Ncrs
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 436
Likes: 59
From: Alpine, New Jersey
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 436
Likes: 59
From: Alpine, New Jersey
Even more words, as I had to correct the typos!
I leave it to other members here to decide whether the question, of why your father, an experienced NCRS judge, entered a car that he did not own, in a judging event. I have not held myself out to be an NCRS expert.
I also leave it up to the members here whether asking why he did that was an “attack.” This is a forum for discussion. I found your initial post to be confusing, and asked for clarification.
I leave it to other members here to decide whether the question, of why your father, an experienced NCRS judge, entered a car that he did not own, in a judging event. I have not held myself out to be an NCRS expert.
I also leave it up to the members here whether asking why he did that was an “attack.” This is a forum for discussion. I found your initial post to be confusing, and asked for clarification.
attack? Explain. Open discussion. Expression of thoughts, actions, and friendships. Your responses and rationales are cherished
Last edited by teneck83; May 21, 2023 at 12:29 AM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 436
Likes: 59
From: Alpine, New Jersey
Our White/red is a COPO car delivered to Warren, Michigan (GM ENGINEERING). Significant documentation, tank sticker , and POP. We were excited to bring it to nationals for display and judging. It’s a nice car. Triple Diamond Certofied. Just like our co-owned black L46 car.
Last edited by teneck83; May 21, 2023 at 12:27 AM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 436
Likes: 59
From: Alpine, New Jersey
I am not as experienced in NCRS as you and your father are (you said your father has been an NCRS judge for six years, so he is well aware of the ownership requirement), but I did post the rule about ownership.
NCRS has a rule that the legal title owner to the car is the one who must enter the car. This is not my rule, but this is the NCRS rule. Without debating the wisdom of this rule (one poster here referred to this rule, of requiring the title owner to register the car, as “nonsense”), the rule is neither confusing or ambiguous.
Although your initial post was vague, such that the very intelligent, perceptive, and detail-oriented members here believed that the DMV title shows joint ownership of the car, according to you, your car has one owner listed on its state-issued title. This is how you and your father chose to proceed with the state DMV, of one sole owner on the state-issued title. This was a voluntary decision on your and your father’s part, to have you be the sole legal title owner.
You and your father, who share the same name, know who, exactly, is the true, legal title owner in the eyes of your state’s DMV. This information, however, is not known to the rest of the world, including the volunteers at NCRS events who allowed your father to enter your car in judging events, using his and not the title owner’s NCRS member number, while the real title owner (you) were also physically present at the same events.
Your initial post was confusing, but it appears that both of you, who are experienced NCRS members, did not comply with the clear and unambiguous NCRS rule, requiring the legal owner to enter the car. What is not clear and unambiguous is why you and your father did this, i.e. your father, an experienced NCRS judge, entered a car for judging using his NCRS member number, despite knowing that he is not on title, and despite knowing that the true, legal title owner (you) is also an NCRS member who could enter the car himself.
You characterize your father’s entering a car he does not own in a NCRS judging event as a “mistake.” Perhaps a six-year NCRS judge (your father) presenting himself at a judging event, and entering a car that he is not the legal title owner of, and using his NCRS member number to enter the car, instead of having his son, also an NCRS member with his own number, who is true and sole legal title owner of the car, and who was also physically present at the judging events so knew the car was not being judged under his own member number, is a “mistake.”
Given the clear and unambiguous NCRS rules, you and your father also ran the risk that NCRS will not construe this the same way you have, of an innocent “mistake” that should be overlooked.
This is a forum for discussion, not just to fawn over photos of our cars. Everyone here has a right to express his or her opinion, preferably in a respectful way that does not personally attack another member. We have enough of that elsewhere on the internet.
In response your opening post, some have expressed their opinion that the NCRS rule requiring the title owner to register the car is a bad rule. Fine. There are members here who have voiced their concurrence with your position, that this was an honest mistake, and the NCRS national leadership should excuse the mistake. Also fine. Maybe they should, and maybe they shouldn’t. I find this all to be an interesting discussion, and I’m glad this forum is a place to express these opinions. I strive for clarity, and found your initial post to be confusing, so I asked for clarification. You instead construed my asking for clarification to be an “attack” (your word, not mine); and, further, although I am admittedly new and inexperienced with NCRS rules and procedures (indeed, with classic Corvettes themselves, having bought my first-ever Corvette just last fall), unlike you and your father, you’ve asked me to post various NCRS rules instead of directly answering why you and your father chose to proceed the way you did, in contravention of NCRS rules.
NCRS has a rule that the legal title owner to the car is the one who must enter the car. This is not my rule, but this is the NCRS rule. Without debating the wisdom of this rule (one poster here referred to this rule, of requiring the title owner to register the car, as “nonsense”), the rule is neither confusing or ambiguous.
Although your initial post was vague, such that the very intelligent, perceptive, and detail-oriented members here believed that the DMV title shows joint ownership of the car, according to you, your car has one owner listed on its state-issued title. This is how you and your father chose to proceed with the state DMV, of one sole owner on the state-issued title. This was a voluntary decision on your and your father’s part, to have you be the sole legal title owner.
You and your father, who share the same name, know who, exactly, is the true, legal title owner in the eyes of your state’s DMV. This information, however, is not known to the rest of the world, including the volunteers at NCRS events who allowed your father to enter your car in judging events, using his and not the title owner’s NCRS member number, while the real title owner (you) were also physically present at the same events.
Your initial post was confusing, but it appears that both of you, who are experienced NCRS members, did not comply with the clear and unambiguous NCRS rule, requiring the legal owner to enter the car. What is not clear and unambiguous is why you and your father did this, i.e. your father, an experienced NCRS judge, entered a car for judging using his NCRS member number, despite knowing that he is not on title, and despite knowing that the true, legal title owner (you) is also an NCRS member who could enter the car himself.
You characterize your father’s entering a car he does not own in a NCRS judging event as a “mistake.” Perhaps a six-year NCRS judge (your father) presenting himself at a judging event, and entering a car that he is not the legal title owner of, and using his NCRS member number to enter the car, instead of having his son, also an NCRS member with his own number, who is true and sole legal title owner of the car, and who was also physically present at the judging events so knew the car was not being judged under his own member number, is a “mistake.”
Given the clear and unambiguous NCRS rules, you and your father also ran the risk that NCRS will not construe this the same way you have, of an innocent “mistake” that should be overlooked.
This is a forum for discussion, not just to fawn over photos of our cars. Everyone here has a right to express his or her opinion, preferably in a respectful way that does not personally attack another member. We have enough of that elsewhere on the internet.
In response your opening post, some have expressed their opinion that the NCRS rule requiring the title owner to register the car is a bad rule. Fine. There are members here who have voiced their concurrence with your position, that this was an honest mistake, and the NCRS national leadership should excuse the mistake. Also fine. Maybe they should, and maybe they shouldn’t. I find this all to be an interesting discussion, and I’m glad this forum is a place to express these opinions. I strive for clarity, and found your initial post to be confusing, so I asked for clarification. You instead construed my asking for clarification to be an “attack” (your word, not mine); and, further, although I am admittedly new and inexperienced with NCRS rules and procedures (indeed, with classic Corvettes themselves, having bought my first-ever Corvette just last fall), unlike you and your father, you’ve asked me to post various NCRS rules instead of directly answering why you and your father chose to proceed the way you did, in contravention of NCRS rules.
We proceeded as usual because every registration was accepted. See the numerous posts. Cannot be any more transparent.
when you can, let us know what you find about Performance Verification AND Top Flight at the same event
Last edited by teneck83; May 21, 2023 at 12:25 AM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 436
Likes: 59
From: Alpine, New Jersey
Even more words, as I had to correct the typos!
I leave it to other members here to decide whether the question, of why your father, an experienced NCRS judge, entered a car that he did not own, in a judging event. I have not held myself out to be an NCRS expert.
I also leave it up to the members here whether asking why he did that was an “attack.” This is a forum for discussion. I found your initial post to be confusing, and asked for clarification.
I leave it to other members here to decide whether the question, of why your father, an experienced NCRS judge, entered a car that he did not own, in a judging event. I have not held myself out to be an NCRS expert.
I also leave it up to the members here whether asking why he did that was an “attack.” This is a forum for discussion. I found your initial post to be confusing, and asked for clarification.
About the accepted registration? My father registered The car because we both own the car. Apparently you haven’t read the posts
Banned Scam/Spammer
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 624
Likes: 121
Well..by virtue of this perpetual thread I feel we are all family now so allow me to share some things as I understand them.
In the eyes of the state son alone is owner of the car as that is the only name on the title. Not trying to pry into said outside agreement drafted by attorneys but as someone who does legal work I am curious on how all that works. Specifically, if my name is on a title I have the right to sell the car and at that level no other ownership is recognized...except lienholders but that is technically not ownership. Now said outside agreement could come in after the fact and may have ramifications for my having sold the car...subject to dad wanting to enforce the agreement...but side agreement does not PREVENT me from selling it in the first place. Flip a coin and one of you buy car from the other and put an end to it all. Heck Father's Day is coming up and what better present could one get??
Now as for the NCRS...first off should be as simple as...here is my NCRS #, here is a corvette, here is my judging entry fee....judge the car. Heck not even sure why NCRS membership is required if indeed we are about the cars more so than the organization itself..and given entry fee is paid.....but I digress. However not how it works now and said side dual ownership agreement is not and probably should not be recognized by NCRS for purposes at hand.
Lastly, as I advised before...humbly suggest skip the awards, contests, prizes, ribbons, points..., oh and of course the clowns....and stick with restoring, maintaining, driving, and enjoying Corvettes for the great American driving machines they are.
Now come on folks....lets see if we can hit 100 posts before the weekend is out!
In the eyes of the state son alone is owner of the car as that is the only name on the title. Not trying to pry into said outside agreement drafted by attorneys but as someone who does legal work I am curious on how all that works. Specifically, if my name is on a title I have the right to sell the car and at that level no other ownership is recognized...except lienholders but that is technically not ownership. Now said outside agreement could come in after the fact and may have ramifications for my having sold the car...subject to dad wanting to enforce the agreement...but side agreement does not PREVENT me from selling it in the first place. Flip a coin and one of you buy car from the other and put an end to it all. Heck Father's Day is coming up and what better present could one get??
Now as for the NCRS...first off should be as simple as...here is my NCRS #, here is a corvette, here is my judging entry fee....judge the car. Heck not even sure why NCRS membership is required if indeed we are about the cars more so than the organization itself..and given entry fee is paid.....but I digress. However not how it works now and said side dual ownership agreement is not and probably should not be recognized by NCRS for purposes at hand.
Lastly, as I advised before...humbly suggest skip the awards, contests, prizes, ribbons, points..., oh and of course the clowns....and stick with restoring, maintaining, driving, and enjoying Corvettes for the great American driving machines they are.
Now come on folks....lets see if we can hit 100 posts before the weekend is out!
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 11,880
Likes: 4,468
From: Virginia
I waste my time on plenty of silly things. The time you spend now with your father driving and enjoying your awesome cars will be worth more than any NCRS award.
1967 Pedal Car Champion
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 8,988
Likes: 4,146
From: US-PNW
I suspect there's some sort of inheritance tax maneuvering being attempted here. Wouldn't be surprised if other assets are similarly co-owned.
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None of these things are mutually exclusive.
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From: Cape Cod, Mass.
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I've been an NCRS member for decades. Never subjected myself to the judging process. I'm more about driving and the many good people I have met. Lots of knowledge there.
For some, judging is their focus. I respect what it takes to achieve the Blue Ribbon and what it takes to become a Master Judge. To me it takes the fun out of it. I won't opine on the merits on either side of the issue at hand. Sounds like driving will provide more pleasure than any ribbon can.
For some, judging is their focus. I respect what it takes to achieve the Blue Ribbon and what it takes to become a Master Judge. To me it takes the fun out of it. I won't opine on the merits on either side of the issue at hand. Sounds like driving will provide more pleasure than any ribbon can.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,377
Likes: 838
From: New York
2017 C3 of the Year Finalist
St. Jude Donor '20- '21
Only a fool judges a group, by the actions of one individual. Whether right or wrong, it is above my pay grade. I see both sides is having valid arguments to the merit of their side. But rules exist for a reason. Wether you agree with them or not is another issue.
The NCRS is why I have my two Vettes today. I always loved cars and loved the shape of the C3‘s. Upon calling the NCRS for some basic information an incredible man spent a long time explaining to me the ins and outs of Corvettes and the C3s in particular.( This before i found this incredible forum) He didn’t need to bother, he could have just answered my question and moved on. He clearly had a passion for these cars. It is his passion that motivated me to get off the chair and actually buy one.
A few weeks later, I called back, but I could not reconnect with an individual to thank him. in a way, this is my thanks to him. I like originality, but I also like to drive and use my cars as much as possible. Would I like my Vettes to be perfect? Hell yeah!! I work on them consistently to try to get them in there. But Ithink I’d be scared to drive it or enjoy it if it was perfect! Do I like going to shows and showing it off? Hell yeah!! I think it’s a great way to keep up the interest in our hobby and get new people involved. I think there’s plenty of room in his hobby for anything you’d like to do to your Vette and anyway you’d like to enjoy it. For some people, the NCRS is it intrical part of that. I am sure many of the members are passionate about their Corvettes and not the politics of it all. For me I walk a middle line but there is plenty of room for all. Enjoy what you have while you can and don’t sweat the small stuff. Ike.
The NCRS is why I have my two Vettes today. I always loved cars and loved the shape of the C3‘s. Upon calling the NCRS for some basic information an incredible man spent a long time explaining to me the ins and outs of Corvettes and the C3s in particular.( This before i found this incredible forum) He didn’t need to bother, he could have just answered my question and moved on. He clearly had a passion for these cars. It is his passion that motivated me to get off the chair and actually buy one.
A few weeks later, I called back, but I could not reconnect with an individual to thank him. in a way, this is my thanks to him. I like originality, but I also like to drive and use my cars as much as possible. Would I like my Vettes to be perfect? Hell yeah!! I work on them consistently to try to get them in there. But Ithink I’d be scared to drive it or enjoy it if it was perfect! Do I like going to shows and showing it off? Hell yeah!! I think it’s a great way to keep up the interest in our hobby and get new people involved. I think there’s plenty of room in his hobby for anything you’d like to do to your Vette and anyway you’d like to enjoy it. For some people, the NCRS is it intrical part of that. I am sure many of the members are passionate about their Corvettes and not the politics of it all. For me I walk a middle line but there is plenty of room for all. Enjoy what you have while you can and don’t sweat the small stuff. Ike.
Last edited by general ike; May 21, 2023 at 11:57 AM.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 455
Likes: 10
From: Parkville Missouri
I can relate…my mom and I had the same name.
So, title is held in son’s name only? What specific reason was given as to why the son only, as title owner, can’t submit the car for judging? I’m still missing something.
I don’t know any of the specific rules, except generally that the title owner is the one to submit the car for judging. Is the issue at the national level that they are interpreting the rule wrong, or that they are interpreting the rule correctly but in a stricter fashion than at the lower level(s)?
Was a particular course of action to correct this issue suggested? Or, is the car wholly ineligible for judging at the national level?
Your original post also mentioned something about a 2-owner car versus a 3-owner car. Again, because I’m new to classic Corvette ownership (and certainly my car isn’t at your car’s level condition-wise or value-wise), I don’t understand why the number of owners matters as regards to having the car submitted for judging. What is the relevance of this issue? I think I’m something like the 8th owner of my car, and as far as I know, if I show up to an NCRS judging event with clean title in my name, I’m good to go. Title in someone else’s name, turned away.
You’ve come this far, and perhaps it’s my optimistic side hoping that something can be addressed before the June 1 deadline. I would love to have this story have a happy ending!
So, title is held in son’s name only? What specific reason was given as to why the son only, as title owner, can’t submit the car for judging? I’m still missing something.
I don’t know any of the specific rules, except generally that the title owner is the one to submit the car for judging. Is the issue at the national level that they are interpreting the rule wrong, or that they are interpreting the rule correctly but in a stricter fashion than at the lower level(s)?
Was a particular course of action to correct this issue suggested? Or, is the car wholly ineligible for judging at the national level?
Your original post also mentioned something about a 2-owner car versus a 3-owner car. Again, because I’m new to classic Corvette ownership (and certainly my car isn’t at your car’s level condition-wise or value-wise), I don’t understand why the number of owners matters as regards to having the car submitted for judging. What is the relevance of this issue? I think I’m something like the 8th owner of my car, and as far as I know, if I show up to an NCRS judging event with clean title in my name, I’m good to go. Title in someone else’s name, turned away.
You’ve come this far, and perhaps it’s my optimistic side hoping that something can be addressed before the June 1 deadline. I would love to have this story have a happy ending!
It is a simple rule. A car must be registered in the name of the owner. Who is the owner? Whoever is listed on the Certificate of Title.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 436
Likes: 59
From: Alpine, New Jersey
There appears to be a common denominator.
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2024
Posts: 188
Likes: 70
OP
Sorry to hear about their stupidity, but every experience in that group I read about seems to reinforce yours and mine.
I joined the NCRS about 10 years ago, and after reading for months, and only posting a few times on their forum, I quit.
I seriously cannot be bothered with the type of people in that organization. Life is too short, and the actuarial tables thankfully will eventually destine them to the forgotten irrelevance they so justly deserve.
Sorry to hear about their stupidity, but every experience in that group I read about seems to reinforce yours and mine.
I joined the NCRS about 10 years ago, and after reading for months, and only posting a few times on their forum, I quit.
I seriously cannot be bothered with the type of people in that organization. Life is too short, and the actuarial tables thankfully will eventually destine them to the forgotten irrelevance they so justly deserve.
Last edited by Nikolai122; Jan 13, 2025 at 09:17 PM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 436
Likes: 59
From: Alpine, New Jersey
OP
Sorry to hear about their stupidity, but every experience in that group I read about seems to reinforce yours and mine
I joined the NCRS about 10 years ago and after reading for months, and only posting a few times on their forum I quit.
I seriously cannot be bothered with the type of people in that organization. Life is too short, and the actuarial tables thankfully will eventually destine them to forgotten irrelevance they so justly deserve.
Sorry to hear about their stupidity, but every experience in that group I read about seems to reinforce yours and mine
I joined the NCRS about 10 years ago and after reading for months, and only posting a few times on their forum I quit.
I seriously cannot be bothered with the type of people in that organization. Life is too short, and the actuarial tables thankfully will eventually destine them to forgotten irrelevance they so justly deserve.
Overall, my experience with the local chapter, master judges, and other members has been excellent. Learned a lot
There appears to be a disconnect in certain areas outside of the local level that has been brewing for some time, and would anticipate a shake up of administrators in the near future.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,072
Likes: 331
From: Clear Lake Shores Texas
2016 C3 of Year Finalist
Overall, my experience with the local chapter, master judges, and other members has been excellent. Learned a lot
There appears to be a disconnect in certain areas outside of the local level that has been brewing for some time, and would anticipate a shake up of administrators in the near future.
There appears to be a disconnect in certain areas outside of the local level that has been brewing for some time, and would anticipate a shake up of administrators in the near future.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,486
Likes: 524
From: Ventura California
What a shame.
What the OP was doing thru NCRS is what the organization should promote, encourage and market.
A father and son sharing in a common passion of restoring and preserving corvettes.
Working together to create great memories and a common goal.
All ruined over a minor technicality that in no way was intentional or nefarious.
And NCRS wonders why membership is shrinking.
What the OP was doing thru NCRS is what the organization should promote, encourage and market.
A father and son sharing in a common passion of restoring and preserving corvettes.
Working together to create great memories and a common goal.
All ruined over a minor technicality that in no way was intentional or nefarious.
And NCRS wonders why membership is shrinking.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 436
Likes: 59
From: Alpine, New Jersey
What a shame.
What the OP was doing thru NCRS is what the organization should promote, encourage and market.
A father and son sharing in a common passion of restoring and preserving corvettes.
Working together to create great memories and a common goal.
All ruined over a minor technicality that in no way was intentional or nefarious.
And NCRS wonders why membership is shrinking.
What the OP was doing thru NCRS is what the organization should promote, encourage and market.
A father and son sharing in a common passion of restoring and preserving corvettes.
Working together to create great memories and a common goal.
All ruined over a minor technicality that in no way was intentional or nefarious.
And NCRS wonders why membership is shrinking.
Its only a matter of time TonyinKC (NCRS admin) chimes in and says “rules are rules”.
Maybe he can elaborate on the recent notification the NCRS sent to the judges that discouraged them from also judging for Bloomington this weekend. Claiming ownership
over judges is next level
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 436
Likes: 59
From: Alpine, New Jersey
Racer
Joined: Dec 2022
Posts: 298
Likes: 87
sounds like to me by the negative comments that many of you are either jealous or fustrated because you don’t have a worthy NCRS car that would win an award because if you did you would be praising them .. I personally do not have a car that would win any award, however I took the time last year to attend an event as a spectator . I can honestly say it was a wonderful experience. All of the judges and participants were very polite and definitely know there corvettes.. we talked for hours about corvette’s of all years and had a fantastic time.. If you don’t like the NCRS that is fine , but don’t ridicule an organization because you can’t win a blue ribbon . Just my 2cents .