I visited an old friend today. He is a very good corvette restorer. He works with mid-years. He had a project he bought is pieces, and he had it looking pretty good. Although the car was mostly original, the motor was a correct block, but wrong numbers (does that make sense?) . In the same breath as "it's a numbers matching car", he told me how he decked and re-stamped the block to make it numbers matching. So what is the point? I think we need to start working with new terminology, as the current terms don't mean jack. I think "original engine" would be less misleading. I am sure that could be falsified, but liars will always lie. Maybe at least then people who are buying would not think they are getting an original motor when numbers matching is used to sell the car.
What is the point of verification if the verification process can be 'adjusted ' to meet the needs of the seller?

 

so he got a correct date coded block and restamped it? i hope he doesn't try to sell as a numbers matching(as we know it to mean)

we're going to have to start saying "original to the car" or something like that

 

I am facing this same issue. I have a 70 LT1 vert and the block is not numbers matching. The top end is right but not the block.

Well for an extra $250 they will stamp my new date correct block with the proper numbers. I would then have a matching number - but NOT original motor - 70 LT1 vert.

I do not plan on selling the car and if I ever did I would be very upfront about whatever I do. It just seems weird to me that it makes as much difference as it does when it has nothing to do with the performance or condition of the car. I would think having the right date codes would be enough with a little extra for and original block.

 

i think that we are being naive assuming that this isn't happening all the time i would venture to guess that many forum members that bought cars as "original engine" or "numbers matching" have a restamp between the fenders. there are pros out there doing broaching and stamping for high fee. even the paperwork is being faked. the only true way to know is if you can trace the ownership pedigree and those cars should get the true premium. my 0.02.

 

The fee isn't really that high - $250 is what I was quoted. If anything it is cheap when you consider how much money you have in a resto and what value it adds to the car.

I do have an original LT1 with Protecto Plate and only 3 previous owners. I also know that the first owner blew the block out and it has been replaced. As I said my thinking about it has nothing to do with a resale it just seems like an inexpensive thing to do as I finish the car.

I agree completly on knowing the previous owners as I would never sell a restamp as original but how many people down the line before the "numbers matching" becomes an "original motor".

So - do I pay the $250? I paid extra to find a correct dated carb and other parts - is this also misleading? While selling something and lying about it is clearly wrong what if the car is just for your own enjoyment? Why is a block different then the parts that bolt to it?

 

I have always looked at this as three options:

1. Original engine - the engine that came in the car from the factory. Not necessarly a matching number engine as could have been decked. But would have correct casting #s.

2. Matching numbers enigne - may or may not be an original engine. The casting #s are correct but the stamp pad numbers could be a restamp.

3. Not Original Motor - any other engine that is not the one that came in the car from the factory.

So, what is best? Combo of #1 and #2, the original engine that has the original stampings. A restamp is a "matching #'s" car as the numbers do match, as long and no claim is made that the engine is the original engine (the same as replacing any other part with a correct but not original part). The others are street rods/DD/fun cars.

 

A good history on the car is the most important thing- but I agree, why get any dated part? If it is not original, you can build a fraud. But "numbers matching" is the first thing out of everyone's mouth when they describe a car. I think we have all been brainwashed by a secret government agency that profits on dated parts and overvalued numbers matching cars!

 

Just exactly what would be the point in re-stamping a block to make it numbers matching unless the intent is to artificially increase the value of the car and defraud a potential buyer? Otherwise what difference would it make? Not any different than making your own twenty dollars bills as far as I am concerned.

 

other than gloating to people that its all numbers matching original, fraud is the only other reason if it isnt matching and you know it. why fake it other than monitary profit!
that is exactly why i would never pay the cash of a (numbers) car when i could spend the extra cash in cosmetic or suspention or drivetrain upgrades!! there is so much fake crap and falseified cars out there it is unreal!! there are more 70 ls6 chevelles and 69 Z/28`s on the streets today than the factory ever made!!

 

Just to add to the numbers matching topic, this is what happened to me:
I have an original motor, numbers matching engine. I blew the motor and sent it out to have it rebuilt. The shop decked the block and shaved my numbers off. ( Long story ) I took pictures of the numbers in the car and out of the car. I took pictures of the numbers the day before they decked the block. Numbers are gone. ( This is not an NCRS vette ) So they order the stamps and restamp the block. It looks good. There's no broach mark etc. He going to write me up a letter explaining waht happened. So, I know this is an original motor that came in this vette, with the matching numbers. Now having the shop restamp the numbers that came off it originally to me does not make this a fake. I'm only putting back what was originally there. And if I were to sell it one day, I would be confident in letting the person know that this is indeed an original motor, numbers matching vette.
You can say that it's a fake now, if that how you view it. I don't. Just a bad situation that i'm trying to correct. My 2 cents
Tony

 

The problem is, people intentionally fuzzy up the term "numbers matching" to mean some vague term they want it to mean.

The fact is, numbers matching means the pad VIN derivative matches the VIN on the car. Period. It doesnt mean its original. It might mean its original, or it might be a restamp.

If its a pre-60 car, it cant be numbers matching because theres no numbers to match. Fuzzying up terms by acting like a possibly correct date coded motor "matches" is a lie. It doesnt "match" anything.

Sellers will say numbers matching for any vague reason they can to sell a car.

Unfortunately NCRS takes so few points off for the VIN derivative, the numbers could be missing altogether and it could still Top Flight. And, if the numbers dont look bad, they likely wont lose any points. Im sure most everyone has heard about some very high profile cars that have been restamped.

I can see some restamps... when the original block has been decked (pretty common.) However I would expect someone who restamps to say so, not hide it. I would also think a big dollar car with a restamp would be a much bigger issue than a 300/250 hp restamp.

Cliff Notes: "numbers matching"= engine pad matches the body/chassis VIN. "correct block" = block PN correct, date codes appropriate. "original" = the actual block the car was born with, and can be proven with documents or lineage.

 

Now you know why some high dollar sellers advertise as "Numbers matching, appears to be the real deal"

Lots of $$ to be made in numbers matching L-88's even though there are more of them now than the General ever made.

I need to start looking for an early '68 327 block

 

I would argue that most people with this opinion also happen to own cars without matching numbers.

Its fine to spend your money as you see fit, but the truth of the matter is that $25000 spent on a numbers matching car will most likely be a safer investment than $25000 on a car with wrong numbers and lots of items from the speed shop, despite the arguments from the hot rod crowd.

 

If you kept all the proof that it is the original engine then it is not a fake. No fraud there, just an unfortunate event. It might devalue your car somewhat to a collector even with the proper documentation though. I think there are some other posts on this forum and others where the same thing has happened, it's not uncommon. I can't see anything wrong with putting back what was once there. Its putting something there that was not there to begin with thats the problem.

 

I feel that restamping the block with numbers that match the vin is fraud. Even if you disclose it on resale that fact will be soon lost to an unscrupulus seller sometime in the future. The result will be that some unsuspecting buyer will purchase the car thinking it has the original engine. Somewhere along the line someone will be left holding the bag.

A restamp can be detected by an experienced vette collector. Restamping the block only serves the purpose to hide the original story and increase the value of the car. If the block was decked and the original numbers were removed in error then you should document that and disclose it upon resale. This will effect the value but not as much as a restamp that has been discovered.

It is posible that restamping might be criminal if it effects the value of the car to an unsuspecting buyer. Unfortunately it is not an uncommon practice in this hobby. As a result there are probably a lot more big block Corvettes today than GM ever manufactured. No matter what anyone says it is all about the $$$$. Don't be a party to this fraudulent practice.

 

From reading these responces it appears there are several different levels of this - or maybe just several different opinions.

1. Making a car something it never was - I think 75% of the cars I saw at Carslile this year were number matching big blocks. Wrong and probably illigeal.

2. Restamping a motor you are having rebuilt with the same numbers that were on it before - hard for me to see what is wrong with this one.

3. Restamping a replacement block to match what the car originaly was - this is a gray area for me (not for some I know). If the intent is to lie about it and profit from a sale then it is the same as #1 in my book.

My gray area is when the car is just for your own pleasure. I bought the "right" carb and I see many posts on getting the right nubered parts that bolt to the engine or the correct top and window glass. What makes wanting the right numbered block different? I am not stating my position as I said it seems like a gray area different then #1-2. I do agree with the person who said somewhere down the line it will turn into a lie and I don't think it will take many new owners. On the other hand it sems silly to care about the right dates on the window, heads, carb etc and then leave the block wrong.

For what it is worth I am not trying to justify a position - I did not date code all the other parts and will be keeping my car as a non numbers matching that is worth less then all original as it should be.

 

Heard a story, dont know if true and dont have any references, about a guy that bought a "numbers matching" car only to find out that it was a restamp. So he took the seller to court. Court ruled in favor of the seller as the numbers did match and the seller never made any representation that the motor was the original, only that the numbers matched.

True? Who knows? But it is something to keep in mind. Numbers matching only means that the numbers match, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Exactly. Anyone that does this is doing so to rip off someone down the line. It is meaningful to have the correct original components to a car, especially the engine block, trans, rear end. It is one of the indicators of a well cared for automobile.

 

gccch - I know this sounds like I am arguing your point but I am curious - does that mean all the people I see at Carslile and other shows that are looking for the right date and numbered coded parts are only doing it to rip someone off? Or is it only if the person is doing it on the big parts? In no way do I think the guy who is re-stamping his original block with the same numbers that were always on it trying to rip anyone off.

I still have the first Vet I bought over 20 years ago and will be giving the car to my son. When I buy the right part for this 35+ year old car it just makes sence to me to buy one that was made to either look the same or be the same as the other parts on the car - no intent to rip ANYONE off. Just enjoying the hobby.

 

It's called fraud - plain and simple.