Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427
06-28-2002, 12:17 PM
#41
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (Monty)
The Innovative contoller is a real nice piece. Did you get FAST datalogs for the pulls ? Did the wastegates control down to 10 psi on the first pull and then you used the boost controller to up the boost on the later pulls ? Basically - The wastegates were working like they should. If the wastegates were working right you'll like the controller.
06-28-2002, 01:52 PM
#42
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (SloRvette)
Yeah, I was looking at either the Innovative or the HKS boost controllers.
We took .LOG's of eahc run, and it shows the 2-bar map sensor maxed out at 15 psi byt around 5800 rpm, so after that we guess the boost reached around 18 or so by 6800-7000rpm. We kept blowing pipes off abouve 6800 rpm we never got to see what it'd make at 7000. It made 1185hp at 6700 and was still climbing some 30hp every 100rpm, so I know it's a 1200hp engine in it's current mild tune. Once the intercooler gets mounted back in the car, firmly in place, the pipes should stay in place better, but for good measure, I'm going to weld a small bead aorund the end of each pipe to give something for the nomex hoses and t-bolt clamps to grab.
I'm only running 10# springs (blue)in the wastegates, and we never opened up the boost controller, so boost was only going into the side port of the wastegates, which should help them open, but it still made more boost. Jeff at Fast Times verified that the controller and wastegates are plumbed correctly. I spoke with Precision yesterday, and they said it's not uncommon to make more than the rated boost especially on a dyno. So i'm gonna swap in 5# springs (white) and use the controller to raise it as necessary.
Regardless, it still ran well and didn't detonate, so I'm not too concerned, but it's just curious. The wastegate inlet are plumbed off the collectors in a "y" so we know the design is good, it's the same way TRZ has always designed their racecars.
One neat thing is that even at an estimated 18psi of boost, the intake air temp on reached 126F, and that's with nothing more than a small floor fan going over the air/air intercooler, in the dyno room which was at least 90F+. Precision told me the their 50 series turbo's were efficient, I'd say so.
I'm just glad I didn't try to run the wastegates with the 20# springs (purple) that came in them initially!
[Modified by Monty, 11:54 AM 6/28/2002]
We took .LOG's of eahc run, and it shows the 2-bar map sensor maxed out at 15 psi byt around 5800 rpm, so after that we guess the boost reached around 18 or so by 6800-7000rpm. We kept blowing pipes off abouve 6800 rpm we never got to see what it'd make at 7000. It made 1185hp at 6700 and was still climbing some 30hp every 100rpm, so I know it's a 1200hp engine in it's current mild tune. Once the intercooler gets mounted back in the car, firmly in place, the pipes should stay in place better, but for good measure, I'm going to weld a small bead aorund the end of each pipe to give something for the nomex hoses and t-bolt clamps to grab.
I'm only running 10# springs (blue)in the wastegates, and we never opened up the boost controller, so boost was only going into the side port of the wastegates, which should help them open, but it still made more boost. Jeff at Fast Times verified that the controller and wastegates are plumbed correctly. I spoke with Precision yesterday, and they said it's not uncommon to make more than the rated boost especially on a dyno. So i'm gonna swap in 5# springs (white) and use the controller to raise it as necessary.
Regardless, it still ran well and didn't detonate, so I'm not too concerned, but it's just curious. The wastegate inlet are plumbed off the collectors in a "y" so we know the design is good, it's the same way TRZ has always designed their racecars.
One neat thing is that even at an estimated 18psi of boost, the intake air temp on reached 126F, and that's with nothing more than a small floor fan going over the air/air intercooler, in the dyno room which was at least 90F+. Precision told me the their 50 series turbo's were efficient, I'd say so.
I'm just glad I didn't try to run the wastegates with the 20# springs (purple) that came in them initially!
[Modified by Monty, 11:54 AM 6/28/2002]
06-29-2002, 12:33 AM
#44
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (Monty)
The boost control sounds like it's showing how effiecent the exhaust side of those turbos are. There isn't the back pressure in the headers to open up the 'gates. Is there a spring tension adjust on the top of the 'gates ?
Last time out with my Buick I was seeing a delta temp - ambient to intake of about 30 degrees @ 15 psi.
If you can't bead roll the pipes, weld bead is the next best thing. If that doesn't work you can weld tabs on each side of the junction and bolt it together along with the nomex hose and t-bolts.
Last time out with my Buick I was seeing a delta temp - ambient to intake of about 30 degrees @ 15 psi.
If you can't bead roll the pipes, weld bead is the next best thing. If that doesn't work you can weld tabs on each side of the junction and bolt it together along with the nomex hose and t-bolts.
06-29-2002, 04:16 AM
#45
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427
that is totally amazing. Though Monty, When I had my wastegate lines running to a T I was boosting in a range of 12 to 15 psi. I have 5 psi Springs in my wastegates.
I relocated the lines to the compressor outlet on each side (so that each turbo will read exactly what that turbo is putting out). and now I hit 6 psi perfect. Tomarrow if it's not raining I will take my car out to test run it now that I have my timing more controlled.
Though I am almost certain I am leaning out under boost. It explains all my problems.. I will confirm that tomarrow.. Hopefully when I am all done.. I will have HALF the HP as you..
But it's cool..
I relocated the lines to the compressor outlet on each side (so that each turbo will read exactly what that turbo is putting out). and now I hit 6 psi perfect. Tomarrow if it's not raining I will take my car out to test run it now that I have my timing more controlled.
Though I am almost certain I am leaning out under boost. It explains all my problems.. I will confirm that tomarrow.. Hopefully when I am all done.. I will have HALF the HP as you..
But it's cool..
06-29-2002, 10:06 AM
#46
Le Mans Master
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (SloRvette)
SloRvette,
Jeff at Fast Times and Patrick at Precision both said the same thing you did - regarding the efficiency of the exhaust side and reduced backpressure contributing to the increased boost. I didn't really understand it at the time.
There's no "screw type" spring tension on the wastegates, I think those are only on the Racegates. Mine just have a boost/vacuum port on top, and another one on the side. The one's on the side are below the diaphram and are connected directly through the intake manifold so that boost can help open the 'gate. The top one's are connected through the boost controller, so that as I open the valve boost is applied to the top of the diaphram helping to hold the valve closed, and equalizing the boost applied to the side.
Sounds like my intake temps on the dyno are consistent with your in the real work then. The ambient temp outside was in the low 90's, probably more in the enclosed dyno room, and the IAC was reading 126F max inside the manifold.
I wouldn't be able to roll bead the pipes between the compressors and the intercooler, they are made from 16gauge 2" 304 stainless steel. I'll just TIG weld a bead around them. The aluminum 4" pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body was roll beaded. Unfortunately, the pipe is coming off of the TB, not the pipe itself. At that connection, I'm gonna have to create some kind of bracket as you suggested.
WashingtonRacer,
I discussed the placement of the wastegate actuator signal with Precision and the guys at Fast Times. My understanding is that connecting the wastegate to the tapped port in the compressor housing will provide the best control over the wastegate in terms of response and it's ability to control boost to a given value. However, you lose some torque and spool since the wastegate will begin to open at the earliest point. But one benefit is reduced intake temps since the entire system will never see much more boost than the basic wastegate setting, avoiding heatsoaking the intercooler.
The way that I have it plumbed, from the intake manifold behind the throttle body, provides the best turbo response since it keeps the turbo spooled longer, but it does introduce more heat into the intake as a result. Since we already know the intake temp didn't rise mroe than 126F, I can live with that. My thinking was that since this is a street car, the better turbo response would aid drivability.
I might try porting it off of the compressor housing though. Are you wastegates dual port like mine, oneport on the side under the diaphram, and one port on top over the diaphram. I would guess that you would connect the port on the side of the wastegate to the turbo, so boost could help open the gate, but what do you do with the port on top - leave it open, plug it with a pipe plug, or connect it to the boost controller? Leavng it open would allow the wastegate to open the easiest since there would be nothing pressing against the spring/diaphram, and using the boost controller would allow you to apply boost to the top of the diaphram to increase boost...
[Modified by Monty, 8:20 AM 6/29/2002]
Jeff at Fast Times and Patrick at Precision both said the same thing you did - regarding the efficiency of the exhaust side and reduced backpressure contributing to the increased boost. I didn't really understand it at the time.
There's no "screw type" spring tension on the wastegates, I think those are only on the Racegates. Mine just have a boost/vacuum port on top, and another one on the side. The one's on the side are below the diaphram and are connected directly through the intake manifold so that boost can help open the 'gate. The top one's are connected through the boost controller, so that as I open the valve boost is applied to the top of the diaphram helping to hold the valve closed, and equalizing the boost applied to the side.
Sounds like my intake temps on the dyno are consistent with your in the real work then. The ambient temp outside was in the low 90's, probably more in the enclosed dyno room, and the IAC was reading 126F max inside the manifold.
I wouldn't be able to roll bead the pipes between the compressors and the intercooler, they are made from 16gauge 2" 304 stainless steel. I'll just TIG weld a bead around them. The aluminum 4" pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body was roll beaded. Unfortunately, the pipe is coming off of the TB, not the pipe itself. At that connection, I'm gonna have to create some kind of bracket as you suggested.
WashingtonRacer,
I discussed the placement of the wastegate actuator signal with Precision and the guys at Fast Times. My understanding is that connecting the wastegate to the tapped port in the compressor housing will provide the best control over the wastegate in terms of response and it's ability to control boost to a given value. However, you lose some torque and spool since the wastegate will begin to open at the earliest point. But one benefit is reduced intake temps since the entire system will never see much more boost than the basic wastegate setting, avoiding heatsoaking the intercooler.
The way that I have it plumbed, from the intake manifold behind the throttle body, provides the best turbo response since it keeps the turbo spooled longer, but it does introduce more heat into the intake as a result. Since we already know the intake temp didn't rise mroe than 126F, I can live with that. My thinking was that since this is a street car, the better turbo response would aid drivability.
I might try porting it off of the compressor housing though. Are you wastegates dual port like mine, oneport on the side under the diaphram, and one port on top over the diaphram. I would guess that you would connect the port on the side of the wastegate to the turbo, so boost could help open the gate, but what do you do with the port on top - leave it open, plug it with a pipe plug, or connect it to the boost controller? Leavng it open would allow the wastegate to open the easiest since there would be nothing pressing against the spring/diaphram, and using the boost controller would allow you to apply boost to the top of the diaphram to increase boost...
[Modified by Monty, 8:20 AM 6/29/2002]
06-29-2002, 11:41 AM
#47
Drifting
Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (Monty)
Monty: What changes have you made to chassis/suspension/brakes to keep this Rocket running straight and cornering smooth? I have read Merlin 522 and you seem to be in a similar situation "BIG POWER". Any ideas the rest of us can use on our cars? You have done well, I'm very impressed!
06-29-2002, 03:08 PM
#48
Le Mans Master
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (Taijutsu)
Admittedly, I still need to address the differential. My plan is to install forged 31 spline spindles and yokes, along with new halfshafts that are upgraded to solid 1350 ujoints. I am installing halfshaft loops, and a driveshaft loop as well. I am also looking into the 6-link systems that are out there as well, to eliminate the c-clips on the inner spindles. I'm sticking with road race type tires, so it will be intentionally traction limited (in a straight line) to help ease the load on the rear end. If I can't get the stock type IRS to work, I am looking into some of the Ford 9" based IRS kits. Unfortunately, the off-the-shelf selection of bolt in parts is pretty limited, but as with the engine, I'm not afraid of doing my homework and designing/fabricating something "one off" to fit my needs.
I already have a built 4L80E, a custom Denny's driveshaft with 1350 ujoints and forged yokes, as well as a Reactor aluminum flexplate.
As for the suspension, I've been running the full VB&P setup fro several years, including the front transverse leaf spring with tubular upper and lower control arms, low friction ball-joints, uniball control arm bushings, spreader bar, 1 1/8" sway bar, rear dual mount transverse leaf spring, 3/4" rear bar, offset control arms, Smart Struts, etc. All the bushings are urethane except the solid uniball control arm bushings. I've got HAL/QA1 12pt adjustable shocks on all 4 corners.
Brakes are my next project. right now I'm just running the heavy duty stainless sleeved calipers from VB&P, the one's with the composite insert on the pistons. I've got new rotors all the way around, all brakes lines are stainless steel, along with s.s braided hoses, along with Performance Friction pads.
However my plan is to fabricate some brackets this winter to accomodate the installation of some 6 piston Alcon, AP, or Brembo brakes up front and 4 piston in the rear, with larger rotors. Since no one seems to offer serious brake upgrades for our cars anymore, I'm gonna have to figure it out and fabricate it myself. I've seen the Porsche brake kit, but I'm looking for more than that.
It's a work in progress, that's for sure. My goal right now is to just get it back on the road within the next couple of weeks and make improvements along the way. I haven't driven it since last October, so I just want to drive it right now, I won't be pushing it hard or beating on it, just cruising.
I already have a built 4L80E, a custom Denny's driveshaft with 1350 ujoints and forged yokes, as well as a Reactor aluminum flexplate.
As for the suspension, I've been running the full VB&P setup fro several years, including the front transverse leaf spring with tubular upper and lower control arms, low friction ball-joints, uniball control arm bushings, spreader bar, 1 1/8" sway bar, rear dual mount transverse leaf spring, 3/4" rear bar, offset control arms, Smart Struts, etc. All the bushings are urethane except the solid uniball control arm bushings. I've got HAL/QA1 12pt adjustable shocks on all 4 corners.
Brakes are my next project. right now I'm just running the heavy duty stainless sleeved calipers from VB&P, the one's with the composite insert on the pistons. I've got new rotors all the way around, all brakes lines are stainless steel, along with s.s braided hoses, along with Performance Friction pads.
However my plan is to fabricate some brackets this winter to accomodate the installation of some 6 piston Alcon, AP, or Brembo brakes up front and 4 piston in the rear, with larger rotors. Since no one seems to offer serious brake upgrades for our cars anymore, I'm gonna have to figure it out and fabricate it myself. I've seen the Porsche brake kit, but I'm looking for more than that.
It's a work in progress, that's for sure. My goal right now is to just get it back on the road within the next couple of weeks and make improvements along the way. I haven't driven it since last October, so I just want to drive it right now, I won't be pushing it hard or beating on it, just cruising.
06-29-2002, 03:28 PM
#49
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (Monty)
Yes Monty I have a Vacume optional port on top of my wastegates. And that is a very intresting way to plumb the boost controller into that port. That would work. Usually they simplly plumb the boost controller inline on the boost line to the waste gate.
Well I have to go out and test my car and annoy the neighors. (IT's not raining thank god)
Well I have to go out and test my car and annoy the neighors. (IT's not raining thank god)
06-29-2002, 05:01 PM
#50
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (Monty)
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07-01-2002, 03:35 AM
#51
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (NewVetteLover)
Monty, I am speechless!! That is so frigging amazing. I'm really proud of you for sticking with it. You may even end up getting better numbers than my beast. Clearly turbocharging is the way to go for the street. Look how the serious numbers don't come on until high rpm's. That gives you a chance to hook up. By 4,000 rpm I will probably already be at my peak numbers. That is good for drag racing, bad for street power. I'm just so glad to see you finally get everything worked out. I, probably as much as anyone out there can share in how much work, dedication & frustration it takes to get to this point. I really wish we had done an engine dyno because my numbers are going to be at the wheels, not the flywheel so it's going to be tough to compare. I'm thinking with race gas & higher boost you will definitely see close to 1,500HP - which was my goal. Out of a small block. AMAZING!! So based on your numbers it looks like if I go ahead & turbo charge that 708, we could be seeing numbers as high as 2,500HP. YIKES!!!
07-01-2002, 07:52 AM
#52
Le Mans Master
Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (88WHITE VETTE)
Monty. on the intercooler pipes, since they are alum, weld a small strap, and a corresponding block on the other tube and they use a small screw.
I kept blowing hoses apart on my turbo buick, and this fixed it. we are up to running 25 psi on the TE45 turbos.
with two of those, I bet there is about 1800 hp in your engine if you care to crank it. not sure if anything else in the drive train would stand up to that much HP!!! that's the great thing about a turbo engine, more power than you can use.
wretched excess is never enough!!! looking forward to some tales of a ride.
still looking for some good folks to help turbo the ZR1. I now have an LPE 368 which is a good foundation. I will give fast times a call.
they sound like a solid candidate. cya.
I kept blowing hoses apart on my turbo buick, and this fixed it. we are up to running 25 psi on the TE45 turbos.
with two of those, I bet there is about 1800 hp in your engine if you care to crank it. not sure if anything else in the drive train would stand up to that much HP!!! that's the great thing about a turbo engine, more power than you can use.
wretched excess is never enough!!! looking forward to some tales of a ride.
still looking for some good folks to help turbo the ZR1. I now have an LPE 368 which is a good foundation. I will give fast times a call.
they sound like a solid candidate. cya.
07-01-2002, 11:07 PM
#53
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (Merlin522)
merlin522
Just got through viewing Series 25.
Your car is really starting to come together.
I am doing a 66 roadster. I want to have my gauges recalibrated.
Could you give me ClockDocs phone number or web address?
Thanks
noelga
Just got through viewing Series 25.
Your car is really starting to come together.
I am doing a 66 roadster. I want to have my gauges recalibrated.
Could you give me ClockDocs phone number or web address?
Thanks
noelga
07-01-2002, 11:44 PM
#54
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (88WHITE VETTE)
Speechless....just speechless :eek:
07-01-2002, 11:50 PM
#55
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (red90sixspeed)
noelga - Bill Russell 1-800-256-5362 http://www.clockdoc.net Rocketsleds@aol.com
07-02-2002, 03:01 AM
#56
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Re: Dyno Results - Twin Turbo SBC 427 (Merlin522)
Way to go monty again :eek: Talk about a raped ape on the interstate :D
Rkreigh
Might want to give Kooks custom headers a shout. They are up in NY and can get your zr1 turboed if you need I talked to them just didnt want to ship my car cross country for work to be done.
Rkreigh
Might want to give Kooks custom headers a shout. They are up in NY and can get your zr1 turboed if you need I talked to them just didnt want to ship my car cross country for work to be done.
