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As I say in my C8 Hybrid PDF, I'm not a tree hugger and like you am not happy BUT far prefer a FWD Hybrid to an EV!
Have a C8 on order and IF I get a C8 Grand Sport for the FWD and 345 section width rear tires I'll try to use a heavy throttle so I have both motors activated. However when going into town (~20 miles) there are sections where I'll be driving such that it would be in hybrid only mode. Have to get past the noise issue by playing the sound system louder! It's now on 95% of the time on my 2017 Grand Sport to drown out tire and road noise! When the throttle is floored will still hear the ICE exhaust and perhaps the high pitch sound of the 16,000 rpm electric motor!
Now I'll still enjoy my ProStreet Rod with it's 502 cid BB I assembled from some 30 boxes with it's tubbed 16.5 section width rear tires! It gets about 10 mpg! Can always build your own, as I did, or as you say drive an old Vette.
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As I say in my C8 Hybrid PDF, I'm not a tree hugger and like you am not happy BUT far prefer a FWD Hybrid to an EV!
Have a C8 on order and IF I get a C8 Grand Sport for the FWD and 345 section width rear tires I'll try to use a heavy throttle so I have both motors activated. However when going into town (~20 miles) there are sections where I'll be driving such that it would be in hybrid only mode. Have to get past the noise issue by playing the sound system louder! It's now on 95% of the time on my 2017 Grand Sport to drown out tire and road noise! When the throttle is floored will still hear the ICE exhaust and perhaps the high pitch sound of the 16,000 rpm electric motor!
Now I'll still enjoy my ProStreet Rod with it's 502 cid BB I assembled from some 30 boxes with it's tubbed 16.5 section width rear tires! It gets about 10 mpg! Can always build your own, as I did, or as you say drive an old Vette.
Love the pro street rod, that is really nice
Ya for sure, I could see you weren't a tree hugger and I appreciated the insite into what the Corvette designers face. I live in Canada and the tree huggers are already in power here so gas is already over $7 CAD a gallon here, complete with large federal and provincal carbon tax. All new cars MUST be 100% electric in my province by 2040. The politics of it may tear my country apart as the two sides of that debate clash going forward. rant over
Back to the Corvette:
Now if GM puts in some sort of 'performance mode' in the C8 so the LT2 stays running when your cruising around and idles at a stop light then that would take care of most of my concerns.
Honestly, they could solve all of them if in this suggested 'performance mode' you can also shift manually...and to accomodate the die hard manual drivers they could install a stick shift and clutch pedal that are controlled by wire and only active during that mode and they could put them in all C8's for proabbly not much money, then every corvette could effectively by auto or manual and everyone would be happy.
That way you could have the choice of driving the C8 in eco-gas saving mode or in a more traditional performance mode for fun.
So I think there is a way GM could still make the Corvette fun, but i'm not sure they will....
I'm guessing they could make a hybrid work with a manual, maybe with some compromises to overall efficiency.
There were some hybrids early on that used very small cid engines and hybrids to provide more power when needed. None available now nor did they start the ICE at around cruising speed! IMO don't think you can have the LT2 start as you approach cruising speed as that can not be in 1st gear. As I jokingly say, "Need a message in HUD to say, please put it in ~5th gear we're staring the LT2 in 2 seconds!"
Fact is, IMO you need a computer to define the gear choice even when you are driving aggressively and want to engage the FWD. That will depend on throttle position, probably where the wheel is turned etc etc. Just consider all the inputs they have to define what gear the DCT is in (listed below!) This is not your grandmothers DCT- the technology has moved from just few yeas ago. As Tadge also said in that video, they have incorporated many DCT options. As stated below, note in M mode it operates like a manual. I will even hit the rev limiter! Note Tadge said he never bought a car without a standard shift! I'm ahead of him since I'm older! The C8 will be my first DD in 60 years without a third pedal BUT I'm willing to move on. Recently talked to a wealthy old gearhead that has several current DCT sports cars and I asked when he uses manual mode- he said always! We'll see if learning how and when to use all the DCT features compensates for me loving to row gears! .
Tadge in that video said no one would supply the needed trans and if you were Tremic and knew in a few years they were going to Hybrids and a manual would not work (since Tremic is no doubt working on now to integrate the trans with starting at speed and with the FWD activation) would you make a standard shift for a few years?? AND GM doesn't need it for 2020 and 2021 to sell all the C8s they can make! Wonder if that is why Ferrari started no standard shifts 3/4 years ago? They are ahead GM on hybrids with their F1 KERS starting ~10 years ago and their Laferrari hybrid was introduced in 2015! Bet their trans suppliers knew about that 60% hybrids in 2022 some years ago!
This is a list of the C8 DCT features from GM’s DCT Controls Manager with Tadge’s last C8 Forum Post. Pretty impressive options:
The C8 DCT transmission has different automatic shift strategies for the various drive modes, which adapt in real time. The more aggressive, the more spirited you drive, the more aggressive the car's responds, -start to relax, the car starts to relax.
· The DCT uses latitudinal and longitudinal accelerometers, and looks at information like throttle position and steering angle to gauge how the car is being driven, and react accordingly. In Track mode set to automatic, the car will downshift aggressively when the driver is braking hard into a corner, and hold upshifts until corner exit.
· The C8 has two manual modes. If you pull a paddle while in Drive, you get a temporary manual mode, which automatically times out, or can be exited sooner by holding the upshift paddle. In this mode, the car will automatically upshift at redline. If you press the M button in the center console, you get full manual mode. There's no time out, and the car won't upshift at redline.
· Hold the downshift paddle, the DCT will serve up the lowest possible gear. Do that while braking, and the transmission will keep downshifting as engine speed allows.
· Pulling both paddles at the same time is equivalent to pushing in the clutch pedal on a manual car, which allows you to rev the C8's new V-8 as much as you want.
· The paddles are directly wired to the transmission control module (TCM) for quicker response times. This doesn't mean the paddles will give you a downshift that over-revs the engine—the TCM prevents that.
· With the C8's Performance Launch mode, the car uses the inertia of the engine coming down between revs to propel the car forward.
Per Tadge’s latest Forum post, you can avoid V4 mode using the “M” manual button or temporally for 5 seconds after pulling the last shift paddle.
Honda, VW Making Wildly Different Bets on Our Electric Future
Car & Driver Dec 28, 2019
Volkswagen says a million people a year will buy VW EVs three years from now. Honda's CEO says people want fuel efficiency, not EVs. Who's right and how soon will we know?
Volkswagen speeds up its electric vehicle production plans by two years. A million annually will now happen in 2023 instead of 2025.
Honda Motor's CEO, on the other hand, still sees hybrids as critically important and doesn't think people actually want EVs.
Agree with Honda, most don't want EV's IMO and no good way to generate all the electrical power to replace fossil fuel! Yep France with 75% Nuclear power might have a solution but after our SC financial fiasco trying to build a Nuclear power plant doubt anyone will try.
And Germany is a joke! They won't allow nuclear and just paid for a huge pipeline to get natural gas from Russia! Guess they will use that to generate electricity until Russia gets mad some winter and shuts it down!
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4200+ lbs?? Not by my rough calculations! Hybrid will be lighter than an EV!
It's a small battery compared to a Prius etc. More like a ~30 lb F1 KERS battery that delivers 160 hp for a short time.
AWD adds a few hundred plus the electric motors and batteries and LOTS OF HEAVY DUTY wiring. Oh ya...4200 for a 3LT equipped car. And kiss goodbye to the frunk. But with Blizzaks on it will be fun in the snow in “speed bump” setting.
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Pic below is from the "leaked" C8 Hybrid article (if you haven't read, link is in post #1.) The battery is relatively small and using the leaked storage capacity and comparing with larger batteries in the Prius and Bolt it could weight 80 to 100 lbs. The F1 KERS battery weights only ~30 lbs and delivers 160 hp (albeit short duration.)
That center motor drive system is available off the shelf and used in a number of FWD cars. At only 114 hp could be about ~100 lbs. Note it sits below the Frunk, but it's capacity will no doubt be less. The leaked info also mentions how the axle's get past the coilovers, via a split lower mount that has a hole!
Yep it will add weight BUT at that lower 114 hp level the C8 will be under 4000 lbs! BTW, GM is developing NOT for "having fun in snow" but to meet the future "Government dictated (Federal or CA with 5+ other states)" mpg requirements! When they started the C8 detailed design (2013/2014 per a recent Tadge interview) they had no choice as the Federal government plan was needing for the Corvette Family to have ~40 average mpg in 2025!) They no doubt included the FWD Hybrid in their initial designs.
When driving aggressively you get the benefit of faster 0 to 60 times and faster acceleration out of a turn when Tracking etc! In fact the performance benefits are all GM will talk about until the "Government dictates" the mpg requirement as that is NOT GM's or Most Vette Owner's Desire!
PIC From Article (with my added available motor axle system.)
AWD adds a few hundred plus the electric motors and batteries and LOTS OF HEAVY DUTY wiring. Oh ya...4200 for a 3LT equipped car. And kiss goodbye to the frunk. But with Blizzaks on it will be fun in the snow in “speed bump” setting.
At the higher price point GM can put some better materials in the car and largely offset the weight gain of the relatively small motor and battery.
Use of super capacitors would provide even lighter KERS capability. The c8 indeed is too heavy already with the luxo trim that everyone wants, eDiff, eShocks, all that wiring and controllers does add weight.
As GM matures the platform, the ICE engine is likely not long for this world. If corvette can produce a high performing hybrid, that weighs less than the current car, and leaves it in the dust, you'll likely complain that it doesn't make the right noises.
Technology marches on, and corvette will not be a luxo barge any worse than it is now. GM is in business to sell cars and by going more luxury, smooth performance, and quiet, they attract a broader market.
Strip all the lard out of the c8 (c8r) and you have a much better track car. Electrics are indeed going racing, and like it or not, coming to the vette. Your estimates are off, but then I wouldn't have guessed the c8 would weigh more than the c7
vette is getting a bit too much towards the "caddivette" as it's what most customers have been asking for.
At the higher price point GM can put some better materials in the car and largely offset the weight gain of the relatively small motor and battery.
Use of super capacitors would provide even lighter KERS capability. The c8 indeed is too heavy already with the luxo trim that everyone wants, eDiff, eShocks, all that wiring and controllers does add weight.
As GM matures the platform, the ICE engine is likely not long for this world. If corvette can produce a high performing hybrid, that weighs less than the current car, and leaves it in the dust, you'll likely complain that it doesn't make the right noises.
Technology marches on, and corvette will not be a luxo barge any worse than it is now. GM is in business to sell cars and by going more luxury, smooth performance, and quiet, they attract a broader market.
Strip all the lard out of the c8 (c8r) and you have a much better track car. Electrics are indeed going racing, and like it or not, coming to the vette. Your estimates are off, but then I wouldn't have guessed the c8 would weigh more than the c7
vette is getting a bit too much towards the "caddivette" as it's what most customers have been asking for.
Like you I WISH for a lighter car, but everything points in the other direction. Even without hydrid AWD the gens have been getting heavier. The addittion of AWD and hybrid and everything else that seems to become a “necessity” as time goes on is sure to add weight. I will be extatic if the car comes in at under 2 ton loaded. It won’t be cheap to do that IMO. I hope the offer a hi po stripped model without the hybrid. I’d be happy to pay the guzzler tax to get it.
At the higher price point GM can put some better materials in the car and largely offset the weight gain of the relatively small motor and battery.
Use of super capacitors would provide even lighter KERS capability. The c8 indeed is too heavy already with the luxo trim that everyone wants, eDiff, eShocks, all that wiring and controllers does add weight.
As GM matures the platform, the ICE engine is likely not long for this world. If corvette can produce a high performing hybrid, that weighs less than the current car, and leaves it in the dust, you'll likely complain that it doesn't make the right noises.
Technology marches on, and corvette will not be a luxo barge any worse than it is now. GM is in business to sell cars and by going more luxury, smooth performance, and quiet, they attract a broader market.
Strip all the lard out of the c8 (c8r) and you have a much better track car. Electrics are indeed going racing, and like it or not, coming to the vette. Your estimates are off, but then I wouldn't have guessed the c8 would weigh more than the c7 vette is getting a bit too much towards the "caddivette" as it's what most customers have been asking for.
Interesting points but like many who "hoped" the C8 would be lighter- so did Tadge with no need for the heavy driveshaft and torque tube! He said that and gave reasons for the heavier weight (in addition to the mentioned government added crash requirements) in the recent 1 hour long interview in Autoline Overnight:
Coil springs add weight compared to the light weight composite transverse springs.
The structural support needed for the coil springs adds weight and higher CD.
The center structure support helps with rigidity. That was a key part of having the suspension working as designed so it is not moving like an undamped spring. That was required to avoid the potential handling issues in a rear heavy car that at the limit can make it feel like it’s “going away.”
That center support structure stiffness required a 5mm alumimum plate held with bolts to close the bottom.
The 9mm glass separating the engine is twice the windshield thickness to reduce motor the accessor drives high pitched noise. Found that heavy glass on a Ferrari they stripped when looking at the competition.
The DCT is inherently heavier as the needed cooling adds weight. Cooling is needed as the clutches require and optimum fluid temp to operate properly.
Like your comment, Tadge also mentioned, in the design process they often said, "This would be easy if we weren't constrained by cost!" Yep your comment, "Strip all the lard out of the c8 (c8r) and you have a much better track car," is true BUT that is not what GM is in business to deliver! They make a great sports car at a low price that can sell over 25,000 per year! They also must meet government regulations that will soon included significantly improved mpg!
Like you I WISH for a lighter car, but everything points in the other direction. Even without hydrid AWD the gens have been getting heavier. The addittion of AWD and hybrid and everything else that seems to become a “necessity” as time goes on is sure to add weight. I will be extatic if the car comes in at under 2 ton loaded. It won’t be cheap to do that IMO. I hope the offer a hi po stripped model without the hybrid. I’d be happy to pay the guzzler tax to get it.
Yep, GM could do what Ferrari did with the 488 GT3, for the >$200,000 premium over the base car that some “well healed customers” paid!
Ferrari sent the car back to the drawing board to improve aerodynamics. Over 18,000 hours of calculations and simulations went into the revised front end alone, along with extensive wind tunnel testing. Subtle tweaks — such as the addition of a pair of flicks and tuning vanes for the front splitter — help improve downforce and stability.
They lengthened the car’s wheelbase, to help reduce tire wear.
The Evo gets a redesigned seat Ferrari claims is both more robust and lighter and made changes to the car’s electronic aids, including the traction control and anti-lock brakes.
Too rich for your blood? Perhaps the Ferrari Pista would be a better choice, it’s only ~$100,000 over the ~$250,000 base 488!
As far as "You paying a Gas Guzzler Tax," don't think some understand the improved mpg issue! If you want to see what is coming, read the 1174 page government publication I show in post #6 in this thread. (Pic of parts of 2 pages below showing the mpg requirement for the Corvette and Silverado .Don't need to read it all unless you like statistics and math as it lists every car and light truck model and shows calculations for the mpg goals for each.) It's been on hold for ~2 1/2 years and when a version is implemented, which won't be the same ~40 mpg reequipment for the "Corvette Family," BUT even if it's ~30 mpg it will require as a minimum of a hybrid. We'll know in December 2020 just how onerous it will be (if not sooner as expect the current administration will reach some agreement with California as auto manufacturers can't base future car plans on who wins elections!)
In any case, it's NOT the buyer paying a "gas guzzler tax" (although that will still exist) it's the car manufacturer paying a very high fine based on how much the defined "vehicle family" has missed the goal. In GM's case doubt they have as much concern about the Corvette as they do the 550,000 Silverado's they sell each year. That class of "light trucks," spelled out as Silverado in the report, also required ~40 mpg in 2025. Even if it's like the agreement CA reached with Ford/Toyota/VW/BMW in July of 2019, which would be about ~30/35 mpg in 2026, that requires a hybrid or EV.
The goals are based on forcing reduced emissions NOT just allowing "rich folks" just to pay a gas guzzler tax to drive whatever they want! It's big fines to the manufacturer if the defined vehicle family doesn't meet the goal. Oh there will be a fine for the well healed Hollywood types buying low mpg cars BUT most will no doubt buy a high end Tesla for the public appearence as they fly around in their jet plans! That is no doubt why Ferrari's CEO has announced they expect 60% of their cars to be hybrids in 2022!
Jerry but how would GM get a significant efficiency boost using the small battery approach similar to the NSX? An NSX gets 21 combined and if the LT2 C8 is close to the LT1 C7 you’re around 18 mpg prior to electrification. There won’t be near enough energy storage for sustained use to get you into the 30-40 mpg range.
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See my post number 6! There are two ways to promote a FWD hybrid. First, "What all enthusiasts want to hear- better performance!" The other "Based on mpg." However manufacturers of sports cars will only used the mpg benefits when needed for a government dictated, say ~30/35 mpg for the "Corvette family" beit Federal, California, France (where it will be CO2/km driven.) Most customers won't like it BUT when the car stops or is driving slowly you shut off the LT2, AND only start it again when the car is at 30 to 40 mph (in normal driving.) If you look at the EPA city drive cycle in post #6 there are many stops and deceleration periods when the battery can be recharged when braking or coasting!
The car manufacturers will only talk about mpg when they can blame whatever government! Can't blame them! As I show in my PDF, the older Prius for years only had a battery capacity twice what is shown for the C8 hybrid. If one was careful you could get over 50 mpg in town! The heavier nickel-metal hydride battery in the third generation Prius (2010 to 2015,) has a lower capacity of only 1.3 kWh (less than the 1.9 kWh in the leaked C8 hybrid,) weights 93 lbs and the car is rated at 51 mpg city/48 mpg highway. Just checked, the NSX has a battery less than 1 kWh capacity, half of that leaked for the C8 Hybrid!
Just like with an M7 C7, if you look in the Owner's Manual for suggested shift points for best mpg it has shifting out of 1st at 17 mph which activates skip shift and you can only shift to 4th. Then it says shift from 4th to 5th @ 25 mph, 5th to 6th @ 40 mph and 6 to 7th @ 45 mph! That is to get the advertised EPA mpg! If driving casually an A8 computer controlled transmission defines shift speeds! In the EPA mpg test it will also control LT2 restart and will get the high numbers!
Jerry but how would GM get a significant efficiency boost using the small battery approach similar to the NSX? An NSX gets 21 combined and if the LT2 C8 is close to the LT1 C7 you’re around 18 mpg prior to electrification. There won’t be near enough energy storage for sustained use to get you into the 30-40 mpg range.
Looks like the NSX is being promoted like the newest Ferrari SF90 Stradale hybrid- for performance. As I have said, Ferrari, GM etc will NOT promote the mpg feature or perhaps even put the software in to start the ICE until the electric motor brings the car to 30 to 40 mph when cruising normally. They will have a "government" rightfully take the responsibility for requiring that level of mpg or CO2 emissions/km in Europe!
Most folks buying performance sports cars don't want to hear better mpg or have to deal with even Stop/Start! When dictated by the Federal Government, California, France etc etc they will rightfully blame them! The Ferrari CEO did not announce that they expect to sell 60% hybrids in 2022 because they love them! Ferrari and others will be ready to sell performance cars in the US or even just California and the ~5 states that use the California emissions laws. GM won't be left out!
As far as achieving the needed EPA "average" mpg of say ~40 mpg consider what the early Prius achieved with a 4.3 kWh battery in 2013/2014. It achieved 51 City and 48 highway mpg. The EPA average mpg is based on 55% City and 45% Highway. So that average was ~59 mpg. It could also travel ~16 miles on electric power alone. Forgetting the need to travel on electric only, the 1.97 kWh with the right battery that can handle deep discharge should be sufficient on the EPA drive cycles! It's like racing, it only has to meet the rules NOT deliver in every driving condition.
Looking at the EPA City Drive Cycle below, a 1.97 kWh battery can recharge often. So a 114 hp electric motor/battery combo (with the right type battery) should be able to regenerate enough battery capacity with all the stops and coasting to have the electric motor do most of the City 31 minute EPA cycle. My undated PDF estimates the following as a possibility: http://netwelding.com/C8_FWD_Hybrid.pdf
- with 55% of the average mpg based on the City drive cycle of 45 mpg it appears possible with modest Highway mpg! For example, 55% X 45 mpg + 45% X 32 mpg = 39.1 mpg average!
Even on the EPA Highway cycle there are some places where the electric drive can help. One example is when required to accelerate moderately, the C7 will switch from V4 to V8 mode. Now the motor/battery could keep the ICE in 4 cylinder mode. Or even the GM 2 cylinder mode that have in some other V8s. I'm sure GM calculated what was needed to achieve the planned "government requirement." Depending on who wins December 4th we may see the C8 hybrid quickly!
Looks like the EPA finally issued a ruling on the delay in the mpg, cars and light trucks will require, quoting a summary from the March 31 ruling: "According to the new rule, the EPA will require automakers to increase the average fuel economy of their new vehicles by 1.5 percent between model years 2021 and 2026. Eventually, that standard will lead to cars that average about 40 miles per gallon."
As expected, that is much lower then the 2012 ruling that was in place prior to being put on hold in 2017. That ruling (details in this Thread) would have required the Corvette Family (and Silverado Family ect) achieving ~40 mpg by 2025.) California still says they will counter in court AND depending on who wins this November, the ruling can go right back to the 2012 numbers with a stroke of the pen. That lower mpg improvement ruling will require "some" hybrid C8s to increase the average BUT not almost all as the C8s the 2012 rule would have required.
If GM plans on selling the Vette worldwide, these new EPA guidelines won’t change much. Especially since this comes in the middle of 2020 and we’re already looking at 2021/2022 production w uncertainty about where things go from here. The previous EPA numbers no doubt were, or should have been, baked into the product design and strategy. The prudent strategy would be to “stay the course”, IMO.
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First, European (and much of the World) plans for CO2 emissions are much lower than these new EPA numbers provide. They are typically stated in CO2/km. In addition, if you read through my comments on this thread, the GM plan for the C8 MUST HAVE BEENto have mostly hybrid's as by 2025 the Corvette family (as the Porsche sports car and Ferrari families, etc) had to meet ~40 mpg. No doubt why the Ferrari CEO recently said they plan on selling 60% hybrids in 2022. GM MUST have planned that is would happen as outlined in 2012 approved doc by the administration at the time. Until late night November 8, 2016 it was highly likely to be rubber stamped by the "next administration!" In fact, IMO that is why we see the detailed leaked hybrid, with all the details, in the article!
Also interesting, it was just reinforced in a post that Porsche technical folks stated 50% EV sports cars are planned for 2025. That has been said before and the 2025 date is probably not a coincidence. IMO Corvette cannot use the Porsche approach of half EV's to offset low mpg cars. Enough Porsche owner's may pay the high price for a limited range EV sports car to make it a viable solution. A number have the money to pay the high price and just drive their Porsches on weekend to the Country Club! That is not viable with a low cost car like the Vette that only a small percentage buy "just to drive to the Country Club!"
Best hope that the present administration wins this November or we'll be right back to that ~40 mpg goal and most C8's will be hybrids. So depending on the election result your "Stay The Course" may well be the original hybrid plan!
So Jerry, reading ur comments, its possible we may be in “violent” agreement. However, I don’t think the result of the next election changes much in the way things have been heading. Outside influences, as u point for example to European regs, continue to have greater influence for a global industry like the transportation sector. China looms very large in that equation. What the EPA has done recently is likely a blip for American OEMs to sell more trucks short term but that may be the extent of their influence.
