Maybe you missed the FFL-4 on the front label of the Valvoline DCT bottle. Not real hard to miss.

 

On the front of the bottle, in the fine (er) print, it lists some recommended uses. It is "recommended for....FFL-4" by Valvoline. On the back of the bottle it says "Manufactured by Valvoline Global Operations 100 Valvoline Way, Lexington Kentucky 40509", and "Made in U.S.A. of foreign and domestic materials, (C) Valvoline Global Operations. Nothing about "Fuchs". The Valvoline Product Data Sheet does not say its made by Fuchs. The Valvoline Safety Data Sheet does not say its made by Fuchs.

For comparison, the Safety Data Sheet(s) for ACDelco DCTF FFL-4 do indicate that the manufacturer is Fuchs.

I'm not saying it can't be used either.

 

Thanks Andy. As you may suspect my point is that people post wrong information. What's worse is when they are called out they argue, "move the goal post", disappear or say they "misspoke". If I'm wrong I just say I was wrong.

 

My McLaren buddy just sent me this. Apparently Emelia found the OEM Delco DCT fluid lacking. "......as well as whether Chevrolet took any of that same knowledge into consideration during R&D for the forthcoming Z06 and electrified Corvette trims". I can almost guarantee GM did not. In terms of companies I've dealt with in my career, GM is among the most myopic and afflicted with NIH syndrome. Not Invented Here Syndrome

https://www.hotcars.com/emelia-hartf...tul-dct-fluid/

 

I'm with you and agree with what you are saying. Have learned a wealth of information from the group discussion and the required C8 AC Delco DCT fluid. Especially how it matches up against others who go with the FFL-4 label and also from trackers who have tried and tested on their own better Tremec products that can be used more effectively that what is required from GM. On the production of Valvoline being made by Fuch's my statement was incorrect, it is a manufactured in the USA as the bottle states, plain and simple. It also clarifies that other products are sourced globally.

Interesting to note regarding Saudi Aramco acquired Valvoline Global Operations for $2.65 billion in cash on March 1, 2023. This acquisition was part of Valvoline Inc.'s larger strategy to focus on its automotive services business, while Aramco sought to expand its global lubricants presence. Hopefully this will not effect the Valvoline DCT Fluid that works so well in the TR-9080.

 

Just throw a lil' MotorKote protectant in that badboy, she'll hold...

 

I agree I am with you on this. That means I have 1,k more to put in parts on her.

 

GM did not invent the Fuchs Titan FFL-4 fluid that Tremec recommends for the C8 transmission.

The Motul Product Finder recommends "HIGH-TORQUE DCTF Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) fluid High Performance Wet DCT" for the C8. The Product Data Sheet for that recommended product mentions a lot of car makers and transmission suppliers (including TREMEC) but does not mention GM or Chevrolet. It recommends it for OEM McClarin, Pentosin FFL-4, and says it can be mixed with Pentosin FFL-4. Not saying there is any issue with it - its yet another option. Although the discussion seems to evolved from "all DCT FFL-4 fluids are equal" to "some DCT fluids are more equal than others". I'm not disagreeing.

The referenced article is dated August 2022, before the Z06 was completed and released. And the question about "whether Chevrolet took any of that same knowledge into consideration" was not about the transmission fluid, it was about internal design features necessary to handle increased torque. When asked whether any of Phoenix's data helped Chevrolet's own engineers prepare the stock transaxle to handle so much more power from the factory, "Hartford needed to choose her words carefully to avoid revealing any of Chevy's top secrets too soon", but answered."..........I can confirm that the transmission design of the Z06 is a little bit different...........The clutches were, in their words, welded a little bit different because obviously, you have to rev higher. And they extended the sump a little bit on the new Z06 transmission so that you no longer need to add the additional two quarts........That's the whole thing on the Stingray..........f you're gonna go track it, add additional two quarts. With the new Z06, they've extended the sump so you no longer need to do that."

The statement about "extending the sump" is a bit ambiguous because it makes it (in my opinon) sound like they increased the capacity of the sump to hold the additional 2 quarts. That is not what happened. Rather, there were case and pan changes that hold the fluid at the intake better during high g maneuvers. Here is Josh Holder's explanation of the Z06 and Stingray case changes:

"Conti: Are the two additional quarts (sic) already there?

Josh Holder: It’s not really the case (meaning no). The case is, literally, changed for ’24. We did it because the Z06 necessitated a change in the lube system. Where we keep all the critical oil in a car on a Z06 that has so much lateral capability, was super important. So knowing that we needed to change the case and update the lub system for the Z06, in 24 model year, actually very late in 23 as it turns out, we moved all Corvettes to the same differential, err, the same transmission housing that the Z06 has. And when we did that you no longer need to add the additional 2 liters of oil. That really was a way to keep (the) lubs system healthy, lubrication where it needed to be, but it was overkill, it wasn’t kind of the way we would have done it starting over.

Conti: Is the pick up point different – is that what it is?

Josh Holder: The pick up point is not really different. What is different besides the the size and shape of the case itself, which can hold more oil near the pick up point. But there’s baffles inside the transmission that under high G loading keep the oil near the pick up point, which is the whole goal of (the) lube system. So that’s the benefit that all Corvette receive in 2024 models.

Conti: what if a guy (sic) did put the two additional quarts (sic) in there?

Josh Holder: In the 2024 transmission? Conti: yes. Josh: I…You could do it, actually you might risk some expulsion through the vent tube. It would be a wasted effort. So, I would not recommend doing it in a 2024. And honestly, when we recommended it in 2020 it was for a really extreme scenario, and in hindsight, I’m not sure we would’ve made the same recommendation. Its not easy to do for those that have done it themselves, a I’ve done it myself. Its not super easy. And so, we’re really glad that we got to take that revised lube system strategy to all Corvettes. And now anybody that wants to tracks their car or don’t track their car doesn’t have to worry about whether they have to add two liters or not and am I going to be that person that drives so extreme, maybe I need two liters, maybe I don’t. Takes that question out of it.

 

^^^
Interesting that Motul calls FFL-4 a specification.

 

I noticed that. Its interesting because Pentosin/Fuchs never claim it as a specification - its more like the name of a product, like Mobil 1 ESP X3 or Mobil 1 ESP X4, or Dexron 1, Dexron 2. X3, X4, 1, 2 are names of the product, distinguishing different product formulations. As noted there is a difference between recommendation, approvals, and specifications met. In the attached page from Fuchs, it claims no specification for the Pentosin FFL-4 product (which is now renamed Fuch Titan FFL-4 but otherwise the same), one approval Getrag, and a list of recommended applications. And Pentosin/Fuchs claims it was "specially developed for GETRAG transmissions in performance BMW and McLaren cars." Not GM specific.

Pentosin FFL-4 predates the C8 by quite a bit - I do not know how far back, but the attached safety data sheet about Pentosin FFL-4 has an issue date of June 2016, well before the C8.

 

I'll make a conjecture based on my experience of how the C8 DCT wound up with FFL-4 fluid.

Tremec decided to get into the DCT business and purchased Hoerbiger Drivetrain Mechatronics. When a new transmission is developed the transmission engineers work closely with lubrication engineers (if they are smart) to ensure compatible materials, etc. are chosen and the desired fluid properties can be obtained. Hoerbiger likely already had a standing relationship with Pentosin. It is a win-win situation since the transmission engineers benefit from the experience and expertise of the lubrication engineers and the lubrication company will likely become the recommended supplier of the fluid. It appears that the existing Pentosin/Fuchs FFL-4 formulation met the Tremec requirements and the ACDelco fluid is just repackaged Fuchs Titan FFL-4.

Are there other fluids that are as good or better than the ACDelco fluid? Probably, they just haven't been tested as extensively (or at all) by the lubrication companies in the TR9080 for any nuances about their formulations. So the end users are now becoming the testers.

 

^^^
Agree it's complex but regardless of who packages and how "close" it might be to another or is another Lub better or worse is not a simple to define.

From the ~6-page lubrication tech article I had condensed and posted some time ago they noted "additives" are the key to performance. It was stated a lubricating fluid could contain 30% additives and some were expensive. I just searched and a few are interesting as is the recommend % to add by the manufacture for one (probably high for marketing reasons!) That original Form Post summary also stated some additives are time based (which led to a GM Tech-Link quoting the comment in my Forum Post and said dealer techs might use to say why the fluid must be changed in 3 years! That was later replaced with a pic of the Bottle showing it had 3-year shelf life.)

But considering the C8 DCT must have performance and viscosity to deal with wet clutches and the Pinion Ring gear high loads that a normal Dif fluid is much higher viscosity. So extreme pressure additives are no doubt important as the C8 DCT fluid viscosity is very different than a high viscosity Dif Lub. It must do it all. It must also deal with the eLSD and Posi controlled multi clutch plate slipping. Do they all have different levels of additives, no doubt!

Summarizing what I just searched:
DCT transmission fluids additives include friction modifiers, wear protectants, and anti-wear agents, as well as additives that prevent oxidation, corrosion, and foaming.

Friction Modifiers:
HiTEC 3460 by Aftom Chemicals
HiTEC® 3460 is a Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) additive package formulated for a wide range of OEM vehicles. It's designed specifically for use as a service-fill wet DCT additive for European, Asian and American vehicles equipped with wet dual clutch transmissions. Recommended use rate of 12.80% weight.

Wear Protectants:
Lubegard LXE: Offers friction durability, unrivaled shear stability, and superior wear protection.It is bio-based and composed of the fatty acid of a high erucic acid containing seed oil esterified with an expensive and rare alcohol3.

Anti-oxidants: Prevent the breakdown of the fluid due to oxidation, which can lead to deposits and sludge formation.
Anti-corrosion agents: Protect the transmission from corrosion caused by moisture and other factors.
Anti-foaming agents: Reduce the formation of excessive foam, which can interfere with proper lubrication and transmission operation.
Viscosity modifiers: Maintain the correct viscosity of the fluid across a wide range of temperatures.

In addition to these, DCT fluids also contain various synthetic base oils, such as PAO (polyalphaolefins) and esters. These base oils provide superior lubrication and thermal stability, essential for the demanding conditions of a DCT

Have no idea what is in the Tremec specified DCT Lub but no doubt it's not simple!

 

The ring and pinion in the TR9080 are spiral cut gears vs the hypoid gears in a traditional differential. This eliminates the sliding contact of the hypoid gears which usually presents a challenge of providing high sliding contact pressure lubrication while still providing the friction required for synchronizer rings and wet clutches to work. The lubrication requirements of the TR9080 R&P probably isn't that much more severe than the other gears in the DCT.

I'm also wary of any fluid that claims to be a universal fluid. Valvoline claims to be able to be used in applications that require FFL-2 fluid and FL-4 fluid. However if you do a search for "can FFL-4 fluid be used to replace FFL-2 transmission fluid" the answer is generally no.

 

^^^
I had to replace the Dif fluid in my Street Rod rear end as the synthetic lub used was not what Currie, who built the narrowed rear, recommended for the Posi they included. They specified the friction modifier I was to add with non-synthetic gear lub. Solved my chatter issue making shape turns. So it's not just the gears. Lots going on in a DCT!

Yep we can guess what is similar but until proven I'll stick with the GM Spec'd product.

BTW, probably a reason GM used a 3.55:1 pinion ring with an intermediate gear to get 5.17:1 final ratio! Versus this 5.28:1 shown for a "9 inch Ford" rear below!

 

And, related to that point, the article that was referenced above in another post, about the how actress Emelia Hartford partnered with Motul for the announcement of their new high torque DCT fluid, discusses the additive package at some length, implying a tradeoff between protection in a high torque application and "drag and shift" feel that results with too much additive.
"Using either OEM fluids and Motul's blends, the transaxle needs to use DCT fluid that provides lubrication, while also preventing the harsh drag and shift feel that results from increasing the additive package too much."

Which I think goes to your point about the definition of better or worse.

https://www.hotcars.com/emelia-hartf...tul-dct-fluid/

 

^^^^
Yep what might work fine for Hartford's 1000 hp Drag Car may not be best for the clutches GM says should last the life of the car!

 

The title of this thread is: DCT Maintenance - Making it Simple

Here is some simple truth: There are other proven FFL-4 type DCT lubricants that work well in the Tremec TR-9080 besides Fuchs based "GM" products.

Valvoline DCT is one of them. I know this for a fact because I and many others have run it in our own cars, some in extreme use cases. When I do a DCT service on the ERay at 2,500 miles, Valvoline will be the DCT lubricant used. Myself and several other's also use Valvoline DCT in our McLaren and Ferrari vehicles with MSRP's 4x the cost of a C8 Corvette. My local Chevy dealers, McLaren and Ferrari dealers have zero problems with Valvoline DCT especially when it is changed yearly.

As said earlier, I do appreciate all the opinions and "bench racing" banter to a certain point. But after that point, there are those of us that do, and those of us that talk about doing.

I am certainly not a Valvoline sales rep, but, they released their Synthetic DCT fluid in 2020 as the C8 Corvette was being released. They have stated directly that they tested the C8 Corvette extensively, hence the reason Valvoline will recommend in published fitment guides and in direct correspondence/email to me and others the use of their DCT fluid in the C8 Corvette followed with "Valvoline stands behind all of its products, including Dual Clutch ATF. Use of Dual Clutch ATF in transmissions where recommended by Valvoline WILL NOT void the vehicle's warranty. In the unlikely event that you or your customer experiences any transmission issues while using Dual Clutch ATF in a Valvoline recommended application, please contact Valvoline at 1-800-Team-VAL for assistance."

Valvoline is an American company, a top-tier lubricant manufacturer, and major sponsor of motorsport racing at the highest levels. Their products are high quality, widely available, and cost effective.

OEM warranty problems on performance cars related to ANY lubricant use is an urban myth that NOBODY has any direct knowledge of. Does anyone think for a minute that if there was a SINGLE actual case of a Corvette DCT related failure or warranty problem caused by the use of "unauthorized" Valvoline DCT fluid that it would not circle the earth in car forums in less than 2 hours? Does anyone think that a company the size of Valvoline with products on the shelf of every retailer would continue to recommend one of their products in writing for an expensive and highly visible American icon sports car if they had knowledge their products caused problems? Really?

 

has anyone come up with a solution to clean the filter threads? I'd be willing to buy whatever that product diy might be.

 

I've never had an issue with the threads in the filter housing. I think there is more risk in running a thread chaser in an out to be honest. I'd take a fastener , clean up the threads of thread locker and run it in and out a time or two if you're concerned. 53in-lbs final torque of course when final assembling.

 

Try and find a post in this thread that makes any negative comment about Valvoline.

You keep saying this:

"The title of this thread is: DCT Maintenance - Making it Simple. Here is some simple truth: There are other proven FFL-4 type DCT lubricants that work well in the Tremec TR-9080 besides Fuchs based "GM" products. Valvoline DCT is one of them. I know this for a fact because I and many others have run it in our own cars, some in extreme use cases.....As said earlier, I do appreciate all the opinions and "bench racing" banter to a certain point. But after that point, there are those of us that do, and those of us that talk about doing"

as if someone said something negative about Valvoline or other dual clutch transmission fluids, or said anything about "voiding a warranty" in this thread.

Others can speak for themselves but I certainly did not. I pointed out that GM specifies the transmission fluid as specific brand names (Fuchs Titan FFL-4, Pentosin FFL-4, ACDelco DCTF FFL-4) rather than referencing a transmission fluid specification. That is just a fact. And I said (in post 27), "Notable to me is that both GM and Tremec recommend a specific product by name.......I’m not saying there is anything wrong with any of the products discussed.....If you choose a product other than the ones recommended by GM and Tremec, such as Valvoline, Amalie, or Amsoil, you are basing that choice on something other than the OEM recommendation, such as the reputation of the lubricant manufacturer, or reported use of the product by other." And, I think that is the point you are making - you cited reasons for choosing the product as being that Valvoline is a reputable company, they have recommended their product for use in the C8, and the product is being used and recommended by others. And I think the additional information that you offered about its background and use goes to that point and is very useful to others that seek either better performance or lower cost in a transmission fluid. And I never said otherwise - ignoring (until now) some of your cracks about "do vs dolng" and "bench racing".

I never mentioned any warranty concern in any of my previous posts. A search for warranty in this thread indicates that you brought up the warranty concern in 4 posts. No one else even mentioned it.

And, as for the title of the thread, you are the one that first offered a comment (post 20) about the use of Valvoline in post 20, in response to a question (post 18) about Valvoline from the originator (breecher7) of this thread (DCT Maintenance - Keeping it Simple". My response in post 27 was factual information how GM specifies the transmission fluid by brand name, and and how other lubricant makers (Amalie, Amsoil, Valvoline as examples) recommend their product for use in the C8. I never made any negative comment about any of those products.