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^^^
Yep as far as the "World" believe we're saying something similar. Even in Canada, where they have lagged behind the lower CO2 emissions issue because their economy is heavily influenced by oil, natural gas and hydropower, the Prime Minister said he was going to support the agreement California reached last July with Ford/Toyota/BMW/VW for something close to the original 2012 plan! China and India (the largest users of coal for power (>65%) are both pushing for EV's, India for only EVs. GM has a big business in China and must go with what that country is pushing.
However I do think things will change drastically if the current administration does not win in November. Whoever else runs and if they win, has no choice as the "no fossil fuel" folks will, as a minimum insist on drastic changes like requiring high mpg cars and light trucks. Heck that was what the administration in 2012 agreed was "needed." That 2012 report also discussed, with limited details, the price of gas significantly increasing! Easy way to get more money in "government coffers" (to squander wherever) and push the no (reduced) fossil fuel agenda! Hmm, ~40 mpg Vettes and $10/gallon federal gas tax.
Quoting:"Chevrolet is reportedly working on a 1,000-horsepower Corvette variant, according to a General Motors document leaked to Hagerty. Informally known as the "Zora" allegedly rely on a gasoline-electric hybrid powertrain that pairs a twin-turbocharged 5.5-liter V-8 engine with one or more electric motors, the latter of which we expect will power the car's front wheels.
The pause in development will likely affect the timing of other Corvette models, too. This includes the Corvette ZR1, which the Zora allegedly cribs its 850-hp V-8 engine from. The same leaked document notes that a naturally aspirated 650-hp variant of the ZR1's twin-cam V-8 was due to in the track-oriented Corvette Z06 for the 2022 model year. Meanwhile, a 600-hp, gasoline-electric hybrid Corvette Grand Sport—that pairs the standard Stingray's 6.2-liter V-8 engine with one or more electric motors—was evidently set to enter the fray for the 2023 model year. We anticipate each Corvette model will now debut one or more model years later than originally planned."
SIDEBAR
My postulate that the hybrid is to achieve much higher mpg(as well as provide extra FWD power, is probably true as well! Have not heard an alternative of what GM would have done when introducing the C8 in 2019 when it may well have needed ~25 mpg and by 2025 ~40 mpg! Fact is, if the election on November 8, 2018 had gone the other way, that was the published mpg when the C8 was introduced that would have been required by law as defined in the 2012, 1174 page Government Report!It was ready to go in place and GM had to be ready with a viable product!
Ferrari won't say their hybrids are for significantly better mpg (or for European countries lower CO2/km) even though the CEO recently said they plan on 60% Hybrid sales in 2022. GM won't say the C8 hybrid is designed to get better gas mileage or the required software put in place until the high mpg is "dictated" by a "government!" They will both discuss the "performance benefits" until a government forces the issue. Why should they take the flake when most folks buying sports cars don't want to hear the higher mpg or lower CO2/km reason.
Understand some don't "want to believe," had the November 2016 Election gone the other way, soon after the C8 was planned to be released it would have required ~23 mpg and by 2025 ~40 mpg (as would all sports cars!) The law was scheduled to go into effect in 2017. It would have meant some hybrids early and by 2025 mostly hybrid C8s.
Just found this link to an article from the administration who was promoting this significant mpg increase and stated why. This is a link to that article from their archives: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...iency-standard
This is the Title: Obama Administration Finalizes Historic 54.5 MPG Fuel Efficiency Standards
This is what it said as to "Why" AND "How Great it Was," Quoting the Assistant EPA Director: “The fuel efficiency standards the administration finalized today are another example of how we protect the environment and strengthen the economy at the same time,” said EPA Administrator Lisa P. Jackson. “Innovation and economic growth are already reinvigorating the auto industry and the thousands of businesses that supply automakers as they create and produce the efficient vehicles of tomorrow. Clean, efficient vehicles are also cutting pollution and saving drivers money at the pump."
PS: The reason for the 54.5 mpg in the title is the 1174 page Government Report (pics from 2 tables below) that defined Sport Cars needing ~40 mpg also had small, low hp grocery getters, like the Toyota Corolla, getting ~60 mpg by 2025! Note, this was "NOT a gas guzzler" tax for owners! They were NOT going to allow "Rich Corvette, Ferrari etc owner's" not to participate in "Global Warming Reduction!" It was a prohibitive fine of the manufacturer by car and light truck Model not an average of all vehicles they build. Therefore Ferrari could not just buy Tesla and average their production to meet their goal for sports cars! Each model requirement is carefully defined by capacity, hp, footprint etc. GM could not just call a "Volt or Bolt a Corvette!" The Corvette Sports car "average" had to meet ~40 mpg. So a few, like the Zora, could get lower mpg and be averaged with the others produced. The 1174 page report is very analytical, defining ways it can be achieved, using then current Prius etc mpg, for example. It suggests, hybrids, EVs etc. That law was going into effect in 2017 had it not been put on hold with a stroke of a pen! It can go back January 2021 the same way!
THESE TABLES, UNDER THE "ADJUSTED MPG," SHOW REQUIREMENT IN 2025
Just responded to a post where it was said the 54.4 mpg requirement in that 2012 press release was referring to the manufacturers average! That is BS, they were not going to allow Ferrari to buy Tesla and solve their sports car mpg requirement. Chevy could also not just call Volts and Bolts Corvettes! The 1174 page document defines how each car and light truck model goals were set. Although I don't agree with the idea it's a well written report based on car/truck size, engine power etc.
So where the Corvette (and other high powered sports cars) required ~40 mpg in 2025, as did the Silverado, low power grocery getters could require ~60 mpg (see the Toyota Corolla in the above post table.) They was because they could achieve that average!
It is also NOT a gas guzzler tax paid by the purchaser! They we're going to let "rich folks" who could afford Corvettes not share in their lower CO2 emissions goal! It is a very prohibitive fine of the manufacturer. Better not to sell low mpg vehicles that did not meet the goal. Actually GM could do fine financially dropping the Corvette BUT not the 550,000 Silverado's they sell each year!
But got feedback from "forum experts" who said no way could that "small battery" achieve the ~40 mpg. Well just updated my PDF with info on the new Toyota RAV4 hybrid: http://netwelding.com/C8_FWD_Hybrid.pdf
It uses an even smaller 1.6 kWh battery compared to the 1.92 kWh in the leaked C8 hybrid! The info in the Motor Trend article a few weeks ago validated the first post in this Thread of it using a LT2 with ~100 hp hybrid FWD! It will be the C8 Grand Sport as I speculated in an early post on this Thread, November 2019.
The Toyota uses a 2.5 Liter L4 with electric motors powering front and rear wheels. Combined it has 302 hp and can achieve an avenge ~90 MPGe! It has a "battery only" range of 42 miles.
I have a 2017 Volt. I get a combined 85mpg. What u need to realize is how many trips u make that are easily handled on battery. The Vette may not use the same strategy as the Volt but, things have come a long way.
Last edited by Dominic Sorresso; Jun 2, 2020 at 09:21 PM.
But got feedback from "forum experts" who said no way could that "small battery" achieve the ~40 mpg. Well just updated my PDF with info on the new Toyota RAV4 hybrid: http://netwelding.com/C8_FWD_Hybrid.pdf
It uses an even smaller 1.6 kWh battery compared to the 1.92 kWh in the leaked C8 hybrid! The info in the Motor Trend article a few weeks ago validated the first post in this Thread of it using a LT2 with ~100 hp hybrid FWD! It will be the C8 Grand Sport as I speculated in an early post on this Thread, November 2019.
The Toyota uses a 2.5 Liter L4 with electric motors powering front and rear wheels. Combined it has 302 hp and can achieve an avenge ~90 MPGe! It has a "battery only" range of 42 miles.
the c8 does not need to meet that mileage standard. the GM fleet does.
^^^^ Read the 1174 page government report! I did. See pic of 2 tables below and look at the required mpg values! The Corvette family, i.e the average of all Corvettes (NOT Corvettes averaged to Volts and Bolts etc!) had a goal of 39.83 mpg! The Silverado 40.29 mpg. Those are EPA mileage test average for City/Highway. It's a very detailed analytical way this was determined. A lower hp, family grocery getter required more because it could be achieved. Note the Toyota Corolla required 60.8 mpg.
Nope, they were not going to allow Ferrari to buy Tesla and solve their Sports car mpg problem! The CEO of Ferrari recently said they plan on selling 60% hybrids in 2022. The Porsche folks say they are planning on 50% EV's buy 2025 (note the year it's not a coincidence.) Had the November 2016 election gone the other way that would have been law!
Nope they were not going to let "Rich Folks" who can but a Corvette (or Ferrari) NOT participate in the reduced CO2 goal! Are you kidding, just let all others make up for your selfish fossil fuel wasting cars! And it's NOT an owner gas guzzler tax! It's a prohibitive fine for the manufaturer. Nope can't just pay money ans get out of contributing to a reduction in global warming! The fine is big enough that GM might just as well NOT build Corvttes! Actually GM could exist financially without Corvettes BUT not without those 550,000 Silverrods they sell each year. If you like math read the government report it's available on the Net!
Get responses to my posts from folks who think the ~40 mpg requirement for the Corvette "Family" (Ferrari, Porsche etc sports cars) related to:
1) A gas guzzler tax the owner pays and they don't care.
2) Something related to the "average" for the manufacturer.
That is BS! It's NOT something the owner pays (and would be Law in 2017 IF the November 2016 election went the other way.) The administration was NOT going to let "rich folks" who can afford a Corvette (Ferrari etc) get away with putting CO2 in the atmosphere!!
It was not a manufacturers average of all vehicles produced mpg! Nope Ferrari could not buy Tesla and get around their issue!! And the cars/light trucks were carefully defined so GM could not just call a Volt and Bolt a Corvette!! And even though Porsche calls the Macan a "Porsche" it doesn't count as a "sports car" (nor would the VW equivalent made in the same plant count!)
May not like what was planned but these folks are not stupid- Zealots but NOT stupid. You can read the 1174 page government report as I did or look at this one composite page below. BUT the requirement is by Vehicle Family and the fine is so prohibitive for GM it would be better NOT TO SELL CORVETTES! They could do that and still exist BUT not the 550,000 Silverado's they sell each year! Perhaps this press release from the administration when the November 2016 election was being held will open some eyes! Could happen again depending on this November's Election! https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...iency-standard
This is the title of the Press release: "Obama Administration Finalizes Historic 54.5 MPG Fuel Efficiency Standards"
These are a few words: “Simply put, this groundbreaking program will result in vehicles that use less gas, travel farther, and provide more efficiency for consumers than ever before—all while protecting the air we breathe and giving automakers the regulatory certainty to build the cars of the future here in America,”
This PDF is my logical speculation with many references/examples of what GM had planned for the C8 to meet this LAW: C8 hybrids. Had the present administration not stopped it with the stroke of a pen in 2017 hybrids would be out with the C8 intro or a year or so after. It can come back the same way or worse! http://netwelding.com/C8_FWD_Hybrid.pdf
Most of these reports forget that last year GM announced they would no longer make/produce hybrid vehicles. They will make ICE vehicles or Electric Vehicles not a Hybrid. I suspect the C8 architecture can easily be modified so it is a 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive electric car. GM has made this statement many times since then and they have said the initial Electric Vehicles are going to be released as Cadillac's.
If there were plans and provisions in the car's architecture to make a hybrid version of the C8 they were trashed a year and a half ago. GM sees the Hybrid as a poor solution to the problem and going all electric as the proper solution. Given where things are in the GM management structure Mark Reuss may succeed Mary Barra when she retires in 2 years if she follows tradition and retires at age 60. He could then run the company for another 3 or 4 years until his retirement. No way do Hybrid design or development efforts exist during that time period.
That means the Corvette may quickly become the companies response to the Tesla Roadster.
^^^
Bill,
Well aware of GM’s latest goals of all EVs. But in 2013 when Tadge said they started the C8 design there was no EV Vette on the horizon. IMO and that leaked info said it was more than a plan. To meet the ~40 mpg that would have been Law starting in 2017 (had the 2016 November Election gone the other way) they would need it soon after the C8 was launched. In fact Ferrari obviously made a similar hybrid decision in ~2013 as their CEO recently said they plan on 60% hybrids in 2022. He also said they postponed an EV until after 2025 because of battery limitations. His words not mine! BTW, Europe has similar max allowed CO2 emission's, measured as CO2/km.
Yep, GM may have changed direction but no easy development effort to design the C9, EV Vette close to the C8 price point and a range many Corvette owner's require!
PS: Marry Barra's logic is OK for a low hp "Grocery Getter!" But for a high hp sports car, that some folks use for long trips and will only buy at a relatively low price, not an easy combo to achieve. IMO, as I state in the PDF, Porsche may get by with their planned 50% EV's in 2025 (there words not mine) to blend the MPGe with lower mpg cars. Many Porsche's are weekend cars and more than half of the "rich owner's" have other DD's and vehicles for long trips. High hp and reasonable range they will be expensive. Of interest to me, Ferrari owners probably have even more money and likely few are DD's but they chose hybrids as well.
We'll see what happens this November BUT if the present administration doesn't win, that ~40 mpg goal may get even higher. Heck they already mentioned person will be an "energy advisor" will probably implement the higher federal gas tax the 1174 page report mentions as a way to push out ICEs! Whatever happens, agree the C9 Corvette will be an EV! Glad I'm getting a C8!
Most of these reports forget that last year GM announced they would no longer make/produce hybrid vehicles. They will make ICE vehicles or Electric Vehicles not a Hybrid. I suspect the C8 architecture can easily be modified so it is a 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive electric car. GM has made this statement many times since then and they have said the initial Electric Vehicles are going to be released as Cadillac's.
If there were plans and provisions in the car's architecture to make a hybrid version of the C8 they were trashed a year and a half ago. GM sees the Hybrid as a poor solution to the problem and going all electric as the proper solution. Given where things are in the GM management structure Mark Reuss may succeed Mary Barra when she retires in 2 years if she follows tradition and retires at age 60. He could then run the company for another 3 or 4 years until his retirement. No way do Hybrid design or development efforts exist during that time period.
That means the Corvette may quickly become the companies response to the Tesla Roadster.
Bill
A traditional gas/electric hybrid vs. adding electric front wheel drive to a sports car are two very different things IMO.
^^^
Yep the FWD hybrid power in the leaked report that started this Thread in November 2019 was only ~114 hp. That was reinforced by a recent GM leak report in Motor Trend of the C8 Grand Sport Hybrid which showed similar LT2 ICE and 100 hp hybrid power. Although it would be a help in improving 0 to 60 times and accelerating out of a turn when driving aggressively IMO it's primarily for getting improved mpg in normal cruising When Required by Law. (That software would only be discussed and implemented when higher mpg is required by Law. Few sports cars buyers what to hear about their ICE starting when the car reaches 30 to 40 mph on battery power.)
Pic From the Article that Started this Thread. I Added the Power Specs from the Text.
Thanks so much for all of this great information! This is a terrific thread. At the risk of getting tossed from this forum, I am a closet tree hugger, and am very interested in fuel economy. That was what clinched my purchase of a C6 manual. I have some interest in the upcoming RAV4 PHEV with its 302HP, but it is no sports car. I had interest in a Tesla Model Y Perf (easily beats my C6 0-60) or Model S (crushes my C6), but I am afraid of range anxiety, and they still just look like an upscale SUV and sedan, respectively. Based on this thread, I am inclined to hold out for a couple of years and get a C8 Eray, which is (or was) planned for release following the Z06. Based on this thread, it sounds to me like the electric motor and ancillary electric equipment might not add much more of a weight penalty than the convertible top. If I can get the long range and high speed power of ICE; a bump in torque from the electric motor; the traction of AWD, the looks, speed, and handling of the C8; and the ability to get mpg better than my C6, I will have everything I want in a car as long as it doesn't cost me both arms and a brace of legs. The devil is in the details, but there is no way that GM would have that thing run on a small electric motor only, from 0-30. GM will figure that out. They will find a way to maximize the mpg (or at least the EPA rated mpg) whilst keeping the lightning greased when you mash the pedal.
^^^ Yep as I state in the PDF (page 11) I'm all for doing the best we can to get more that ~15% of the energy in gasoline to propel the car! I feel similar to Andy Cowell, managing director of Mercedes High Performance Powertrains it’s better to improve the ICE efficiency, best as possible. He expressed his frustration that F1 that has doubled their mpg with hybrid and what is called MGU-H (Motor Generator Unit, Heat) that they are eliminating in 2022. For cost but the other foolish reason sound!
He said HGU-H provided 60% of the electric energy used to power their Mercedes F1 cars and contributed 5% of the current engine's thermal efficiency. He said replacing it will involve burning some fuel through the exhaust, which doesn't feel the most honorable thing to do as an engineer. As an engineer, I feel the same!
You might wait for the C8 Grand Sport that will have ~100 extra electric hp FWD in addition to the LS2 ~500 hp. Until the "Government" dictates significantly improved mpg is required it will be used for better acceleration particularly coming out of a turn. Even if the required mpg gets to the planned for 2017 ~40 mpg that will be with the EPA mpg City and Highway test. When driving aggressively, at large throttle openings. BOTH the ICE 500 and FWD ~100 hp can be used together. On average it's a small percentage of the "average Corvette usage" so it's not in the EPA required tests.
The prognosticators seem to conflict on the Eray and the GS. Hagerty said that the GS will have the electric hybrid, and does not mention the Eray in its most recent speculation. https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/g...ur-horsepower/
GM Authority said that the Eray will have the electric/hybrid configuration https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chev...orvette-e-ray/
while the GS will not. https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/04...nts-exclusive/
and https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chev...the%20Stingray
If your speculation about efficiency standards is even halfway accurate, I would think that GM would want to add the electric motor to the GS, in which case, yes that would seem like the right car for me. If President Trump loses in November, as seems likely at this point, then I would think that there would be even more pressure to drop the electric/hybrid into the GS. Time will tell what GM brings out. I really like the idea of the better handling GS, but I also really like the hybrid AWD format. Having both in the GS would be the best of both worlds, and I'd be willing to open the wallet for that one. If I had to choose between a FWD GS sans hybrid, and the AWD Eray sans wide body, that would be a tough call. I'd probably pick the one that they released first! It looks like the variants will get pushed off for at least a year beyond the original schedule, so I've got plenty of time to fret about it. Thanks again.
^^^
If the current administration loses in November you can be sure AOC, the announced "energy advisor," will support California who will instantly push for the Agreement they had with Ford/Toyota/BMW/VW in July 2019, which was close to the ~40 mpg, pushed out a year or two. Since the State of Washington, Oregon and several others use the CA law GM can't afford to build Corvettes for the "other states." That will mean, IMO the C8 is short lived and we'll see a full EV Corvette! GM is putting a lot of money in "new battery" technology. Frankly because of their sales in China, they have no choice! Think the World of fun cars will be over, after all they are just for transportation!
Glad I'll have a C8 and can drive my ProStreet 502 cid BB equipped '34 Ford that gets 10 mpg! I can afford the extra $10/gallon Federal Gas Tax that will be imposed to drive out ICEs! That was alluded to in the 1174 page Government Report that was put on hold when the new administration took over January 2017! Yep just like Europe, have to pay for all those social programs like free college. Works until like Maggie Thatcher said, "You Run Out Of Other People's Money!"
OMG, I missed that (AOC as energy advisor) in the news. I like to avoid politics in these posts, but I will say that if she becomes the energy czar, I am afraid that I'll be taxed if I break wind whilst riding my bicycle. If Biden wins and appoints her, then it may behoove me to place an order for whatever C8 I can get at that time, and drive that thing to my grave. As others have told me, change is good, even if it sux.
$10 gas tax? Good luck with that. Where I live, it is mostly the poorest folks who drive the oldest gas guzzlers. Unless they figure out a way to track your income or wealth at the gas pump and charge you accordingly, that kind of regressive tax is potentially political suicide.
Great .pdf on the hybrid. Thanks for sharing.
502 cid!!! Killer street rod. With the roar that thing must make, you'll scare the children when you drive it down the street.
Read the 1174 page government report! I did. See pic of 2 tables below and look at the required mpg values! The Corvette family, i.e the average of all Corvettes (NOT Corvettes averaged to Volts and Bolts etc!) had a goal of 39.83 mpg! The Silverado 40.29 mpg. Those are EPA mileage test average for City/Highway. It's a very detailed analytical way this was determined. A lower hp, family grocery getter required more because it could be achieved. Note the Toyota Corolla required 60.8 mpg.
Yep as I state in the PDF (page 11) I'm all for doing the best we can to get more that ~15% of the energy in gasoline to propel the car! I feel similar to Andy Cowell, managing director of Mercedes High Performance Powertrains it’s better to improve the ICE efficiency, best as possible. He expressed his frustration that F1 that has doubled their mpg with hybrid and what is called MGU-H (Motor Generator Unit, Heat) that they are eliminating in 2022. For cost but the other foolish reason sound!