Originally Posted by Egoncool

For those saying he doesn’t come off the throttle prior to dropping the tire, you should watch the video more closely. Marko is a very good driver. The mistake he made was trying to eek out an extra tenth or two by briefly unwinding the wheel because he didn’t think the car was giving him full power. This caused him to push wide. He realized he was pushing and he definitely does feather the throttle, and in fact the car upshifts. He almost made it, and the reason he doesn’t is because the FIS curbing suddenly stops and becomes narrower. He was probably right on the edge, and had some tire overhanging, but when the curbing suddenly got narrower he abruptly went off, and the tire went flat. At that point there was no saving it. If he had realized he was going to off, it would of been better to drive straight off, because there is plenty of runoff there, but it’s easy to say that after the fact, and he was very close to making it. I don’t fault him for this, it’s a judgement call and I respect his judgment. We all decide how much risk to take in this pursuit. I also think his line was a bit wide, but there are many lines through hog pen. You don’t have to closely apex it, and you can be wot prior to the throttle.
I also just want to comment on the PTM modes. I personally drive my C8 in sport 1 (sport) on the track. I don’t find it intrusive at all, in contrast to dry, which is very intrusive. Even in sport you can lose the back if you’re too aggressive with the throttle coming out of a turn. In modes higher than sport 1 or sport you lose the esc or yaw control, but still retain some traction control. Some of the fastest drivers I know drive in sport. One did a 1.56 at VIR in a stock C7 Z06. In speaking to these drivers, they say the difference between sport and race or race2 in terms of lap times is very small, and you are giving up a safety cushion, although I wonder if any car intervention can save you from a snap oversteer as occurred here. The other issue with all the modes, is that they do nothing to prevent you from pushing wide, as happened here. Again, we all do what works for us and our personal driving styles and risk tolerance and there is no right or wrong.

Originally Posted by PRE-Z06

my question is did it cause the running wide as that’s what it appears based on the video and the person analyzing it. Things don’t always work out the way we intend I realize, but I personally want to be the one driving the car as otherwise I don’t see the point unless maybe you have the engineer working with you and going over data.

Originally Posted by Mitchell_B

I can accept making a personal error in judgement, but I do not want a black box looking over my shoulder telling the car to do something different than what I am asking the car to do. In cases other than say ABS activation, this can be very dangerous as you lose the ability to be able to predict what the car will do when you are at the limit. Driving a car that displays unpredictability leads to zero driver confidence.

Originally Posted by PRE-Z06

my question is did it cause the running wide as that’s what it appears based on the video and the person analyzing it..

Originally Posted by RedLS6

IMO the PTM didn't cause the running wide. The problem began much earlier, between 17 and 17a - about 6 seconds into the video.

Originally Posted by dohabandit

Looks like a series of driver errors to me, not the fault of PTM. He was really pushing that Z06 hard, I think he just wanted that last apex at full throttle too soon to setup for that straight away to achieve max speed there.
He could say PTM was messing with him and made him lose focus there, but I think the bigger issue was he was laser focused on coming out of that apex at max throttle no matter what chasing that lower lap time.

Originally Posted by RedLS6

IMO the PTM didn't cause the running wide. The problem began much earlier, between 17 and 17a - about 6 seconds into the video.

Originally Posted by PRE-Z06

My understanding based on what was said is he unwound the wheel because PTM pulled power and he was trying to carry as much speed down the front straight so he had the pedal to the floor, had power not been pulled it’s plausible he wouldn’t have unwound the wheel and not run wide as he barely went off track cutting the tire. I only throw this out there as many talk about how PTM saves them .

Originally Posted by Mitchell_B

PTM, traction control and ESC give you false feedback as to what your car can do and how it behaves at the limits. I want the limits clearly defined and the rest is, well, driver skill.

Originally Posted by Ksteckba

Couldn’t agree more.

Additionally, I agree people driving fast cars much faster than their skill level should allow is dangerous, and is only facilitated because the laws of physics weren’t allowed to teach them freely.

People talk about ESC as a safety net, but what is safer, an elite driver with ESC/TC off who never spins or a 2sec slower driver who always runs with ESC/TC on? I believe it is generally the slower driver in most instances.

Originally Posted by RedLS6

Carrying speed down the front straight involves setting up properly for the apex at 17a. This setup involves getting the car slightly pre-rotated before 17a, so that you can exit 17a with a good pre-rotation angle at apex, which means less required rotation after the 17a apex and more available throttle earlier, for front straight speed. Opening the wheel meant that the opportunity for a good amount of pre-rotation was lost but speed was maintained, but this meant extra rotation was then needed (at full throttle) post-apex near that outer curbing where all hope was lost. It's a tricky corner to recover from.

Had PTM not activated, the traction loss may have initiated even earlier, but PTM is a double-edged sword; you can either use it to help drive a car out of a corner, or you can try to drive without ever using it and when it does engage, learn why and adapt your driving so that it doesn't engage again. The driver's application of throttle in both cases, is very different, although lap times may be close. PTM is a good safety tool when learning a new car or building speed, but my goal is always to drive the learning curve towards having it engage 0% of the time.

Originally Posted by bhvrdr

I prefer to set z mode because you have individual control of steering, brakes, suspension (kind of), transmission.

You can set your preferred PTM mode in your z mode and then the mode selector becomes a PTM mode selector. Extremely convenient.

As for PTM mode I'd pick which one meets your preference. No one can tell you what PTM mode is right for you.

On a new to me wet track if I had slicks on the car I'd 100 percent use a different one than on a dry track that I consider my local backyard track.

Often My personal preference is PTM Sport on street tires as I'm not doing time attacks and competing. I'm just having fun trying to set personal best times. It's weekend warrior mode to me lol.

Race 1 on r comps would make sense for someone who knows the track and is comfortable with it.

You know what Race 2 is and you know if you want to use it. If you are confident with the car and that track and have already been setting records at it and want to experience zero intervention it's there.


DISCLAIMER ON ALL PTM MODES EXCEPT WET: be warned that literally all ptm modes except wet mode will force the suspension into track mode. Wet mode puts the suspension in sport mode (mid setting). This is great for most tracks but tracks like Sebring that are incredibly bumpy.... incredibly....you may find there to be nowhere near the suspension modulation you need. This literally forces you to not be able to use PTM at Sebring. You can choose competitive drive mode though if you want some level of ESC/TC and soft suspension.

Originally Posted by Chapdog

I don’t mean to hijack the conversation but curious what you do re suspension settings at Sebring. I’ve driven Sebring about 20 times but no other track. (Also wrecked my C7 in turn 13 in track mode on cup 2’s so I’ll keep some Nannie’s thank you!)

Originally Posted by Ksteckba

As you said they use TC. TC does not teach them how to drive the car. Additionally TC only is much different than using ESC and TC, for discussion purposes. TC is only limiting wheel spin on exit.

But, pro drivers use the TC for the advantage not learning. Driver aids aren’t teaching someone how to drive a car optimally.

I will agree that they can help someone learn with a safety net, for those that need it though, don’t get me wrong. It is just wrong to say that the aids are directly teaching the person to drive the car, as was suggested above. ( @AHP I think you may have minced my words above).

Here is a good video where the driver is “learning” from the driver aids. In this case, the driver learned how to press the accelerator to the floor when there is no chance for WOT. Then, when the algorithm wouldn’t give them throttle, they opened the steering a bit until it did give them throttle, and then turned again.

https://youtu.be/XlwficODXo0?si=6sGUK36gtt381M5_

Originally Posted by unframed

Damn, that registered 8.6 G's at impact. Ouch. But there are no driver aids in PTM Race 2.