The same reason you want to repaint,new interior,to make it look like it did form new. I give up. Why repaint new interior.Are you trying to do the same thing. You people live in your own world wondering why your car is not worth the same. Thats the bottom line. At least admit it. You are pissed because a NCRS restored motor car is worth more than yours. If you cant afford to play don't bitch

 

So let me see if I got this right......

An abused and crashed car merged together with parts from 6 others is a numbers matching car because you manage to use 3-4 specific parts from only one of the 6 donor cars? (Lets say heads, manifold, carb, quarter panels, doors, bumpers, rear end and interior all came from other cars)

This FrankenCar is somehow worth more than my nice unmolested-no accident car because someone put in a better engine at one time?

Ya, you go ahead and buy a numbers matching wreck.
Keep telling yourself its worth more.

I guess I'd rather determine value based on the condition of the whole car rather than if a couple numbers match.


(Pouring gasoline on the flames.... )

 

 

I had a 1970 LS6 block E 7 70. It had 1969 427 435 HP internals. The block had broach marks but no stamp at all. Must have been bought as a bare block in 1970. I rebuilt it and found a correct set of heads with the same day casting date E 7 70. Took 8 months but found a NOS carb, correct number water pump, Correct starter, LS6 distributor, Correct rods, crank, Correct manufacturer and spec pistons .030 over, correct oil pan, Crane factory blueprint cam, correct bolt head marking bolts were bought from Corvette Central. This engine had all components within 45 days when done. I was originally going to put the most powerfull rated Big block Chevy ever made in my 63. Ended up selling it on E-bay for over $12,000. The buyer was putting it in his 1970 LS-6 vert. June build date, nice original car, incorrect motor second owner. I will bet he stamps the correct numbers on this factory broach mark block. Would you? Is this fraud or as correct of a restoration as possible? What if you had a frame, engine and title but the rest of the car was pieced together from a variety of other cars and parts. It would be truly numbers matching. Should it be worth more? Does it warrant the comment that it is truly a correct, numbers matching, original motor car and is worth 5 or 10 times the $ in the case of an LS-6 vert? My point is everything else can be changed, rebuilt or replaced and it is totally ethical in some peoples eyes that have posted here to ask the big bucks and state it is "original" but the guy that bought my LS-6 would be considered a lowlife thief if he makes the same claim even though his car has original nice body panels and everything else is correct. I am not judging either scenerio, just putting this out there.

 

If OT, my apologies.

We struggle with some of the same questions in ex-military aircraft ("Warbird") conservation and restoration. Is it OK to heavily modify a P-51 Mustang to go racing at Reno? What about modern radios? Should the landing gear have canvas covers, even though they'll be destroyed after a few dozen cycles? Should it just be parked in a museum and not even flown?

I think there's some wisdom we can pull from the Smithsonian here, as they address this by breaking down aircraft into 3 catagories:

Catagory I: Historically significant by participation in a historic event; i.e. the Owens Corning Corvettes, etc.

Catagory II: Technically significant due to a particular feature; i.e. ZL-1's, L-88's, LT-1's etc.

Catagory III: Not significant in their own right, but represent a type of historically significant; i.e. my L-46/M-21 convertible

It seems to me that if you own a Catagory I car you purchase a responsibility with that car to conserve, restore and maintain the car in a manner consistent with it's heritage. If you don't want to do that, then you should buy something else

For Catagory II, you still have some duty of care to maintain the originality.

For Catagory III, it's up to the owners - as long as there are examples out there that are "correct", then you have no responsibility to preserve the history of the car.

If you really don't want the responsibility of a numbers-matching car, don't buy one

As for all the NCRS stuff, I'll step neatly to the side

 

Would I? No

Is it fraud or correct resto? Both - fraud if it is presented as the motor it left the factory with, correct resto if it is presented as such. It won't always be, unfortunately, so I think it is wrong.

It is not "original motor". That term should be used only when the original motor is in the car. You could call it "correct motor" "reproduction of original" or similar term, but it is a lie to call it "original motor".

How about he creates title and POP documents showing he is the original owner? Does that make it so? Is it ok do do that?

This is an effort to re-write the history of the vehicle.

I can see the point of those who put this in the same category as re-paint or re-upholstery, but those things are commonly changed for appearance. The motor is not an appearance item. To me it just feels dirty.

 

Well I'm going to see if I can put this numbers matching silliness to some good use.

The engine in my car is out of a 69 Corvette:
Engine Code : V1010HZ
Engine Serial Number 19S732768

If you want it to complete your numbers matching car, it yours.
I'll trade it for a ZZ4 350 and a Keisler 5 speed.

We'll both be very happy!

 

But on the flip side the basketcase LS-6 vert with all the original documentation and original #s matching motor, totally restored, will bring 5 to 10 times what the nice original car with this motor added, totally restored with all original documentation will bring with the second car actually being more correct, more original, and a better representation of "as it left the factory" than the restored basketcase. This is the reason you are seeing this widespead in the restoration industry. The line that is being drawn here is that the second car is a fraud, and the restorer a thief and the first car is as represented, has a hugely greater value and the restorer is a hero for saving a piece of history. This doesn't seem right either. I seen a "rebodied" Mopar on BJ last year bring top dollar.

 

What are you doing on this forum? You make too much sense
KEN

 

Well the National Corvette Restorers Society's veiw is this:

"Defintions of Counterfeit vs. Restoration"

"NCRS does not consider the restoration or replacement of components as counterfeit as long as the intent is to restore the car to it's original state as it left the factory. to make this perfectly clear, read the following defintions from Webster's Dictionary and the accompanying examples.

RESTORE: " To renew; to put back to exisitance or bring a former or original state"
For instance, the following examples represent restorations and are NOT considered counterfeiting:

Repainting an original black Corvette with black lacquer paint.

Installing accurately reproduced black vinyl seat covers in a car that left the factory with a standard black interior.

Stamping a 435 HP block to conform to the date/serial number of the original 435 HP Corvette in which it was to be installed.

COUNTERFEIT "To make an imitation of something else with the intent to deceive or fraud"

Repainting an original blue car red, and changing the trim tag to make red to appear to be the original color.

Installing a red interior on a car that left the factory with a blue interior and changing the trim tag to make red appear to be the original color interior.

Replacing the engine of an original small block with a big block and stamping numbers on it to make it appear to be an original big block engine.

Replacing a carburetor on an engine with a fuel injection unit and stamping the numbers and suffix code on the block to make it appear to be original"

So the NCRS considers restamping, "restoration" just like painting or installing new seat covers.

 

That's what I have been trying to say all along......at least NCRS see's it the same way I do

 

Just one question, you don't say what happened to the original engine from the '70 vert. If it was pulled because it needed a major overhaul and it was easier to put one in that was already done then yes, I'd say it's fraud. No matter what it is wrong to claim that it is the original engine because it is not. And by the way, if he stamps the replacement with the originals numbers now there are two with the same numbers. Not a good situation for anyone considering purchasing that vehicle.

It's disconcerting to think that we will have to start asking if a numbers matching engine is also the the same one that was installed at the factory. This sounds like the type of thing only a lawyer would come up with. A technicality that gets a criminal off the hook because no one asked.

Before you know it we will need laws requiring full disclosure about the circumstances around any engine replacement and what the disposition of the original engine was. I hate to see any more government interference in our hobby than there already is. Surely we can take care of this on our own.

 

Ask the BMV of any state what THEY think of re-stamping a VIN in a "blank" block. NCRS is a "hobby" body...not a legal one. NCRS may approve of it for their shows; I bet that even they would say it is not ethical/legal to sell it that way.

 

I am not a buyer for one of these type of cars anyway. I don't think it is ethical to restamp something and try to pass the car off as something it is not either. As stated before you can tell the next buyer but after it changes hands a couple times it is all of a sudden "original". When you buy a high end, rare, totally correctly restored car a lot of times you have no idea what condition it used to be in.

 

Yeah, look at the condition that "Last Sting Ray" started out in! I have to wonder how much Pro Team didn't put in the video about that restoration.

cc

 

Obviously you disagree with that position. If you consider restamping as counterfeiting, why would you NOT consider swapping the frame, substituting replacement body panels, complete repainting, etc etc. also as counterfeiting?

In all of these cases, the original pieces/parts/finishes are long gone and different ones have been substituted. The car is no longer original, it is restored.

Unless you want to make stamp pads a 'holy grail' you would have to consider any restoration work (large and small) as counterfeiting. I watched a program on PBS the other night about the restoration of the ceiling in the Sistine Chapel. Maybe I should call the Pope and tell him it's now a counterfeit?

Is your criteria it's OK to repaint, swap frames and body panels because the restoration work is probably obvious whereas restamping is not?

What would you do at time of sale with this car? If you divulge that it's a different frame, new body panels, new paint and a restamped motor where is the counterfeit?

If you were to forget to divulge one of the above items (let's say the frame) why is that NOT counterfeit?

 

Why don't we ask the big corvette supply houses shut down and we just leave our cars alone? Never touch them anymore?

You made a point about frame swapping......what about duplicating the chalk marks that the assembly line workers used to determine how many shims that body mount got? What about re-applying repro stickers in the engine compartment? Does that consitiute as counterfeiting too?

What about a restored 1969 corvette that has a hood on it from a wrecked 1970.......is that counterfeiting?

 

You are argueing with the wrong guy. It is not a counterfeit, it is restored. The point is at sale time or 2 or 3 buyers down the line of ownership that motor will no longer be admitted to as being a restamp. A typical ad might say "1970 Chevelle LS6 Vert. #1 car, Frame off restoration, all numbers matching. 2nd owner, all documentation $400,000" Are they lying? Another scenerio of an ad for the same car is "1970 Chevelle LS6 Vert. #1 car, Frame off restoration, 2nd owner, all documentation NOM" $80,000. Once it has a complete restoration it is no longer original. Every piece of the car has been "restored" In the case of the LS6 above. That is a lot of difference in price and there are a lot of you that would not take the high road and say "The block is not the original, it is restamped" if it is going to cost you $320,000. If you do the next guy might not.

 

That's actually worse than counterfeiting-if that's possible. There is no way that a hood from a 70 could have been installed on a 69 as it didn't 'exist' at the time.

An original engine from a '69 that gets restamped as a '69 would have to be considered as a 'lesser evil' as it at least existed in '69.

If at the time of sale the owner states that it's a hood from a '70 and a replacement motor from another '69, where's the counterfeit?

To me it's not what you've done to the car, it's what you state to another party. To lie about the paint is just as wrong as lying about the stamp pad.

 

Depends on the sellers definition and the buyers understanding of the ubiquitous terms 'all numbers matching' and 'all documentation'. If the seller intends to deceive by not disclosing what he knows, then yes he's lying. I agree that 2 or 3 sales down the line, it might be assumed that the stamp pad (or any other feature of the car) is original. That's a problem in any hobby.

There is concern in the NCRS that older restorations might be presented for Bowtie judging as enough time and weathering has occurred to make it difficult to determine what's original and what's restored.