Numbers Match- SO WHAT!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 15
From: Confusion
I am facing this same issue. I have a 70 LT1 vert and the block is not numbers matching. The top end is right but not the block.
Well for an extra $250 they will stamp my new date correct block with the proper numbers. I would then have a matching number - but NOT original motor - 70 LT1 vert.
I do not plan on selling the car and if I ever did I would be very upfront about whatever I do. It just seems weird to me that it makes as much difference as it does when it has nothing to do with the performance or condition of the car. I would think having the right date codes would be enough with a little extra for and original block.
Well for an extra $250 they will stamp my new date correct block with the proper numbers. I would then have a matching number - but NOT original motor - 70 LT1 vert.
I do not plan on selling the car and if I ever did I would be very upfront about whatever I do. It just seems weird to me that it makes as much difference as it does when it has nothing to do with the performance or condition of the car. I would think having the right date codes would be enough with a little extra for and original block.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,196
Likes: 47
From: Scarborough Maine Fredericksburg VA
I don't disagree that the only thing that made an LT1 what it is, was the engine and I have no intention of selling my car. I do think the original paper work and the top end do add value but I certainly respect others do not. I was trying to make this a broader question and I should not have put any of my car info in it - just wanted full disclousure.
What I was asking was more when does it become wrong to use original numbered parts. Is it only the block or all parts? Comments like "it is fraud" or "anyone" are very broad. I agree 1000% that someone changes a number making a car something it never was and doesn't disclose this is fraud and should be illigeal if they try and sell it for something it isn't.
I bought a "big block El Comino SS". It is a clone. I knew that when I bought it and will be very upfront when I sell it. I do not think the guy who built it did anything fradulant.
My question was what about other parts. If you break your glass and put in a proper date code is this fraud? Or what about the poor guy who had the numbers decked off an original motor? When I bought the proper carb for my car is that fraud?
I truely appreciate other view points that is why I asked. As I have said there are some fringe areas that are just gray to me.
What I was asking was more when does it become wrong to use original numbered parts. Is it only the block or all parts? Comments like "it is fraud" or "anyone" are very broad. I agree 1000% that someone changes a number making a car something it never was and doesn't disclose this is fraud and should be illigeal if they try and sell it for something it isn't.
I bought a "big block El Comino SS". It is a clone. I knew that when I bought it and will be very upfront when I sell it. I do not think the guy who built it did anything fradulant.
My question was what about other parts. If you break your glass and put in a proper date code is this fraud? Or what about the poor guy who had the numbers decked off an original motor? When I bought the proper carb for my car is that fraud?
I truely appreciate other view points that is why I asked. As I have said there are some fringe areas that are just gray to me.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 872
Likes: 3
From: Cortlandt Manor New York
From reading these responces it appears there are several different levels of this - or maybe just several different opinions. 
1. Making a car something it never was - I think 75% of the cars I saw at Carslile this year were number matching big blocks. Wrong and probably illigeal.
2. Restamping a motor you are having rebuilt with the same numbers that were on it before - hard for me to see what is wrong with this one.
3. Restamping a replacement block to match what the car originaly was - this is a gray area for me (not for some I know). If the intent is to lie about it and profit from a sale then it is the same as #1 in my book.
My gray area is when the car is just for your own pleasure. I bought the "right" carb and I see many posts on getting the right nubered parts that bolt to the engine or the correct top and window glass. What makes wanting the right numbered block different? I am not stating my position as I said it seems like a gray area different then #1-2. I do agree with the person who said somewhere down the line it will turn into a lie and I don't think it will take many new owners. On the other hand it sems silly to care about the right dates on the window, heads, carb etc and then leave the block wrong.
For what it is worth I am not trying to justify a position - I did not date code all the other parts and will be keeping my car as a non numbers matching that is worth less then all original as it should be.
1. Making a car something it never was - I think 75% of the cars I saw at Carslile this year were number matching big blocks. Wrong and probably illigeal.
2. Restamping a motor you are having rebuilt with the same numbers that were on it before - hard for me to see what is wrong with this one.
3. Restamping a replacement block to match what the car originaly was - this is a gray area for me (not for some I know). If the intent is to lie about it and profit from a sale then it is the same as #1 in my book.
My gray area is when the car is just for your own pleasure. I bought the "right" carb and I see many posts on getting the right nubered parts that bolt to the engine or the correct top and window glass. What makes wanting the right numbered block different? I am not stating my position as I said it seems like a gray area different then #1-2. I do agree with the person who said somewhere down the line it will turn into a lie and I don't think it will take many new owners. On the other hand it sems silly to care about the right dates on the window, heads, carb etc and then leave the block wrong.
For what it is worth I am not trying to justify a position - I did not date code all the other parts and will be keeping my car as a non numbers matching that is worth less then all original as it should be.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 15,147
Likes: 477
From: NM
] tom...
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 157
From: Miami, FL
gccch - I know this sounds like I am arguing your point but I am curious - does that mean all the people I see at Carslile and other shows that are looking for the right date and numbered coded parts are only doing it to rip someone off? Or is it only if the person is doing it on the big parts? In no way do I think the guy who is re-stamping his original block with the same numbers that were always on it trying to rip anyone off.
I still have the first Vet I bought over 20 years ago and will be giving the car to my son. When I buy the right part for this 35+ year old car it just makes sence to me to buy one that was made to either look the same or be the same as the other parts on the car - no intent to rip ANYONE off. Just enjoying the hobby.
I still have the first Vet I bought over 20 years ago and will be giving the car to my son. When I buy the right part for this 35+ year old car it just makes sence to me to buy one that was made to either look the same or be the same as the other parts on the car - no intent to rip ANYONE off. Just enjoying the hobby.
In my search, I was seriously considering a LT1 that was not numbers matching, but did have the LT1 engine from the same model year in it. It turned out to be a Camaro Z28 engine, which again is the same except for the numbers on the pad (and the ignition set-up). I appreciated the fact that the car had the correct engine configuration of the correct vintage. I would not have considered it at all and it would be less valuable in my eyes if that car had a restamped numbers matching engine. To me that is simply rewriting the history of the car which should not be done. Period.
AS to restamping the original numbers... while it is a shade more gray, it does not sit well with me. Show the numbers using acid etching or chalk it up to unfortunate cirumstances (like a collision). You wouldn't want someone covering up one of those either.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 204
From: Lincoln CA
In the case of restamping the original engine if the numbers have been destroyed by decking, nobody is getting screwed. The owner/seller is simply maintaining the value of his car as it still exists. Why should he take a beating on value from the simple act of proper maintenance? The buyer is getting exactly what he expects, an original engine car. No harm, no foul.
In any other instance, it's fraud or, at the very least, misleading. If you restamp an engine to foist the car off as an original, you're unscrupulous and guilty of stealing people's money. If you restamp a non-original engine to match the car's VIN and you aren't doing it for any reason beyond "correctness", then you are contributing to a falsification of the facts. Lets say you sell that car and tell the honest truth that it is a restamped engine of the same type as the original, and properly dated. Then that owner passes the car to an heir. The heir sells the car as a numbers matching car, because it is. This new owner may later sell the car as an original engine car because, to the best of his knowledge, the numbers match and the dates are right. Now the car has become a fraud. An unidentified fake. Nobody's fault, but it wouldn't have happened if the non-original engine hadn't been restamped. This is just a wrong practice in any but the first instance.
In any other instance, it's fraud or, at the very least, misleading. If you restamp an engine to foist the car off as an original, you're unscrupulous and guilty of stealing people's money. If you restamp a non-original engine to match the car's VIN and you aren't doing it for any reason beyond "correctness", then you are contributing to a falsification of the facts. Lets say you sell that car and tell the honest truth that it is a restamped engine of the same type as the original, and properly dated. Then that owner passes the car to an heir. The heir sells the car as a numbers matching car, because it is. This new owner may later sell the car as an original engine car because, to the best of his knowledge, the numbers match and the dates are right. Now the car has become a fraud. An unidentified fake. Nobody's fault, but it wouldn't have happened if the non-original engine hadn't been restamped. This is just a wrong practice in any but the first instance.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,712
Likes: 0
From: Tampa FL
In the case of restamping the original engine if the numbers have been destroyed by decking, nobody is getting screwed. The owner/seller is simply maintaining the value of his car as it still exists. Why should he take a beating on value from the simple act of proper maintenance? The buyer is getting exactly what he expects, an original engine car. No harm, no foul.
In any other instance, it's fraud or, at the very least, misleading. If you restamp an engine to foist the car off as an original, you're unscrupulous and guilty of stealing people's money.
In any other instance, it's fraud or, at the very least, misleading. If you restamp an engine to foist the car off as an original, you're unscrupulous and guilty of stealing people's money.
Yes, technically it's not the original motor anymore ... but the only reason it's not the original motor is because the original motor was faulty due to factory defect, and GM made the problem right by giving you a new motor. So in that situation why shouldn't you be able to restamp it with the same number as the original motor?
I know some people disagree with me on this, but I think it's OK in this situation. The difference is that in today's mindset we regard these cars as classics so we see it differently, but you have to think in those terms. Apply this situation to a new Z06 for example, and you hang on to that car for 40 years ... do you really want some jackass giving you crap because it's not a numbers matching motor, only because 3 weeks into ownership the motor blew and the dealer replaced it with another brand new motor direct from the factory and you never had a problem since?
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,118
From: Crossville TN
Anyone who stamps in the original engine number on any "other" engine/block is lying....period. There may not be any intention to defraud a buyer; but they certainly are trying to impress someone else or get 'points' in a car show for having a numbers-matching vehicle. As long as someone stamps in some other letter or number to identify that the engine is not "factory original", I would have no problem with it. But if you are trying to make a non-original block/engine appear to be the original...you're cheating.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,262
Likes: 283
From: I'd like to propose a toast... to internal combustion and wind in the face.
This entire argument really has no resolution. Really, what is expected to be gained?
Why do some people still insist they have all the answers as to which parts can be restored/replaced and which parts can't? Why can't people just take a car at face value and accept it or dismiss it?
Some people want to assert that anyone who is re-stamping engine blocks or transmission cases is doing so because of greed. I'm wondering if anyone is willing to take less than market value for their car (I'm not)? Surely there's someone on this board, in the name of "good-will", who is willing to sell their car that they've had since 1985 at their purchase price. No takers? Everybody feels as though they deserve whatever selling price the next guy is getting. Just like everything else, it's all about money. Money and greed, they're kinda of inseperable.
Why do some people still insist they have all the answers as to which parts can be restored/replaced and which parts can't? Why can't people just take a car at face value and accept it or dismiss it?
Some people want to assert that anyone who is re-stamping engine blocks or transmission cases is doing so because of greed. I'm wondering if anyone is willing to take less than market value for their car (I'm not)? Surely there's someone on this board, in the name of "good-will", who is willing to sell their car that they've had since 1985 at their purchase price. No takers? Everybody feels as though they deserve whatever selling price the next guy is getting. Just like everything else, it's all about money. Money and greed, they're kinda of inseperable.
Last edited by mudbone64; Dec 19, 2007 at 01:20 PM. Reason: spelling
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 157
From: Miami, FL
In the case of restamping the original engine if the numbers have been destroyed by decking, nobody is getting screwed. The owner/seller is simply maintaining the value of his car as it still exists. Why should he take a beating on value from the simple act of proper maintenance? The buyer is getting exactly what he expects, an original engine car. No harm, no foul.
In any other instance, it's fraud or, at the very least, misleading. If you restamp an engine to foist the car off as an original, you're unscrupulous and guilty of stealing people's money. If you restamp a non-original engine to match the car's VIN and you aren't doing it for any reason beyond "correctness", then you are contributing to a falsification of the facts. Lets say you sell that car and tell the honest truth that it is a restamped engine of the same type as the original, and properly dated. Then that owner passes the car to an heir. The heir sells the car as a numbers matching car, because it is. This new owner may later sell the car as an original engine car because, to the best of his knowledge, the numbers match and the dates are right. Now the car has become a fraud. An unidentified fake. Nobody's fault, but it wouldn't have happened if the non-original engine hadn't been restamped. This is just a wrong practice in any but the first instance.
In any other instance, it's fraud or, at the very least, misleading. If you restamp an engine to foist the car off as an original, you're unscrupulous and guilty of stealing people's money. If you restamp a non-original engine to match the car's VIN and you aren't doing it for any reason beyond "correctness", then you are contributing to a falsification of the facts. Lets say you sell that car and tell the honest truth that it is a restamped engine of the same type as the original, and properly dated. Then that owner passes the car to an heir. The heir sells the car as a numbers matching car, because it is. This new owner may later sell the car as an original engine car because, to the best of his knowledge, the numbers match and the dates are right. Now the car has become a fraud. An unidentified fake. Nobody's fault, but it wouldn't have happened if the non-original engine hadn't been restamped. This is just a wrong practice in any but the first instance.
I say, if you can prove it was the original engine such that it's ok to re-stamp it, then you can equally prove it is indeed the original engine and it does not need to be re-stamped. So don't bother re-stamping it, just show me it is the original, however you can. Otherwise suck it up and take what life handed you. It's just wrong in my eyes.
The acceptance of re-stamping at any level hurts any Corvette owner. It makes it very difficult to buy with confidence. Therefore, that much harder to sell your car when the time comes. In an ideal world, where everyone was open about the history of their car, wouldn't it be more inviting a hobby?
Disclaimer: I am new to the Corvette world, but have had collector cars for as long as I've had a car. This numbers matching thing is part of what makes the Corvette world interesting and challenging.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,231
Likes: 7
From: Fort Pierce Florida
Wow, I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time caring about all this. If the car appears original and the block is correct with the correct "numbers" then who cares? It's not like there aren't other parts of the car that have been replaced that are period correct as well. What's the difference between this and buying a new old stock t-top bar and replacing the block? Neither came on the car originally and both work great. I just don't understand it...
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,712
Likes: 0
From: Tampa FL
Wow, I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time caring about all this. If the car appears original and the block is correct with the correct "numbers" then who cares? It's not like there aren't other parts of the car that have been replaced that are period correct as well. What's the difference between this and buying a new old stock t-top bar and replacing the block? Neither came on the car originally and both work great. I just don't understand it...
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,262
Likes: 283
From: I'd like to propose a toast... to internal combustion and wind in the face.
The problem with your scenario is that it opens the whole thing up for anyone to say "I re-stamped the original engine because the numbers were decked off". So now that's the defacto answer for all re-stamps.
I say, if you can prove it was the original engine such that it's ok to re-stamp it, then you can equally prove it is indeed the original engine and it does not need to be re-stamped.
I say, if you can prove it was the original engine such that it's ok to re-stamp it, then you can equally prove it is indeed the original engine and it does not need to be re-stamped.
In one sentence you say the hobby would be "more inviting" if we all spilled the beans and in another line you say the "numbers matching thing" makes the Corvette world interesting and challenging. So which is it?
Racer
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 499
Likes: 1
From: Winnipeg Manitoba
What's the difference between a genuine Rolex and a Rolex that has had the crystal replaced?
Lets say the new part was NOS direct from Rolex.
Is it now worth less?
If you were selling a old Rolex, would you cut your price in half because you changed the crystal 10 years ago?
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 37,637
Likes: 3,118
From: Crossville TN
Not the crystal...but it wouldn't be the same watch with a new mechanism. The crystal would be like the windshield...wear and replacement over long periods of time is expected. Replacing the mechanism [similar to an engine in a car] changes the watch and changes its value. Let's get real, here. No one can sway me into believing that someone who puts the "correct" stamp number on an "incorrect" block is not trying to fake the real thing. Whether it is for the appearance of authenticity or whether it is for a fraudulant sale. The difference is only in the degree of dishonesty.
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 157
From: Miami, FL
[/QUOTE]In one sentence you say the hobby would be "more inviting" if we all spilled the beans and in another line you say the "numbers matching thing" makes the Corvette world interesting and challenging. So which is it?[/QUOTE]
What I'm saying is to me it made it more challenging and interesting, but I also felt at times like giving up on the whole idea of jumping in because I became very skeptical of the sellers I encountered. Seems to me some people might get turned off by the risk of paying a premium for numbers and maybe not getting what they paid for. So I guess it's both. All I'm giving is my opinion, take it for what it's worth....
What I'm saying is to me it made it more challenging and interesting, but I also felt at times like giving up on the whole idea of jumping in because I became very skeptical of the sellers I encountered. Seems to me some people might get turned off by the risk of paying a premium for numbers and maybe not getting what they paid for. So I guess it's both. All I'm giving is my opinion, take it for what it's worth....
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,196
Likes: 47
From: Scarborough Maine Fredericksburg VA
Just my thought but the key components that contain the VIN in their stamping are the engine block, the transmission, and the frame. Only three parts. To me, and maybe me only, these are the only ones that matter when discussing "matching numbers". All of the other parts are number and date code correct, but there is nothing to identify them to any specific car. So if you replace the glass with number and date coded correct parts, who cares. No problem there. But if the VIN numbered parts are replaced then they are not original (even if restamped) to that specific car for which they were VIN stamped at the factory. [I feel like I am talking in a circle ]
The reason I threw out some senerios is I wasn't really clear on the subject in my own head. Reading what Tom wrote makes sence to me. There are really three parts I would care about as he stated. Also, the clone I bought does NOT have a restamp which helps in identifing it for what it is - a real nice car with a period correct but not original engine. Besides I could use the $250 for something that will bring me more joy than having to explain it all the time and thats just what I would end up doing. Thanks for all the input!
The reason I threw out some senerios is I wasn't really clear on the subject in my own head. Reading what Tom wrote makes sence to me. There are really three parts I would care about as he stated. Also, the clone I bought does NOT have a restamp which helps in identifing it for what it is - a real nice car with a period correct but not original engine. Besides I could use the $250 for something that will bring me more joy than having to explain it all the time and thats just what I would end up doing. Thanks for all the input!
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
If the car is for your own pleasure why go thru the expense of having it restamped? You know it is the original engine and you know what the story is. When the car is no longer for your pleasure and you sell it how long do you think that the"story" will prevail? If you do not intend to profit from restamping the block do you think future buyers will have the same modivation? In my opinion restamping the block will only be viewed as fraud when it is discovered. Do you want to be a party to that?
i do not want to have that bad karma hanging around.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,262
Likes: 283
From: I'd like to propose a toast... to internal combustion and wind in the face.
What I'm saying is to me it made it more challenging and interesting, but I also felt at times like giving up on the whole idea of jumping in because I became very skeptical of the sellers I encountered. Seems to me some people might get turned off by the risk of paying a premium for numbers and maybe not getting what they paid for. So I guess it's both. All I'm giving is my opinion, take it for what it's worth....