CentralCoaster

No I can't pull off .50s consistently, I doubt I'll ever match that night again. I usually an in the .520-530 range and never over .550, but seem to end up closer to perfect towards the final rounds when everything gets more competitive.


The early rounds are easier, as you're more likely to run a new guy, I usually dial low and run it out to try and get a better dial in. I hate letting off for an early easy win out of fear of breaking out.

Another thing I tried was practicing sandbagging on the heads-up runs against slower cars. First time I tried I locked up the brakes at 80mph (1/8th). The girl racing me heads up told me afterwards she almost **** her pants seeing that in front of her.

Glensgages

When I made that post as Reply #3, we 'assumed' that his opponent had been left-on by .02-seconds, and I suggested that the only way his opponent could take the stripe first, after being left-on by .02, was to out-run him by .021 (or-more ) in-relation to their respective dial-ins:
if Central Coaster races his opponent all-out to the stripe, side-by-side, and runs .01 under his dial-in, his opponent would have-to run .031 (or-more ) under HIS dial-in to take the stripe first.

Everything-else you say is correct..... in a double-breakout race, the racer LEAST-under his dial-in wins, reagrdless who crosses the stripe first.


Sorry for the poor description in my earlier post.
:o

Fuzzy Dice

I was.. ...plenty of solder and teflon tape and I'm good to go...

Fuzzy Dice

I saw a race recently where the slower car was left on...he caught the faster car but lost on a double break out...the lesson here is if you get left on and you are going to lose anyway, push your oponent as hard as you can and then throw out the anchor before the stripe...had he done this he would have won by breaking out less...

ralph

Joe......let me come at this a different way. If you had a .032 advantage on the tree AND you cut the margin at the stripe to under .032.....you can't lose (breakout or otherwise). And if you know you've been treed, like Fuzzy said, pin your ears back, hit the nitrous, put on the after bunrers, or whatever and run it as far as you can before cutting your opponent loose. Of course it's usually impossible to know if you've been treed, but i'll use that strategy if i know i missed the tree.

Fuzzy Dice

You are correct, Ralph...I didn't explain it very well...let's say you are the slower car and you snooze at the light...you end up leaving about the same time as your faster opponent...you be in trouble big time!...the only hope you have at that point is the strategy I mentioned above...push your opponent like hell and bomb it at the stripe....

Ralph is also right when he says there are times when we just know we missed the tree whether we leave first or second..same strategy applies but it's a bit trickier...

kazman

I call it the Homer Simson tree. DOAH. A late tree is far better than going dead and red.

C5pilot

Ralph, I keep going over and over that race in my head and I'm just now beginning to see what happened. After realizing he wasn't going to catch me, I dumped him and took the stripe by 3' (which for a novice, I think is pretty close). All I can say is, judging from his MPH he beat me to the punch and dumped me just a moment before. Nothing bites more than a great light followed by a breakout.

kazman

Joe, how much strip did you take? It should be between .019-.010. There is a difference between backing into and dumping. Dumping is when you let the other person take the strip by hitting the breaks hard while lifting off the gas. You trying to get the MOV as large as possible waiting as close to the finish line as you can. Backing back is when you keep the gas to the floor and tap (jab) the brake pedel with your left foot. A jab should take off about .02. When you have the slower car you should make your first "adjustment" right after the 1000' mark. Listen you your instint which is usually right. Then look again and back into again if necessary. I still don't get it right every time. I didn't listen to my initial feel and didn't back into the car at the 1000', took the strip by .05 (too much) and was sent home for the season by the red sled. I lost the tree battle on that one but had the opportunity to win the war on the top end of the track. Good luck to ya Saturday.

C5pilot

I took the stripe by .0482 on the brakes. The MOV was .0162 and he was also on the brakes (12.062 @ 113.50). Here's the whole slip...

12.10 -- 12.77
.060 --- .028
1.701 -- 1.954
4.936 -- 5.443
7.684 -- 8.267
88.55 -- 87.18
10.065 - 10.685
12.062 - 12.716
113.50 - 109.54
-WIN-

My guess is he was trying to sandbag but his light cost him enough that he couldn't catch up to my slower car. He pushed me over the line knowing full well he was going to cut me loose. If I had cut my normal 60' he'd been dead before he started. Ah, the joys of learning a new car.

Glensgages

I can 'feel-your-pain', as I recently began racing my stock '82 Cross- Fire, in a sea of 12-second C5s, @ Bradenton Motorsports Park's RevXtreme Corvette Challenge Series :
I'd made about 2 dozen runs, in time-trial only mode, 3 years ago, just to see what (little ) she'd do, and although it 'seems' very sensitive to water-temp, even-then, it doesn't make good back-to-back runs, regardless if I shift it myself, or let it do the shifting for me, and the incrementals make no sense, either.

3 weeks-ago, I got 3 pre-elimination time-shots, and here is the run-data:
all runs made deep-staging, 700R4 shifting itself.

#1, made after driving the car 2 miles around the pits after unloading it from the trailer, to warm-up the fluids:
launch @ idle (600 RPM ), just get a 'feel' for the tree on my maiden run at BMP
R.T. : 0.152
060' : 2.365
660' : 10.273 @ 68.17
1/4 : 15.994 @ 86.17

#2, made 20 minutes later, launch RPM raised to 1000 for better RT, and not-content that 400-more RPM would deliver the desired RT that I wanted, I swigged a 32 oz. Diet Pepsi w/ caffeine:
R.T. : 0.067
060' : 2.276
660' : 10.302 @ 67.16
1/4 : 16.115 @ 84.83

I theorize car lost better-than a tenth due to water-temp being warm, and make mental note:
also decide to gulp another 32 oz Diet Pepsi w/ caffeine each round until I am eliminated, to help RT.

#3, made 20 mintes later, and will use same launch RPM for rest of this event:
R.T. : 0.044
060' : 2.315
660' : 10.349 @ 67.15
1/4 : 16.156 @ 84.93

I guess car is still warm, but running within .04 of TT #2, so I prepare for Round #1, the first-time ever I'd tried dialing-in a computer-operated EFI-car.

Round #1..... staff at BMP throughly preps the track before eliminations begin, giving us plenty of time to cool-off the cars, but I leave mine warm, figuring it will remain somewhat consistent (if-slow ) in doing-so:
even with the extended cool-down time, I dial-in @ "16.09" , figuring the car may've cooled-off a bit, resulting in a quicker time than 16.15, but the sun is up, and it is getting slightly warmer, too.

We figure the '82 will go 16.11 or .12, but against a much-faster closing opponent, "16.09" it is:
slurp another Diet Pepsi, find the nearest Men's Room, and jump in the car for Eliminations.

R.T. : 0.033
060' : 2.307 (notice, it is just slightly better than final TT )
660' : 10.232 @ 67.76 (compare most-previous 660' data )


As I go-past the 1/8-mile mark, I begin to think my opponent, in a Silver C4 dialed "13.23" , may-not catch me, so I plan to toss-out the anchor, keeping in-mind my car 'probably' won't run the number anyhow:
near the 1000'-mark, I burp the throttle, once, twice, and finally a 3rd time, completely off the pedal, and I am still not backing-up-enough to him, so I coast most of the last 200', dragging the brakes as I pass the first MPH cone, with him well-behind me, confident I haven't run-under.....

..... and HIS win-light comes-on!


Even though I had a slight starting-line advantage on my opponent ( .033 to .055 ), and in-spite of the fact that I tried scrubbing-off enough ET (I figured he could out-MPH me by almost 20 MPH on an all-out run ), I lost because I had run a 16.015 at 'just' 81.75 MPH:
based-on my 1st TT run of 15.994 having a 1000'-time of 13.387, and this semi-aborted run having a 1000'-time of 13.364 (I was .04-quicker at the 1/8-mile on this run, too ), I figured this run 'could've-been' a 15.94-ish type of run, so I applied for welfare (buy-backs ), and dialed-in at "15.96" , figuring the car would slow-down just a few hundredths for my 2nd Round run, made just 21 minutes later.....

For this run against a C5 dialed "12.90" , I was placed in the Left-lane, my first-ever run in that lane, and the glare from the sun was quite-different from my previous, Right-lane runs:
there is no-excuse for a .103 RT in eliminations.


The rest of that run's data is:
060' : 2.312
660' : 6.658
Although I'd had my 3rd straight 60'-times within .008-seconds (2.315, 2.307, & 2.312), notice how-far the times to 330' varied on those runs (6.701, 6.620, & 6.658 ), a variance of .081:
this car isn't consistent the length of a football field!


My opponent, who left-on me by .022, blew-past me before I hit the 1000'-stripe, and dumped on me, winning with a run of 12.959 at 'just' 104.99 MPH, while I limped to the stripe with an all-out E.T. of 16.109 @ 83.95 MPH:
even if I had a perfect .000 RT, I'd have lost, as I ran .149-slower than my dial-in, while my opponent's package was .140.


I have the upgraded '85 fuel-pump already in the car, which is 'supposed' to increase performance and consistency, but I suspect the fuel/ignition metering is making adjustments that I can't compensate for (the Cross-Fire was only in-production from '82 through '84, and they can't be 're-programmed' easily like the newer style EFI cars ), and I am not sure if the OEM 700R4 is capable of delivering bracket-like consistency, with it's lock-up torque converter:
these cars were 'ahead-of-their-time' in the early-1980s, but their computer-systems are probably pre-historic, compared to what is offered today.


I have no knowledge of how to 'run' one of these EFI/computer-controlled cars, so until I can rip-out that stuff and replace it with a carbed SBC in-front of a traditional THM400 transmission, I am dead-meat, but will continue to participate (i.e. - contribute to the Winner's Purse ) at Bradenton, hoping to encourage other area Corvette-owners to join me in doing what our cars were made to do:
RACE!!!!!

ralph

Yikes Glenn.......i'm glad i dont have to race that car. I assume you have a recent tune up in it and it's mechanically sound. I'll admit i know nothing about the crossfire system, but you might try fixed resistors on some of the sensors while racing. Make the computer think it's always 85 deg and the engine is always 180 deg or something like that. How does it monitor air flow (speed density, MAF, someting else)? Make sure that is working properly. Does the computer control timing? Can you over ride that and lock it at the desired timing when racing?

While it might not be the best choice for drag racing, I don't think your 700R is the problem, unless theres something wrong with it. I know lots of cars with 700s that repeat well. You might try shifting it yourself to make sure the gov is working properly. They can be significantly affected by tranny fluid temps, but it sounds like you kept the temps fairly consistent.

I also can't tell how the weather changed over the course of the day, but based on your slips, there doesn't seem to be any pattern.

Lastly, if you plan to compete frequently, you might want to consider an electric water pump. I can completely cool the engine in 5 min or less. For any given day, I usually pick a temp that i know i can achieve before i start my burnout and I can usually get my oil and coolant within a few degrees for each run. It was a PITA and $ installation, but it might have been one of the best mods i made for racing. Before the electric pump, i sometimes couldn't completely cool the car and in a certain set of conditions, the car would fall on its face...missing by like 2 tenths. And i couldn't figure out the exact set of conditions that caused it. There are some tests that the 85 computer runs only when the coolant is over a certain temp and other coniditions are met.....i assume that is what was happening. Now with the elec pump, i don;t have to worry about it anymore.

Good luck.

P.S. If that don;t work....dial 17.00 and get real good at the stripe.....Mackey style.

mackeyred96

These cars are simple to race with and win.
You pick a dial, cut a light, and cross the Finish line ahead of your opponent with out breaking out.

Sounds easy to me.

Glensgages

You and me, BOTH!!!!!


When I bought the car, it was to be something my ex-wife and I could 'enjoy' as we got-older since we

decided my racing-days were over, and I thought getting a Cease-Fire was a 'plus', because it'd be much-harder to make into a decent bracket-car, keeping the 'racing-monster' in it's cave:
six weeks after I got the car, my priorities changed (she left ), and although some have and can compete successfully with the CFI, instead of spending the time & money on it, I'll 'settle' for making donations to the RevXtreme Winner's Purse Fund each month, until I can make the car more competitive.


Before leaving Taxylvania, the intake manifold gaskets and radiator were changed-out, and a buddy who knows his way around a CFI gave it's electrical & mechanical systems (as-well-as the 700R4 ) a clean bill of health:
in my previous test-runs on the car, even shifting it by-hand/eye resulted in runs that made no-sense, and with having a vacant house with a "FOR-SALE" sign in-front of it 1000 miles away following my recent move, trying to start-up a business from scratch, and looking for a new home to purchase, having a competitive car is the least of my concerns.


My fiancee really enjoys driving-around in the '82 occasionally when we aren't racing it, or I'd have an electric water-pump on that sucker right-now:
I recall making 3 runs within 17 minutes of each-other, trying to finish a race before a storm blew-in off of Lake Erie once in Ohio, going 13.07, 13.06, and 13.07 back-to-back-to-back, and I agree that NOTHING cools-off a motor as-quickly as they do.


Last month was only my 4th 'race' (non test-n-tune session ) since the 1993 NHRA Division One Bracket Finals in Reading, Pa., and although I may possibly be at a competitive-disadvantage with the car, I'm 'enjoying' just being at the track again, thinking and strategizing, and trying to remember what I have forgotten about bracket-racing:
much to my surprise, as I left the track last week, a competitor (upon looking at my time-slips amd seeing for himself how goofy the Miss-Fire runs ) offered me the use of HIS car at future races, which I declined.


'Our' last race at BMP is this Saturday morning, and to pick a dial-in, I am considering opening the phone-book, plopping my finger down, and using the last 4-digits of the phone-number shown:
it CAN'T be any-worse that what I can do.....

Fuzzy Dice

I feel your pain, brotha...you may recall my tribulations at Moroso last spring...my car has varied 4/10's on runs within an hour of each other without a change in the weather...lol

My last time out at Lakeland I went 8.51 in both time shots with a 1.85 short time...I thought I was in for a big night...ha!...I come up against a 7.70 car in the first round...I dial 8.49 and run it out the back...yup, Loser....I run an 8.41 with, get this, a 1.87 short time...first thing I did was check a TAG and the DA was unchanged from my last time shot...it'll drive ya nuts...he he he

TLewis4095

LOL! Glen, you know bracket racing gets in your blood for good! NO ESCAPE!

I have seen to many drivers leave good (a slower car than their opponant) get to the finish line and never look over for the other car & break-out when a glance to see they are a car length ahead & a little brakes would have won them the race.....

Glensgages

TLewis4095 :

please bring one bottle of GEDDEX Dial-In marking-fluid to BMP tomorrow for me:

I'll be the ugly, blind-folded S-o-B, using a roulette-wheel for picking my dial-in.

ralph

what do ya need dial-in for? just chisel 17.00 into the glass and leave it there

Glensgages

..... 'cause the car might slow-down (even-more ), and I might be required to dial-in 3 digits to the LEFT of the decimal-point
(a.k.a. : 117.02 ).


Besides..... if it 'appears' I am changing my dial-in every round, maybe my opponents will 'THINK' that I know what I am doing, coercing them into making a fatal mistake against me.....

kazman

Joe, you took stripe by 9.6283' A little less that 1/2 a car. A bit too much. You want to take the strip by .019 to .010 . I don't consider holding .05 sandbagging.