Guys, don't forget, this is not about the honest hobbyists restoring their cars, it's about how we keep the unscrupulous few from taking advantage of a situation that makes these cars more valuable all the time. The fact that so many Corvettes were hot rodded/wrecked/customized due to their popularity is what makes the cars with the original engines so rare and expensive.

That in turn drives the behavior to create a car that someone can sell for big dollars without actually having to ever invest in one to start with. And by invest I don't just mean dollars but hard work through research and time to find a correct car in the first place.

As far as fender replacement or other parts like that, fenders, parts and trim are not serialized to the car like the frame, transmission and the engine. It is expected that people will have to replace fenders and other parts that wear out or get broken due to an accident.

As for repainting or changing the interior goes, the trim tag will tell you if that was changed so there is no deception there unless the trim tag is changed.

We are talking about changing something that would be very difficult to determine as a buyer because all small blocks of the same generation and all big blocks of the same generation look alike. Most people couldn't tell if a 70 has a 283 in it or a 350. But don't they have the right to know before they pay for it? If you think you are buying an LT-1, and it turns out to be a 160 horse 283 with a restamp, how bad is that?

You can't compare a restamped engine block to a repainted car. Color is not an integral part of the car. It is a cosmetic item. The only thing that makes it desireable for a car to have the correct color is the expense and amount of work of putting it back that way. Maybe you consider the engine to be a cosmetic item. In that case there is no convincing you so we may as well stop here.

Can I interest anyone in my all original ZL1? How about an original Grand Sport?

cc

 

Sure I can. The trim tag tells me the colour is an integral part of the car. Corvettes prior to 1972 had no ID on them to state what the original engine config was. Corvettes from '63 onwards had the paint colour specified on the trim tag. Using pure logic, the paint colour on 63 to 72 cars is more important than the engine config.

If you're talking about lying at the time of sale, all counterfeiting activity is equal in my eyes.

 

A couple of numbers stamped on the block for the purpose of inventory and warranty tracking is integral?
This is something you'd see only if you went looking for it.

Paint is all over, right out front, can't be missed!

I'll bet that most guys don't even know what the serial number on their block is.
But I bet they know the color of the paint.

 

Matching numbers, Bah Hum Bug.. And I have matching number and a non matching Vette's, both off frame re-built, so I can get away with this comment.

 

Don't forget theft reporting and identification.

Yep and try recovering a stolen car with only the color to describe it.

 

Mike, a tag that is riveted to the body is integral versus a number stamped into steel? Surely you can identify which one was intended to be more permanent that the other.

And you're wrong about the Corvettes prior to 1972 not having the engine config on them. They had the VIN deriviative and the ci and hp stamps. I had a 1965 roadster 327/350 and it was easy to identify it from the stampings. But the car was ermine white by my own choice. The trim tag said Milano Maroon and still did when I sold it.

The only thing different with the 1972 and up is they added one letter to the VIN to show what engine the car came with. So what I think you mean is prior to 1972 there is no way to tell what engine a car came with based upon the VIN unless you have all the documentation that came with it.

I agree about lying at the time of sale but there are an awful lot of Corvettes out there with a color change and the original trim tag. The trim tag is not normally changed because it doesn't raise the value of the car enough to make it worthwhile to a crook.

cc

 

My local DMV records the VIN number off the bird cage.
They don't know, or care, what the engine number is.
There is no spot on the DMV form for the engine or frame number.

Again, I'd give them the VIN off the bird cage.
I could give the engine number to the police.
It might help them ID it in a chop shop.

But we are probably in the minority in that we know what our engine's serial number is.
Most guys are probably assuming that the engine number matches the VIN.
But have they checked?

I have to admit, I have no idea if my frame or tranny number matches.
Is the VIN even on the tranny?

Since most of us don't even know what the VIN numbers are on the other parts of the car,
how useful are they in theft reporting and recovery?

 

Correct- I meant the addition of the engine code to the VIN tag, not the presence of the machine code stamped on the pad. The machine code has always been on the pad, the VIN derivative since 1960 (IIRC)

BTW- the VIN tag is merely riveted to the body, same as the trim tag. yet tampering with the VIN is illegal everywhere. Tampering with the trim tag is now illegal in a few states, but is considered counterfeit everywhere in the hobby. Nowhere is it considered illegal or counterfeit to grind off and restamp an engine pad.

It only becomes counterfeit (therefore illegal) if the seller states that a restored piece is original for the purpose of deceit, irrespective of what that piece might be.

There is/was a huge market for counterfeit trim tags that went 'unnoticed' until recently when techniques became available to detect them. A red or marina blue '67 will always be worth more than a goodwood green '67.

 

When there is easy money to be made, the crooks will all get in line. You may be an NCRS purist and re-stamp an engine block with all the good intentions in the world; but by creating the "false image" of an original car, you're just aiding and abetting a future crook. Not that he wouldn't have done it himself [if he had the detailed knowledge that YOU DO], but you helped create the "trail of authenticty" that he will use to scam one of US!!!

 

Don't kid yourself, every police department in the US knows exactly where all of the VIN numbers are hidden on every make of car. They were instrumental in working with the car manufacturers to make it easier to identify stolen cars.

You're right the DMV doesn't care, they're not in charge of law enforcement. That's why here in KS they send you to the Highway Patrol to have any car purchased out of state checked out before they will tag it.

The Highway Patrol runs the numbers against a stolen car list to make sure you have a legal right to tag it. And they do make you open the hood and show the engine's VIN. Since mine is the original engine, I have no idea what they make you go through if it doesn't match.

I do know that if your VIN comes up on the stolen car list, your investment becomes property of the state.

I had to do that with my 72 because I bought it from a dealer in St. Louis, MO.

cc

 

And that's where all 'blame' that's apportioned to the NCRS falls apart.

A correctly configured pad in NCRS judging is roughly equivalent in points value to working dash lights or correct cigarette lighter.

Somebody that spends maybe a grand to get their pad correctly redone vs. 5 bucks for new dash lamps has got ulterior motives in mind.

 

I think that every state/province has rules concerning the first time registration of car brought in from out of state/province.
And yes that would be a good time to check it against stolen car lists.

However, that only covers cars purchased out of state.
Do they continue to check the VIN's every time it changes hands?
Could you put in a stolen engine the day after the check and safely resell the car?
Once you get past the state import check, do they ever check the VIN's again?

Another question:
If during the import check the engine number was found to be different,
but it didn't show up on any stolen list, could they do anything?
Lots of cars get an engine swap without the current owner being aware of it.
Surely, they can't confiscate every car that doesn't have matching numbers, can they?

I'm not from Kansas, so I don't know how it works there.
I know that once a car has been registered in Manitoba,
no one would ever look at those numbers unless it was found in a chop shop.

---------------------------------------------
I'm going to repeat my original question:

Since it is not illegal to machine off the engine # in a rebuild,
and it doesn't seem to be illegal to restamp a number.
(Preferably with the old number, or to match the cars number)

How useful are these numbers to reporting and tracking theft?
You can stamp any number you want on the block.

 

 

Some guys have suggested theft reporting and recovery:
I'm going to guess that it wasn't brought in for our benefit.

Why does it a car get a number to match the car?
Well if I was running a fleet of cars and I blew an engine in a car that was off warranty,
I would be real tempted to swap the bad engine into a car with a warranty and take it in.
Seems like a good way to save some bucks.

Seems like a pretty easy thing to do, until they started putting a matching number on the engine!

So my guess is:
The #1 reason for an engine serial number is to stop fraudulent warranty claims.

30 years later, its like some badge of honor that the car still has the same tired old engine.