar money?
Based on what the used car market is for the previous gen of the GT, you bet the will.
There's a waiting list just to get on the order list.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2014
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I'm not sure why there is concern whether or not GM can produce a high HP turbo...
The current ATS-V is powered by a 3.6L twin turbocharged V6 producing 464 horsepower and 445 lb·ft (603 N·m) of torque.
The current ATS-V is powered by a 3.6L twin turbocharged V6 producing 464 horsepower and 445 lb·ft (603 N·m) of torque.
Race Director
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Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 8,729
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From: Redmond WA
I'm afraid a $300K or $400K Vette would just hurt sales of the top-of-the-line current cars (the Z) because now you're "settling" for second best.
The Corvette is, for many, an aspirational purchase. People don't want to save up for years to "settle" for the second best Corvette. At least that's my feeling from a marketing perspective.
All that said, unless there's a lot more source data than those photos, it could be anything.
The Corvette is, for many, an aspirational purchase. People don't want to save up for years to "settle" for the second best Corvette. At least that's my feeling from a marketing perspective.
All that said, unless there's a lot more source data than those photos, it could be anything.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 551
From: North California
The problem with turbos is many-fold:
1. lag which makes them disgusting to drive at the track
2. additional intercoolers which makes the car heavy and hard to cool
3. the turbine impelers are situated in the exhaust, killing the exhaust note
So it drives terrible, it sound terrible, and it's tough to cool.
No engineering problem is impossible to solve, but I can count on my fingers the cars that have at least figured out one solution. In the 911 turbo S, Porsche finally figured out how to eliminate the lag for example.
1. lag which makes them disgusting to drive at the track
2. additional intercoolers which makes the car heavy and hard to cool
3. the turbine impelers are situated in the exhaust, killing the exhaust note
So it drives terrible, it sound terrible, and it's tough to cool.
No engineering problem is impossible to solve, but I can count on my fingers the cars that have at least figured out one solution. In the 911 turbo S, Porsche finally figured out how to eliminate the lag for example.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 11,905
Likes: 2,148
I'm afraid a $300K or $400K Vette would just hurt sales of the top-of-the-line current cars (the Z) because now you're "settling" for second best.
The Corvette is, for many, an aspirational purchase. People don't want to save up for years to "settle" for the second best Corvette. At least that's my feeling from a marketing perspective.
The Corvette is, for many, an aspirational purchase. People don't want to save up for years to "settle" for the second best Corvette. At least that's my feeling from a marketing perspective.
The difference in $$$ is so much it would be a situation where the purchase would depend on the buyer's economic class, not the desire for the TOP Corvette available.
The problem with turbos is many-fold:
1. lag which makes them disgusting to drive at the track
2. additional intercoolers which makes the car heavy and hard to cool
3. the turbine impelers are situated in the exhaust, killing the exhaust note
So it drives terrible, it sound terrible, and it's tough to cool.
No engineering problem is impossible to solve, but I can count on my fingers the cars that have at least figured out one solution. In the 911 turbo S, Porsche finally figured out how to eliminate the lag for example.
1. lag which makes them disgusting to drive at the track
2. additional intercoolers which makes the car heavy and hard to cool
3. the turbine impelers are situated in the exhaust, killing the exhaust note
So it drives terrible, it sound terrible, and it's tough to cool.
No engineering problem is impossible to solve, but I can count on my fingers the cars that have at least figured out one solution. In the 911 turbo S, Porsche finally figured out how to eliminate the lag for example.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 551
From: North California
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/
All turbo cars have lag. Hybrids, considered by many the only true zero lag solution, are reported to have more lag as the electric charge depletes.
I've heard the M5 V10 engine and the 488 on track. The M5 makes the 488 Ferrari sound like a turbo Subaru.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; Jul 1, 2016 at 02:45 PM.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,475
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From: Port Arthur, Texas 77642
The answer lies here...48 volt systems. Belt and exhaust driven forced induction will be a thing of the past like the dinosaurs. If anyone can't see this their eyes and mind is closed. Steps are moving in this direction already..it may not be 48 volt, it may be higher but this is already in play.
http://autoweek.com/article/technolo...n=awdailydrive
http://autoweek.com/article/technolo...n=awdailydrive
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 11,905
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One would have to see the numbers on say the 4.3 V6 OHV vs A LT1 upgrade DOHC. These V8's do well!
Some more numbers questions:
-Would the V8 DOHC end up with VVTx4, considering cost?
-Would it still need AFM with the hybrid electronic motors, and what would it be worth?
Some more numbers questions:
-Would the V8 DOHC end up with VVTx4, considering cost?
-Would it still need AFM with the hybrid electronic motors, and what would it be worth?
I do know Cadillac put one in their XLR that was very nice (I had one for 8 years.)
Pro
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 679
Likes: 234
From: Flower Mound, TX
Originally Posted by SBC_and_a_stick
"Even so, clever programming can't fix the problem that has afflicted turbochargers since the technology was invented: lag. Ferrari claims the California's new turbo engine has "zero turbo lag" and "instantaneous response," then defines response time as "less than one second." Really? In a car that can hit 60 mph in three seconds, one second is anything but instantaneous."
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/
All turbo cars have lag. Hybrids, considered by many the only true zero lag solution, are reported to have more lag as the electric charge depletes.
I've heard the M5 V10 engine and the 488 on track. The M5 makes the 488 Ferrari sound like a turbo Subaru.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...turbocharging/
All turbo cars have lag. Hybrids, considered by many the only true zero lag solution, are reported to have more lag as the electric charge depletes.
I've heard the M5 V10 engine and the 488 on track. The M5 makes the 488 Ferrari sound like a turbo Subaru.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,369
Likes: 179
From: Road Atlanta You do the MATH!
The problem with turbos is many-fold:
1. lag which makes them disgusting to drive at the track
2. additional intercoolers which makes the car heavy and hard to cool
3. the turbine impelers are situated in the exhaust, killing the exhaust note
So it drives terrible, it sound terrible, and it's tough to cool.
No engineering problem is impossible to solve, but I can count on my fingers the cars that have at least figured out one solution. In the 911 turbo S, Porsche finally figured out how to eliminate the lag for example.
1. lag which makes them disgusting to drive at the track
2. additional intercoolers which makes the car heavy and hard to cool
3. the turbine impelers are situated in the exhaust, killing the exhaust note
So it drives terrible, it sound terrible, and it's tough to cool.
No engineering problem is impossible to solve, but I can count on my fingers the cars that have at least figured out one solution. In the 911 turbo S, Porsche finally figured out how to eliminate the lag for example.
Also it's better than a supercharger. Which also has lag, also adds parasitic loss and heat directly to the top of the engine, AND the same need for more intercoolers which is already more weight? Turbo for almost every car has been preferred to superchargers for road course work.
If you corner fast enough, lag is not an issue. NA is the best for the road course, I don't think anyone could argue that, but Turbo is second. F1 uses it, IMSA and FIA are moving to it as well. And that technology is going to trickle down for sure as EPA standards continue to rise and more cars are forced to go Turbo.
Not to mention, new quick shifting transmissions eliminate lag anyways between shifts because they don't allow boost to drop. If they are asking 400k, it better have a DCT.
Last edited by heavychevy; Jul 1, 2016 at 09:21 PM.
Race Director
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I'm going to guess you haven't driven a California-T. I have, and the lag was imperceptible to me. I wouldn't have known the car was turbocharged if it weren't for my prior knowledge. Sound was fabulous and lag was non-existent. I love N/A sports cars as much as anyone, and I own one, just pointing out my observations on the F car.
http://www.exoticsracing.com/
I've been there several times...a completely FIRST class experience.
Rated at 443hp and 414 lbs.
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2015
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The electric turbo is a possible solution. Have any of you looked at the new f1 engines? The hybrid system they have is amazing. It has something like 1.4l turbo making 600hp (I could be a little off on that displacement amount) and it has a electric motor on the turbo that counters lag down low and when it gets going with the exhaust the motor acts as both a generator and to keep it from over spinning(acts as the wastegate). Now put this on a bigger displacement v6 or v8 and have twin turbos and boom. Amazing.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,974
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If the car does arrive 2018-19, based on the 488/458 cost comparison, I doubt if a new Ferrari in 2018 will have a base price anywhere near $400,000.
At present you can buy a Mclaren 675 LT or Lamborghini Aventador for that money. Allot of famous brands with more panache, to choose from.
There are "real life" considerations. How many Corvette owners can afford $400,000? For those with the money, given how fast the Z 06 is on the street, is it worth spending it on another Corvette vs the alternatives?
Even at $250-300,000 this becomes an expensive proposition, and now you are putting the Corvette on the same stage as most supercars except those in the stratosphere, like the Bugatti, Koenigsegg, or Pagani, etc., and asking those who seriously consider such cars, to buy a "Corvette". Who knows, but it seems like a stretch to me. Best
At present you can buy a Mclaren 675 LT or Lamborghini Aventador for that money. Allot of famous brands with more panache, to choose from.
There are "real life" considerations. How many Corvette owners can afford $400,000? For those with the money, given how fast the Z 06 is on the street, is it worth spending it on another Corvette vs the alternatives?
Even at $250-300,000 this becomes an expensive proposition, and now you are putting the Corvette on the same stage as most supercars except those in the stratosphere, like the Bugatti, Koenigsegg, or Pagani, etc., and asking those who seriously consider such cars, to buy a "Corvette". Who knows, but it seems like a stretch to me. Best
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Atascadero California
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,369
Likes: 179
From: Road Atlanta You do the MATH!
Mid engine is a gimmick because of the blind fanboyism. The Corvette's and Vipers, rules not withstanding, have been whooping up on rear mid engine cars for decades now, on the street and on the track, with much less money invested. Imagine a CF chassis and exotic materials on today's Vette/Viper weighing in at 3200 lbs....... Game over.
Look around and see who's beating these two........ Audi? nope, Ferrari? nope Lambo? Nope. Porsche barely with a million dollar electric AWD car or McLaren with the P1 at 10x the amount.
The only thing you are buying with mid engine is more cost to buy, and more cost to maintain. I will bet you this means the Z06 will not get DCT for a while. They will need the differentiation to sell this new car. They will need every edge they can get.
Look around and see who's beating these two........ Audi? nope, Ferrari? nope Lambo? Nope. Porsche barely with a million dollar electric AWD car or McLaren with the P1 at 10x the amount.
The only thing you are buying with mid engine is more cost to buy, and more cost to maintain. I will bet you this means the Z06 will not get DCT for a while. They will need the differentiation to sell this new car. They will need every edge they can get.