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Who writes the specification? For a while I just thought it was part of a name like Pentosin FFL-4 or FFL-3, or Castrol GTX, Mobil 1 ESP x3 or Mobil 1 ESP x4.
Thanks! I participated in the thread. But, I'm looking for the so called FFL-4 spec? Who writes it? Like with gm dexos, we know that is a motor oil specification and who writes it. And with the MB specs, VW specs, and SAE specs, etc, most specs are attributed to either a well recognized standards organization or to a manufacturer. But where does FFL or FFL-1,2,3,4 come from? On the Valvoline bottle is stands alone as simply FFL-4. And it says its recommended for it. The Delco brand, called AC Delco Automatic Transmission Fluid DCTF FFL-4 is described: "This synthetic blend has been rigorously tested against an extended version of the ATSM 130 copper corrosion test. It's designed to meet GM performance specs for friction reduction, temperature control stability, and high cleanliness levels." Its hard to find something that says "meets or exceeds the FFL-4 requirements". I'm wondering if it is a specification against which products are tested. I'm not saying it is or isn't, but I dont see that term FFL-4 used in the same context as other lubricant specification.
That other thread established that Fuchs, who we think makes the Delco product, would not confirm that its is the same as as the original Fuchs Titan product - something about not revealing a clients proprietary formulatiion. Post 25 includes the communication from Fuchs that says that.
I'm going to put this out there, and catch hell for it maybe, but I can't find any evidence that FFL-4 is a "specification". It was the name of a product Pentosin FFL-4, which has now become Fuchs Titan FFL-4. But I'm trying to find something that says "meets or exceed the requirement of FFL-4" I cannot. Attached is the Pentosin FFL-4 product data sheet. It show a single "approval" and also has a list of recommended applications. It never lists FFL-4 as an approval or a recommendation. Similarly, attaches is a flyer provided by Fuchs Titan that lists the approvals and recommendations for Fuchs Titan FFL-4 - it does not list FFL-4 as spec that it meets. And the Delco bottle never says that either. I'm going to suggest the possibility that FFL-4 is just a name for a Pentosin product, which became a Fuchs product. And those are the specific fill recommended for C8 in much of the GM documentation (that part is factual). When other manufacturers indicate "recommended for FFL-4", it really just means (I am suggesting) they are recommending if for use where the specific Pentosin or Fuchs product is recommended. I cannot find evidence that is an actual specification. The point of all this, if it is correct, is that one cannot say that "any product that says FFL-4" will be correct for the C8 DCT. It might be. Perhaps it is a spec - but I cannot find it.
Add: Since the subject in the OP was Valvoline, I want to also acknowledge that if you go on the Valvoline web site and use the product finder, it will recommend the Valvoline DCT fluid for the C8. In its approvals and specs, it does not list C8 specifically, but as already noted, it does say "recommended for FFL-4". I have also pointed out that Amsoil also recommends a DCT fluid - in their list of recommended applications, it says "Pentosin FFL-2, FFL-3, FFL-4". In other words its using it as a specific product. I'm not saying either of these will or wont be fine in the C8, I'm just questioning whether FFL-4 is published specification that manufacturers can use to evaluate their product and/or have it approved.
Last edited by Andybump; Jun 12, 2024 at 07:28 PM.
Reason: adknowledge Valvoline recommendation
ACDelco DTC Fluid is advertised as a synthetic blend, Valvoline DCT as a full synthetic. Delco hires someone to make it for them, Valvoline makes it themself. Delco is $21 to $32 per bottle, Valvoline $7.50 to $9.50. Both have FFL-4 on the bottle.
I maybe a fool taking a real chance but I have never been let down by a Valvoline product in 50 years of wrenching so unless there is proof it's damaging something for my $ I'm using it.
I can change it twice more for the same cost and I'm personally confident it will not grenade anything. If the shifting quality is that bad I'll drain it and put Delco in.
I'll be doing the first engine oil change and DCT canister filter soon at 1500 miles. I'll be sending the oil to Blackstone for a baseline and I'm tempted to send the fluid too.
Yeah, I like to live dangerously
ACDelco DTC Fluid is advertised as a synthetic blend, Valvoline DCT as a full synthetic. Delco hires someone to make it for them, Valvoline makes it themself. Delco is $21 to $32 per bottle, Valvoline $7.50 to $9.50. Both have FFL-4 on the bottle.
I maybe a fool taking a real chance but I have never been let down by a Valvoline product in 50 years of wrenching so unless there is proof it's damaging something for my $ I'm using it.
I can change it twice more for the same cost and I'm personally confident it will not grenade anything. If the shifting quality is that bad I'll drain it and put Delco in.
I'll be doing the first engine oil change and DCT canister filter soon at 1500 miles. I'll be sending the oil to Blackstone for a baseline and I'm tempted to send the fluid too.
Yeah, I like to live dangerously
ACDelco DTC Fluid is advertised as a synthetic blend, Valvoline DCT as a full synthetic. Delco hires someone to make it for them, Valvoline makes it themself. Delco is $21 to $32 per bottle, Valvoline $7.50 to $9.50. Both have FFL-4 on the bottle.
I maybe a fool taking a real chance but I have never been let down by a Valvoline product in 50 years of wrenching so unless there is proof it's damaging something for my $ I'm using it.
I can change it twice more for the same cost and I'm personally confident it will not grenade anything. If the shifting quality is that bad I'll drain it and put Delco in.
I'll be doing the first engine oil change and DCT canister filter soon at 1500 miles. I'll be sending the oil to Blackstone for a baseline and I'm tempted to send the fluid too.
Yeah, I like to live dangerously
I think we are pretty sure that Fuchs makes the Declo DCT FFL-4 fluid. A poster asked them to confirm it is the same as the Fuch Titan FFL-4, which was formerly Pentosisn FFL-4, both of which appear in versions of the C8 service manual. They would not confirm it. Here is the response.
I'd have no problem using a comparable Valvoline product over Mobil 1. Valvoline products are good stuff, and have been for years. Remember, it took GM and Mobil 1 three tries to finally get the ATF right on the C7 eight speed autos. More and more I see Mobil 1 trying to skate by with little to no discernable specs on their products. I like to compare specs but I'd much rather use a full synthetic over a blend. Pentosin, Amsoil, Redline, all good stuff. If it is FFL-4 it should be good to run. Tremec actually says they prefer FUCHS Titan EG FFL-4 DCTF.
Last edited by BigVette427; Jun 26, 2024 at 10:06 AM.
FFL-4 is a name, not a specification. Look for any document that describes a specification, and look for the approving authority for such a spec. I do not believe you will find one. Other specifications such MB specs. or Vw specs, or GM dexos specs, or SAE specs - you can find the approving authority (MB, VW, GM, SAE and so on). I have not found the same thing for FFL-4. It was as far as I can tell the name of a series of Pentosin Products - FFL-1, 2, 3, 4. Much like there is Mobil 1 ESP x3 and ESP x4. Neither are specs - they are names Mobil gave the oil. But each will list an extensive list of specs that they do meet. Anyway Pentosin was replaced by Fuchs Titan FFL-4 and they will tell you it was formerly Pentosin. The Delco product is called Delco DCTF FFL-4, but you will not find anywhere on the bottle a statement that it "meets or exceeds FFL-4 requirements" We think that the Delco product is actually made by Fuchs, but Fuchs has been asked and responded that they will not confirm it is the same because they do not reveal the proprietary formula for clients. Valvoline says their product is recommended for FFL-4 - it does not say it meets or exceeds FFL-4 requirements. Amsoil offers a product for use where Pentosiin FFL-2,3,4 are called for. And so on. Not at all saying the the Valvoline product is not good, or satisfactory for the C8. Only that FFL-4 does not appear to be a specification.
In some versions of the GM Service Manauls for the C8, you will find it recommends the Fuch product and also the Pentosin product.
Refer to post 23 where I put more supporting information.
Tremec lists the Fuchs Titan FFL-4 product in their literature.
The tech-link article in dated March 31,2020, entitled 2020 Corvette Stingray Powertrain, was intended to introduce the then-new model to technicians. This article says " The DCT requires a special transmission fluid to maintain performance and durability standards. ACDelco DCT FFL-4 automatic transmission fluid is recommended. Do not use any other type of fluid. Total capacity is 11.62 quarts." https://gm-techlink.com/?p=12881
The Maseratti MC-20 manual recommends the Fuch product. Fuchs Titan FFL-4. It uses the same Tremec transmission.
The version of the 2020 C8 Service Manual recommends, in several places, the Fuch Titan FFL-4 ("Use Fuchs TITAN EG FFL-4 TREMEC transmission fluid only. Failure to use the proper fluid may result in transmission internal damage.") In another it recommends Pentosin FFL-4 and gives part number 19418016.
And, guess what - that is the same part number as the Delco DCTF FFL-4.
Unlike what we see for motor oil, the referenced material is specifying a specific product - none of them say anything about using a DCT trasnmission fluid that "meets or exceed FFL-4 requirements or equivalent".
The point is the basis for choosing a transmission fluid other than the Delco, Pentosin, or Fuch product is solely the recommendation of the maker of the product.
2020 TECH-LINK ARTICLE 2020 SERVICE MANUAL RECOMMENDS FUCH TITAN FFL-4 SAME 2020 SERVICE MANUAL RECOMMENDS PENTOSIN FFL-4 AND GIVES A PART NUMBER THE SAME PART NUMBER FROM THE SERVICE MANUAL IS THE DELCO DCTF FFL-4
I serviced my DCT fluid and filter 10 days ago @ 2500 miles.....refilled with Valvoline Synthetic DCT fluid. $7/qt from Rock Auto and works great. Shifts are crisp and smooth and the occasional slight judder when coming to a stop has not happened in the 12-days since the change. I also had a slight differential whine common on C8's that I can no longer hear.
All the C8 track guys around here run the combo of Valvoline DCT fluid + Quaker State 5W-40 SP Euro Synthetic oil....changing the DCT fluid/filter twice a year. These guys drive their C8's like they are stolen, and none have had DCT problems. They said the Valvoline fluid is a no-brainer vs the $30-40/qt semi-synthetic Delco FFL-4 fluid, and the QS Euro oil is an excellent compromise and holds up well compared to the thick M1 15W-50 recommended by GM for track use.
Shell owns Penzoil/Quaker State, and the same 5W-40 GTL formulation is used for Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40, Penzoil UP 5W-40, and Quaker State Euro 5W-40. This is the only oil factory approved by Ferrari, has all the tough certs, and I've run it for years in my 512TR @ $15/qt. $4.50/qt for the Quaker State = I've already stockpiled a bunch.
This lubricant combo has noticeably quieted the DCT and LT2 in my car beyond placebo. With the targa off, my GF immediately noticed the previous tapping running M1-0W40 is gone (cam phaser?)
As I've said in previous threads, lubricant use cases are mostly marketing once the testing standards have been met. Valvoline Synthetic DCT fluid also meets M2C-936A specs and is listed as having "enhanced anti-judder protection". The prices charged by Chevy dealers for the Delco fluid are insane.
My 3LT-Z51 is my keeper C8 Gen Corvette, so I laid in a supply of Valvoline DCT fluid.
As I've said in previous threads, lubricant use cases are mostly marketing once the testing standards have been met. Valvoline Synthetic DCT fluid also meets M2C-936A specs and is listed as having "enhanced anti-judder protection". The prices charged by Chevy dealers for the Delco fluid are insane.
My 3LT-Z51 is my keeper C8 Gen Corvette, so I laid in a supply of Valvoline DCT fluid.
I'm sure the Valvoline product is fine, and I never said otherwise.
But the Ford and Getrag specs are great examples.. The Fuchs Titan FFL-4 website lists "approvals" and it lists "recommendations". It lists only one approval and that is GETRAG (PWA05043). The others, including the Ford spec, are recommendations. It does not list FFL-4 because that is not even a specification. The product data sheet for Valvoline DCT has a long list of recommended uses that include FFL-4, but lists no approvals and no licenses. And, it doesn't even include the GETRAG spec in its list of recommendations. I'm sure if they had approvals or licenses for a specification, it would be listed as such, as it is for other Valvoline automatic transmission fluid products. For example, Valvoline has this to say about their Dexron VI/Mercon LV product.
"Valvoline Dexron VI/Mercon LV ATF is the full-synthetic automatic transmission fluid that has been uniquely engineered to meet and exceed the requirements of the General Motors Dexron VI specification and is officially licensed and approved by GM. And in the product data sheet, we find “It is officially licensed and General Motors approved for the GM DEXRON-VI specification and recommended for use in Ford Mercon LV applications.” Note they are careful to distinguish the GM approval from the other recommended application. There are no other licenses or approvals listed – just recommendations.
My points were really just 1) TREMEC and GM recommend specific products (Pentosin FFL-4, Fuchs Titan FFL-4, and Delco DCTF FFL-4 depending on where you look) but do not references a "specification". 2) FFL-4 is not a specifcation - there is no approving or licensing authority - unlike API, or dexos, or GETRAG etc., 3) the Valvoline Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid lists recommended uses, but list no specification approvals or licenses.
Valvoline is a great product with a great reputation. I'm not saying otherwise. My concern is statement such as "any FFL-4 transmission fluid will do".
The Valvoline website finder tool recommends its Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid for the C8. If one chooses to use the Valvoline product, the choice is based on the Valvoline recommendation and trust in the reputation of the manufacturer, and not a specification. Valvoline very likely analyzed the Fuchs formulation and developed a comparable product that meets or maybe even exceeds the performance of the fluids that GM has recommended for the C8.
By the way, if we need more proof that Delco DCTF FFL-4 is made by Fuchs, take a look at the safety data sheet, attached. As I noted in post 29 though, someone contacted Fuchs and ask if the formulation is the same as the Fuchs Titan FFL-4, and they indicated that they do not reveal proprietary formulations info. So we can only guess if is the same.
I will point out something very curious though. The issue date of the SDS for the Delco DCTF FFL-4 is 04-26-2016. Hmm. Wanna guess what the issue data is for the Fuchs Titan FFL-4? Yup. Its 04-26-2016. But there are different revision dates and slight differences in the data.
The key aspect of any fluid discussion related to Corvette's is that there's nothing special about any mechanical aspect or fluid requirement of any mechanical component that has ever been specified by GM for use in any Corvette.....ever. It really is that simple.
I don't recall a single GM vehicle sold that introduced a novel mechanical design requiring cutting edge fluids. Pushrod engines? - used since the dawn of IC engines. DOHC engines? - Used in cars since Aston Martin and Jag in the 1950's. VVT? Developed and used by European oem's since the 1970's, Japanese oem's in the 1980's, and finally GM around 2003. GDI? Used by Japanese oem's since the mid 90's and introduced to Corvette's in 2014. DCT's? Used in dozens of cars for the past 20 years. Wet clutch? Used in motorcycles since the 1960's. Fluids required for any of these designs were released LONG before GM used them in a vehicle.
As with any other vehicle oem, GM engineers look up available fluid specs, select some that meet their requirements, test to verify functioning, and move on to the next design issue. FFL-4 DCT oil is no different. Oil companies blend lubricants to meet and exceed multiple specifications....period. Any claims or mention of "custom engineered" or "special" fluids by any vehicle oem is advertising and marketing at best, BS and snake oil at worst.
I like Corvette's....a lot.....I own several + a multitude of other vehicles. If I listened to every specious claim by a car company regarding their "special" fluids, my shelves would be filled to capacity. The McLaren "McMedic" tech that came to my garage a couple weeks ago to update the software on my 650S is who recommended Valvoline Synthetic DCT fluid for the 7-speed Graziano DCT vs the "expensive" McLaren brand fluid. It is well past idiotic that the typical Chevrolet dealer is charging more for DCT fluid and service than McLaren of Beverly Hills does on a $400K car.
I also spoke with Valvoline product support this morning. They sent me the updated Valvoline DCT spec sheet and said that Valvoline lab's have extensively tested their DCT fluid to be compatible with all models of C8 Corvette's + the other listed applications. They said their race development program has worked with several teams that compete with C8 Corvettes and the Tremec DCT transmission......and also Porsche, Ferrari, and Audi.
This lines up with what all the C8 track guys around here say....that Valvoline DCT fluid is among the best specified for this use case, and being cost effective and easily obtainable means changing it yearly (or more often based on number of track hours) is sensible.
Anyone still using Valvoline DCT fluid in 2025? Would love to hear what you have to say. Also, what color is the Valvoline DCT fluid vs the ACDelco/Fuchs fluid?
