absolutely matches what we see here:
Code name Zerv
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 16,062
Likes: 4,148
From: Bergen county NJ
Well then buddy. GM already makes your inexpensive Vett. See C7 Stingray/ GS. There your dream car.
Many off us want more than that from our cars.
Drive a 458 Italia then tell me that the Corvette Z06/ Z07 is not full of compromises. I have a 458 and it's in a different league completely. Not because Ferrari has better technology it's because they build the best car with the best materials and then charge for what they build.
There no comparison. I love the Corvette and I currently have number 12 or so with a 2016 Z06 Z07 Callaway SC757. It's a 130k plus car and still has major compromises. Namely the Interior quality is exactly what you get in a 3lt Stingray. So a car costing 2 times the cost of a Stingray still has the exact same interior expect for badging. The paint work is exactly like a 55k inexpensive entry level Vett. Yes 55k is inexpensive. Heck there are Ford Mustang and Chevrolet Camero that cost more than a Stingray.
In addition the A8 that GM promised was on par with Porsche PDK is no where close to compare with the PFK or the Getrag DCT in the Ferrari. The A8 is terrible in comparison in both auto mode and shift speed is a joke for a 130k car.
There 30k VW that have faster shift quality than the top of line Corvette. That the compromise GM makes to keep guys like you happy.
GM compromised on this 130k car and it has the same transmission that comes in my Chevrolet High Country pick up truck.
BTW The DCT is going to be far more than a 4 k option. Porsche built the own transmission in house and it comes as standard transmission on everything from a Cayman to the Cayenne SUV.
So some of us want the best car GM can build and are more than willing to pay for the privilege of owning one.
It's not that we jerks off to 250k sports car but we are educated enough to understand that you don't spend 60k and get a car with the same refinement the as a 250k car.
So again your cheap that cool and is why you could by 10 ZR1 as you state and everyone will be a compromised 140k car with a 60k interior and a truck motor and transmission. But yes that a great deal for those of us that want a real super car built by GM.
Others of us too who worked hard and appreciate the refinement that comes with a European super car and we are willing to pay for it.
So don't be a dick because other would like GM to show the world that they too can build a refined super car and one that does not need a asterisk about what a great performer it is for the money.
Not everyone has unrealistic expectation. We just want GM to build a world class car with No Compromises.
That does not make us jerks offs. In fact I see it just the opposite. Some jerks off want 200k technology but want to pay 60k.
Many off us want more than that from our cars.
Drive a 458 Italia then tell me that the Corvette Z06/ Z07 is not full of compromises. I have a 458 and it's in a different league completely. Not because Ferrari has better technology it's because they build the best car with the best materials and then charge for what they build.
There no comparison. I love the Corvette and I currently have number 12 or so with a 2016 Z06 Z07 Callaway SC757. It's a 130k plus car and still has major compromises. Namely the Interior quality is exactly what you get in a 3lt Stingray. So a car costing 2 times the cost of a Stingray still has the exact same interior expect for badging. The paint work is exactly like a 55k inexpensive entry level Vett. Yes 55k is inexpensive. Heck there are Ford Mustang and Chevrolet Camero that cost more than a Stingray.
In addition the A8 that GM promised was on par with Porsche PDK is no where close to compare with the PFK or the Getrag DCT in the Ferrari. The A8 is terrible in comparison in both auto mode and shift speed is a joke for a 130k car.
There 30k VW that have faster shift quality than the top of line Corvette. That the compromise GM makes to keep guys like you happy.
GM compromised on this 130k car and it has the same transmission that comes in my Chevrolet High Country pick up truck.
BTW The DCT is going to be far more than a 4 k option. Porsche built the own transmission in house and it comes as standard transmission on everything from a Cayman to the Cayenne SUV.
So some of us want the best car GM can build and are more than willing to pay for the privilege of owning one.
It's not that we jerks off to 250k sports car but we are educated enough to understand that you don't spend 60k and get a car with the same refinement the as a 250k car.
So again your cheap that cool and is why you could by 10 ZR1 as you state and everyone will be a compromised 140k car with a 60k interior and a truck motor and transmission. But yes that a great deal for those of us that want a real super car built by GM.
Others of us too who worked hard and appreciate the refinement that comes with a European super car and we are willing to pay for it.
So don't be a dick because other would like GM to show the world that they too can build a refined super car and one that does not need a asterisk about what a great performer it is for the money.
Not everyone has unrealistic expectation. We just want GM to build a world class car with No Compromises.
That does not make us jerks offs. In fact I see it just the opposite. Some jerks off want 200k technology but want to pay 60k.
I'm a member there for over a decade, friendly, respectful and I never insult those owners whose older Ferraris might not be able to keep up with corvettes on a racetrack much less daily duty.
That would be a low class thing to do.
I find your continual bragging and ongoing demeaning tone towards those of us who don't want to spend six figures on any car to be really low class. I can as I read your quoted response see your supposed education and refinement in your text. I can easily see you are literally foaming at the mouth at my response to your ongoing disrespect of others. Bottom line....
You couldn't carry my water as a human being for a day much less a month.
You don't know who I am or what my priorities are..
I definitely got a clear picture of your priorities though and I'm not impressed.
all that said..I believe the c8 rear mid engine will have a slightly elevated pricing structure similiar to the present corvette c7 that ranges from 55 to 140 grand..give or take a few grand so we will all have choices and be happy.
Last edited by JerriVette; Dec 27, 2017 at 12:01 AM.
Stick Shift Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,467
Likes: 2,656
From: Troy & Dearborn, Michigan
Things are fluid, and lots of sources are clamming up due to the which hunt going on inside of GM right now. But, my understanding is that the V8 TT is for a Cadillac. There was an LT5 for a Corvette version, and a larger "super engine" which may not have even gotten off the ground design wise as it had some significantly high targets.
These drawings do draw into question some previously shared things such as the manual transmission option, there not being a TT option, etc.
So I'm actually sorta thrown here. I'm as in the dark as anyone at this point.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 11,905
Likes: 2,148
And for those who want that engine, MB can help ya out with that:
The driving dynamics and physical sensations are jaw-droppingly different than my Z06.
BUT the Z06 can keep up performance-wise with a 458 easily.
WOW!
Exactly...and there is nothing wrong with that.
Last edited by sunsalem; Dec 26, 2017 at 11:49 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 16,062
Likes: 4,148
From: Bergen county NJ
Wasn't the Cadillac version of the rear mid engine corvette supposed to do battle with the Audi R8? And hasn't that Audi awd rear mid engine halo vehicles replacement been reportedly cancelled..?
Reports in this weeks news are that in 2020 the Audi R8 is dead.
Cadillacs present top man, Johan De Nysschen stated in his earlier "sophisticated" vision for Cadillac (which has been an utter failure by most measures) that Cadillac "needed" an R8 like halo product for the brand to become successful at selling sedans and cuvs.
De Nysschen was brought over from Audi to recreate his efforts at Cadillac. While heading up Audi he commissioned the R8 halo vehicle to be brought to production.
I believe Audi shared platform and other technology with sister brand Lamborghini to defray some of the production costs.
Shame that Audi has just signaled this week the R8 is dead come 2020.
Some interesting questions might be..
Will the Cadillac rear mid engine ever make it to production at bowling green?
What will be its competition? Especially now that Audi has signaled the R 8 's demise come 2020..
What engine will the rear mid engine Cadillac utilize if in fact it does come to market?
Could that be the engine we are presently seeing in twin turbo form here?
It's been speculated that the Cadillac division funded a large portion of bowling green expansion including the new paint shop...
Much of the original research and development work for the upcoming rear mid engine corvette was paid for and cast off during the 2009 financial meltdown with the "old GM " bankruptcy. Based off of these notions I believe the upcoming c8 will be able to maintain GM s existing corvette pricing structure and deliver an amazing product delivering supercar levels of performance at reasonable pricing. A true corvette tradition which has contributed to the corvette being an iconic American brand now at 65 years running.
I for one hope the Cadillac version comes to market and can deliver the utmost in luxury and quality to meet and exceed the desires of such members as my new found forum friend vetteman41960 where spending more money to get the utmost in refinement is of paramount concern.
As a gesture of good faith...and civility ...hopefully vetteman41960 can find what he is looking for at the Cadillac division...
Supposedly that is or was De Nysschen's original master plan...
Reports in this weeks news are that in 2020 the Audi R8 is dead.
Cadillacs present top man, Johan De Nysschen stated in his earlier "sophisticated" vision for Cadillac (which has been an utter failure by most measures) that Cadillac "needed" an R8 like halo product for the brand to become successful at selling sedans and cuvs.
De Nysschen was brought over from Audi to recreate his efforts at Cadillac. While heading up Audi he commissioned the R8 halo vehicle to be brought to production.
I believe Audi shared platform and other technology with sister brand Lamborghini to defray some of the production costs.
Shame that Audi has just signaled this week the R8 is dead come 2020.
Some interesting questions might be..
Will the Cadillac rear mid engine ever make it to production at bowling green?
What will be its competition? Especially now that Audi has signaled the R 8 's demise come 2020..
What engine will the rear mid engine Cadillac utilize if in fact it does come to market?
Could that be the engine we are presently seeing in twin turbo form here?
It's been speculated that the Cadillac division funded a large portion of bowling green expansion including the new paint shop...
Much of the original research and development work for the upcoming rear mid engine corvette was paid for and cast off during the 2009 financial meltdown with the "old GM " bankruptcy. Based off of these notions I believe the upcoming c8 will be able to maintain GM s existing corvette pricing structure and deliver an amazing product delivering supercar levels of performance at reasonable pricing. A true corvette tradition which has contributed to the corvette being an iconic American brand now at 65 years running.
I for one hope the Cadillac version comes to market and can deliver the utmost in luxury and quality to meet and exceed the desires of such members as my new found forum friend vetteman41960 where spending more money to get the utmost in refinement is of paramount concern.
As a gesture of good faith...and civility ...hopefully vetteman41960 can find what he is looking for at the Cadillac division...
Supposedly that is or was De Nysschen's original master plan...
Last edited by JerriVette; Dec 27, 2017 at 01:02 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 976
Likes: 1,080
Ferrarichat might better serve you.
I'm a member there for over a decade, friendly, respectful and I never insult those owners whose older Ferraris might not be able to keep up with corvettes on a racetrack much less daily duty.
That would be a low class thing to do.
I find your continual bragging and ongoing demeaning tone towards those of us who don't want to spend six figures on any car to be really low class. I can as I read your quoted response see your supposed education and refinement in your text. I can easily see you are literally foaming at the mouth at my response to your ongoing disrespect of others. Bottom line....
You couldn't carry my water as a human being for a day much less a month.
You don't know who I am or what my priorities are..
I definitely got a clear picture of your priorities though and I'm not impressed.
all that said..I believe the c8 rear mid engine will have a slightly elevated pricing structure similiar to the present corvette c7 that ranges from 55 to 140 grand..give or take a few grand so we will all have choices and be happy.
I'm a member there for over a decade, friendly, respectful and I never insult those owners whose older Ferraris might not be able to keep up with corvettes on a racetrack much less daily duty.
That would be a low class thing to do.
I find your continual bragging and ongoing demeaning tone towards those of us who don't want to spend six figures on any car to be really low class. I can as I read your quoted response see your supposed education and refinement in your text. I can easily see you are literally foaming at the mouth at my response to your ongoing disrespect of others. Bottom line....
You couldn't carry my water as a human being for a day much less a month.
You don't know who I am or what my priorities are..
I definitely got a clear picture of your priorities though and I'm not impressed.
all that said..I believe the c8 rear mid engine will have a slightly elevated pricing structure similiar to the present corvette c7 that ranges from 55 to 140 grand..give or take a few grand so we will all have choices and be happy.
I have had a love a fair with cars ever since. Bought my 1st Corvette at 16 years old. 73 roadster that was $3500.00 at the time.
I have been lucky enough to earn a good living in the automotive business.
So I don't drink don't do drugs or take expensive vacation.
What I do is treat myself to some of the finest cars in the world that are within my financial means.
I would like GM to show the world that they still can set the standard for the rest of the world as they did back in the Fifties and sixties.
I guarantee if you met me you have no idea that I had a small collection of sports card or owned expensive vehicle. Heck my daily is a Chevrolet Pickup.
So while we differ in what we want out of the future Corvette it sound like we both love Corvette and cars in general.
As far as the Ferrari forum I met a lot of guys just like me that bought a Ferrari because they love cars.
After all we can't take it with us. So maybe I am a little older and at the pint in life were I can finally treat myself. Kids grown and trough College. House finally paid off and lucky enough to be able to treat myself to some fun owing cars I have always wanted.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 998
Likes: 122
http://www.businessinsider.com/photo...-huayra-2013-1
how many unicorn frequency vehicles has gm put into production so far?
how many are on the drawing boards?
how many are they likely to build in the foreseeable future?
Z E R O
why? because they are in the mass production business.
also, this is just a guess on my part, but i believe that they would like to build all corvettes as mid engine a few years down the road, or at least are testing the water by seeing how those sales go. if sales are a success, they can stop building the front engine models; if not, they will keep building them.
but if they don't build some entry level priced mid engine models, they will have no choice other than keeping the front engine models in production.
Last edited by senah; Dec 27, 2017 at 03:33 AM.
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Miles of Smiles
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,180
Likes: 559
From: Omaha Nebraska
2016 C5 of the Year Finalist
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,108
Likes: 755
From: Bridgewater NJ
here's just what you're looking for.
http://www.businessinsider.com/photo...-huayra-2013-1
how many unicorn frequency vehicles has gm put into production so far?
how many are on the drawing boards?
how many are they likely to build in the foreseeable future?
Z E R O
why? because they are in the mass production business.
also, this is just a guess on my part, but i believe that they would like to build all corvettes as mid engine a few years down the road, or at least are testing the water by seeing how those sales go. if sales are a success, they can stop building the front engine models; if not, they will keep building them.
but if they don't build some entry level priced mid engine models, they will have no choice other than keeping the front engine models in production.
http://www.businessinsider.com/photo...-huayra-2013-1
how many unicorn frequency vehicles has gm put into production so far?
how many are on the drawing boards?
how many are they likely to build in the foreseeable future?
Z E R O
why? because they are in the mass production business.
also, this is just a guess on my part, but i believe that they would like to build all corvettes as mid engine a few years down the road, or at least are testing the water by seeing how those sales go. if sales are a success, they can stop building the front engine models; if not, they will keep building them.
but if they don't build some entry level priced mid engine models, they will have no choice other than keeping the front engine models in production.
I think GM is capable of creating a car with a base price > $100k, and I'm hoping that's what the ME is. For all the reasons already stated. Hopefully the C8 will be a refined C7 and the ME will be a new line.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,168
Likes: 1,336
From: FLL Florida
Team Owner
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 34,551
Likes: 505
From: Auburn Hills MI
The only way GM will produce a car at that price that matches the quality is if they do not do it the GM way.
A perfect example is the ATS-V. I have talked to many owners of M3's, S4's, AMG's who all have said the exact same thing.
I would have bought an ATS-V if it were not for the interior. The car was good enough to get around the name but the interior is garbage in a car at its price point.
GM's problem always have been "it's good enough" in regards to certain aspects of high priced cars. BMW fell into that trap with their interior quality going way down and they started to correct it but they are still along way off from Mercedes, Audi, or even Alfa if you get the right package.
Make no mistake the American auto makers lack of competitiveness in certain area's is a choice, not a lack of talent or skill. What can they get away with not what they are capable of.
A perfect example is the ATS-V. I have talked to many owners of M3's, S4's, AMG's who all have said the exact same thing.
I would have bought an ATS-V if it were not for the interior. The car was good enough to get around the name but the interior is garbage in a car at its price point.
GM's problem always have been "it's good enough" in regards to certain aspects of high priced cars. BMW fell into that trap with their interior quality going way down and they started to correct it but they are still along way off from Mercedes, Audi, or even Alfa if you get the right package.
Make no mistake the American auto makers lack of competitiveness in certain area's is a choice, not a lack of talent or skill. What can they get away with not what they are capable of.
Last edited by NoOne; Dec 27, 2017 at 08:42 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 939
Likes: 52
From: The Woodlands Texas
I think it is silly to compare Ferrari with Corvette in the first place. Different market, different volume, literally NO common ground.
Now, to call Ferrari the "best car with the best materials" is just as silly. There is literally an entire INDUSTRY of guys (like forum member Todd Cooperider) who make plenty of money doing VERY EXPENSIVE paint correction on NEW Ferraris. There are guys that do nothing but re-finish Ferrari "soft feel" dashboard trim and controls when, at 2 years old, they become sticky and gooey (fail, in other words).
Ferrari builds great cars and charges what the market will bear. But, while many Corvette owners are guilty of drinking the Kool-Aid, Ferrari has more than it's fair share of the same type owner/fans/loyalist. (they bought the FF.....I rest my case. NO Ferrari should ever be UGLY).
Now, to call Ferrari the "best car with the best materials" is just as silly. There is literally an entire INDUSTRY of guys (like forum member Todd Cooperider) who make plenty of money doing VERY EXPENSIVE paint correction on NEW Ferraris. There are guys that do nothing but re-finish Ferrari "soft feel" dashboard trim and controls when, at 2 years old, they become sticky and gooey (fail, in other words).
Ferrari builds great cars and charges what the market will bear. But, while many Corvette owners are guilty of drinking the Kool-Aid, Ferrari has more than it's fair share of the same type owner/fans/loyalist. (they bought the FF.....I rest my case. NO Ferrari should ever be UGLY).
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 551
From: North California
Your absolutely right on this (including the FF). However, the issue I take with GM is that they use the exact same materials on extremely lower priced cars and put them in $130k cars and think we should not notice. The 3ZR elephant skin interior in my car is crap really and my dash shrank too. This is not an uncommon problem either. So its not a result of the materials itself but the adhesion method applied which is across the board. I would expect higher quality materials in the interior for the upcoming ME or I for one will spend my money elsewhere. Therein lies the debate for me.
So I must agree with NoOne's quote that "GM's problem always have been "it's good enough" in regards to certain aspects of high priced cars."
Except there is a "good enough" mentality in critical aspects of engineering. I forget how many man hours GM said they put in the engine tune for the Gen V small block. But all those hours and you get a tune that runs like **** on 91 octane and it's made to compensate for the uneven brick cooling by limping the engine. Why wasn't there someone in the decision making chain that could force an intercooler revision?
GM needs to figure out how to go back to square one when they find trouble, not to cover it up and release the car as is.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,131
Likes: 671
In mho as a poor boy GM must make this new car for the people that have bought Corvettes over the years. I submit that somebody that owns a Ferrari a big old fancy truck and has had 12 Corvettes is not the typical Corvette buyer. If they continue to make the C7 I just don't think people are going to buy many of them ..WHY? They already have one. Look at the sales now...FLAT. If the ME engine is not out in a reasonable time I won't get another one.
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 195
Likes: 74
From: Huntsville AL
I tried to stay out of this one hoping it would die down, but this thread has divulged so much that I'll jump in. I really think all this talk of prices, etc should be a new thread and leave this one clean for when/if Zerv comes back with more goodies and discussion of the CAD.
GM is targeting a younger audience; they did so with the C7 and they'll continue doing so.
The younger audience isn't able to afford the high price. The issue you have, Vetteman, is that you don't want a Corvette... you want a higher end model. The Corvette is the poor man's Ferrari... we want the mid-engine C8 CORVETTE, you want a mid-engine completely NEW MODEL. Asking to price most of the forum members here out of the next generation isn't going to buy many friends.
GM is targeting a younger audience; they did so with the C7 and they'll continue doing so.
The younger audience isn't able to afford the high price. The issue you have, Vetteman, is that you don't want a Corvette... you want a higher end model. The Corvette is the poor man's Ferrari... we want the mid-engine C8 CORVETTE, you want a mid-engine completely NEW MODEL. Asking to price most of the forum members here out of the next generation isn't going to buy many friends.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 551
From: North California
^ this is true.
The expensive part is that GM does not have an MR platform. When Mercedes decided to make a 911 competitor they made a deal with Aston Martin to effectively borrow their FMR platform in exchange for their infotainment stack and V8 turbo. Mercedes made a GT R, Aston improved their interior and engine tech with Mereceds goods.
GM will have to build it from scratch. It's not so much that it's mid engine, it's that it is build from scratch. The only way to keep it cheap at this point is to reuse the Gen V small block, which I'm sure they will for the entry level Corvette. Still, the price will go up.
The expensive part is that GM does not have an MR platform. When Mercedes decided to make a 911 competitor they made a deal with Aston Martin to effectively borrow their FMR platform in exchange for their infotainment stack and V8 turbo. Mercedes made a GT R, Aston improved their interior and engine tech with Mereceds goods.
GM will have to build it from scratch. It's not so much that it's mid engine, it's that it is build from scratch. The only way to keep it cheap at this point is to reuse the Gen V small block, which I'm sure they will for the entry level Corvette. Still, the price will go up.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; Dec 27, 2017 at 05:07 PM.
Stick Shift Enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,467
Likes: 2,656
From: Troy & Dearborn, Michigan
Some are just better at hiding it than others. The German's have engaged in significant cost cutting on the back side. Things like suspension bushings and other "durability" items will wear out faster in those cars than in US cars. They aren't designed to take the road abuse that US cars are designed to over 150,000 miles.
This however is OK with the initial customer as they keep the car at most 5 years, so all the "problems" are left to the second customer. And some of those "problems" others view as "typical maintenance." I'm not a fan of changing out bushings on cars, so to me its a premature failure.
Look at the used market, that is where US cars are coveted. Because what's already broken is broke, that which isn't will last until the car disintegrates.
