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Just an additional thought - this whole thing reminds me of what would sometimes happen at the race track. A car would get torn down and something illegal would be found. Car owner would protest that he's been running the car that way all season and went through tech several times before without anybody objecting to it. Nope, doesn't matter.
Those who elect to go through judging know that every last detail must conform to the rulebook. Which way a bolt is inserted, the markings on parts, the color of electrical wires. Everything is an absolute - either it does, or does not, conform. We can imagine the outcry if a car won a top award because the judges missed a part which didn't meet the specs.
Maybe the rule OP objects to needs to be changed. But I don't think he's going to win this one. It's like telling the traffic cop the speed limit is set too low, and you've passed through several radar traps before at your own speed and didn't get busted.
If meticulous compliance to a rulebook is the game you play, you don't get to choose WHICH rules in that book get applied.
Your reply helped put this whole thing into perspective. We had followed the restoration guide which is very descriptive of configuration, part numbers, bolt head stampings, date codes, ect… but doesn’t mention car registration rules. That’s a separate book that is optional to buy on their webstore.
You’ve maybe read other posts. The rule creator (David Brigham) made a rule breaking offer. That being, he will allow a PV AND Duntov judging at the same event.
The rule creator (David Brigham) made a rule breaking offer. That being, he will allow a PV AND Duntov judging at the same event.
I've never met D.B., had a car judged, or even been to a regional or national meet. My sense from reading these posts is that he was trying to appease two upset members by offering something that would be a lesser rules infraction and likely acceptable to the judging community. A plea bargain if you will. That said, I don't think all the blame lies on the judges' side of the issue.
You acknowledge you knew about the rule book but chose not to get it. It costs $20 and has the following statement in the description:
The NCRS Judging System is quite complex- don't go in without a guide!
This manual outlines all rules, procedures, and policies pertaining to NCRS judging events held world-wide, conducting an NCRS Judging School, Duntov Mark of Excellence Awards, McLellan Mark of Excellence Awards, Flight Awards, Performance Verification Testing, Sportsman Award, Chevrolet Bowtie/Star Awards, NCRS Crossed Flags Award, NCRS Founders Award, etc.
It's must-have knowledge for Corvette owners, NCRS Team Judges, Tabulators, Observer Judges, and all participants.
At the bottom of the page, it has this underlined statement:
This manual is a must have if you ever plan on having your car judged- now or in the future.
I think you and your father ignored a valuable (and inexpensive) resource and share the blame. (BTW, how can your father have been a judge for 6 years without having a copy?)
I've never met D.B., had a car judged, or even been to a regional or national meet. My sense from reading these posts is that he was trying to appease two upset members by offering something that would be a lesser rules infraction and likely acceptable to the judging community. A plea bargain if you will. That said, I don't think all the blame lies on the judges' side of the issue.
You acknowledge you knew about the rule book but chose not to get it. It costs $20 and has the following statement in the description:
At the bottom of the page, it has this underlined statement:
I think you and your father ignored a valuable (and inexpensive) resource and share the blame. (BTW, how can your father have been a judge for 6 years without having a copy?)
ah, not so fast. Had over 5 cars judged and 15-20 certificates earned. We restored and preserved our cars according to the 1969 Judging manual. It’s a great reference. A must have to restore to their standards. And that we did. That manual is a MUST have. My father is a judge and judges cars. Not people. And if anyone was to judge your car you’d want them to judge it according to the specific year of your vehicle.
The NCRS stated “must have”rule book that I’ve mentioned in other post, I found about 6 days ago. Many awards earned without it. Great advertising though
Last edited by teneck83; May 19, 2023 at 11:36 AM.
Very interesting weekend. Short background. A co-owned car has been flight judged 4 times by the NCRS on 4 separate occasions within 3 years. And passed a recent PV in Greenville 2022. My father registered the car (same name) using his NCRS number on all occasions. This is a father and son co-owned car with a legally binding agreement prepared by attorneys. Both family members were physically there for all judging events.
Upon registering the car for NCRS Nationals as a Duntov candidate David Brigham unilaterally decided that the car cannot participate. His decision is that the state registration is in “Sons name”. Despite we were both physically present for each and every judging event. David won’t accept the legally binding agreement, suggested what is a 2 owner car be retitled (making it a 3 owner car, and impossible task with a lienholder), in order for car to be judged.
David won’t accept his failure with all previous judging certificates in which the car earned. NCRS by-laws state “benefit goes to the member” related to judging discrepancies. David independently going against the NCRS by-laws.
NCRS members (father & son) followed all the rules and the mistake to register under titled owner (same name) should have been proof-read by the organization that oversees judging. Had this been picked up with first chapter event, we wouldn’t be where we are today.
Needless to say, both father and son resigned as members of the organization. It is truly unfortunate as I am 40 years old, a younger member of an aging club. My father is an NCRS judge and very active in the hobby/club.
The purpose of the NCRS is to judge cars. Not to rob a father and son of the restoration and preservation of a Duntov award.
Reason: David Brigham has failed his members and took the fun out of the hobby.
wow sorry to hear that .. personally had my 75 judged at the chapter and regional level and won top flight awards . My experience was nothing but amazing !!! Great people great judges , great time .. the judges were unbelievably knowledgeable about any year corvette and professional in every way ..
Very interesting weekend. Short background. A co-owned car has been flight judged 4 times by the NCRS on 4 separate occasions within 3 years. And passed a recent PV in Greenville 2022. My father registered the car (same name) using his NCRS number on all occasions. This is a father and son co-owned car with a legally binding agreement prepared by attorneys. Both family members were physically there for all judging events.
Upon registering the car for NCRS Nationals as a Duntov candidate David Brigham unilaterally decided that the car cannot participate. His decision is that the state registration is in “Sons name”. Despite we were both physically present for each and every judging event. David won’t accept the legally binding agreement, suggested what is a 2 owner car be retitled (making it a 3 owner car, and impossible task with a lienholder), in order for car to be judged.
David won’t accept his failure with all previous judging certificates in which the car earned. NCRS by-laws state “benefit goes to the member” related to judging discrepancies. David independently going against the NCRS by-laws.
NCRS members (father & son) followed all the rules and the mistake to register under titled owner (same name) should have been proof-read by the organization that oversees judging. Had this been picked up with first chapter event, we wouldn’t be where we are today.
Needless to say, both father and son resigned as members of the organization. It is truly unfortunate as I am 40 years old, a younger member of an aging club. My father is an NCRS judge and very active in the hobby/club.
The purpose of the NCRS is to judge cars. Not to rob a father and son of the restoration and preservation of a Duntov award.
Reason: David Brigham has failed his members and took the fun out of the hobby.
Originally Posted by Rescue Rogers
Went to one event. Stuffy, self aggrandizing, narcasitic, narrow minded *****. It turned me off and i went in the exact opposite direction
absolutely not true Rodger .. you can’t judge the whole organization on one bad chapter meeting group .. they all know there corvette’s inside and out and truly care about the preservation of these cars
wow sorry to hear that .. personally had my 75 judged at the chapter and regional level and won top flight awards . My experience was nothing but amazing !!! Great people great judges , great time .. the judges were unbelievably knowledgeable about any year corvette and professional in every way ..
awesome pics. Beautiful car. Every event we attended , including but not limited to the PV is exactly as you described. We have met and maintained outstanding friendships
[QUOTE=grady white;1606643717]absolutely not true Rodger .. you can’t judge the whole organization on one bad chapter meeting group .. they all know there corvette’s inside and out and truly care about the preservation of these cars[/QUO
You can judge an organization by their failures. Receiving a REGISTRATION ACCEPTED email, than 3 events later being told there was an error that is solely car owners responsibility, it a great measurement.
All judging events were all great experiences for the numerous cars we own
I appreciate factory original cars and the people that have the patience to restore and keep them in that condition.
I know I don't have the patience or attention span to do that.
Having said that, I don't understand why the name on the title, or who registers the car to be judged, is of any importance.
I'd think the important thing would be making sure the car is correct, and preserved in that condition.
I appreciate factory original cars and the people that have the patience to restore and keep them in that condition.
I know I don't have the patience or attention span to do that.
Having said that, I don't understand why the name on the title, or who registers the car to be judged, is of any importance.
I'd think the important thing would be making sure the car is correct, and preserved in that condition.
Likely so people aren't receiving awards for cars they don't own. Otherwise a guy could borrow a buddies car, take it to an event, and then stand in front of the crown receiving a top flight award for a car you have zero association with. Yes, the car itself is awarded, but somebody has to take the award and some people just love attention.
Thanks for the explanation, I hadn't considered that angle.
I don't like attention, if I had a car at that level I'd likely send someone else to accept the award for me.
absolutely not true Rodger .. you can’t judge the whole organization on one bad chapter meeting group .. they all know there corvette’s inside and out and truly care about the preservation of these cars[/QUO
You can judge an organization by their failures. Receiving a REGISTRATION ACCEPTED email, than 3 events later being told there was an error that is solely car owners responsibility, it a great measurement.
All judging events were all great experiences for the numerous cars we own
I see ur point !! I would definitely take it up with the higher ups of NCRS .. From my experience, they are willing to resolve any problems, such as yours… However, I do know that are strict with rules and regulations.. I remember when I got my car judged for top-flight I almost lost it because I did not put water in my reservoir for the windshield washer and they would not let me pour it in to show them It worked took off 25 points…
I Having said that, I don't understand why the name on the title, or who registers the car to be judged, is of any importance.
Jeff,
The reason why the rule is in place is to make sure that the owner is the individual that is actually representing the car and not just "some guy" filling in. So the actual owner (or owner of the business that owns the car) must actually be in attendance as the car is judged. That doesn't seem to be the case here, but that is the reason why the rule is there.
In fifteen years as team leader, I can only remember one time when an owner was not present when the judging team(s) were ready to look at the car. Fortunately (or actually, unfortunately as this story unfolded), the owner was at a swap meet tied to the event so it was relatively easy to track him down and get him to the car.
The reason why the rule is in place is to make sure that the owner is the individual that is actually representing the car and not just "some guy" filling in. So the actual owner (or owner of the business that owns the car) must actually be in attendance as the car is judged. That doesn't seem to be the case here, but that is the reason why the rule is there.
In fifteen years as team leader, I can only remember one time when an owner was not present when the judging team(s) were ready to look at the car. Fortunately (or actually, unfortunately as this story unfolded), the owner was at a swap meet tied to the event so it was relatively easy to track him down and get him to the car.
Regards,
Stan Falenski
Hi Stan,
At every event myself(owner on title) was there performing operations on my owned vehicle. Yes, my father was there by my side helping remove the Jack, spare tire, ect.
what it boils down to the the failure on the NCRS (Dave Brigham) behalf to take responsibility for his underlings, who’s job responsibility is to proof read participant event registration. A “Registration Accepted” email should have never been sent it there was an error on the form. The car was successfully judged 3 times, one including a PV less than a year ago.
At every event myself(owner on title) was there performing operations on my owned vehicle. Yes, my father was there by my side helping remove the Jack, spare tire, ect.
what it boils down to the the failure on the NCRS (Dave Brigham) behalf to take responsibility for his underlings, who’s job responsibility is to proof read participant event registration. A “Registration Accepted” email should have never been sent it there was an error on the form. The car was successfully judged 3 times, one including a PV less than a year ago.
Ron,
I have no doubt that this was the case. My explanation to Jeff was directed as to WHY the rule is in place, not that you/your dad fit that description. As I mentioned previously, I only had a no show owner issue come up one time in fifteen years so it wasn't something that I had to deal a lot with... And as it turned out, we ended up not judging the car anyway so it really didn't matter.
It is unfortunate that you have to deal with this... I would have hoped for a little more flexibility from those involved. it sounds like Dave did offer a compromise to your situation. Is that not an option you wish to pursue?
