My 2 cents..NCRS provides good reference info for restorers. Pretty much stops there. Organization is imploding on its own self absorption. They have 20 something award categories that their own documentation cannot explain. Seems less about preserving historical specimens for the love of the cars..more about points, awards, prizes, contests, etc. The board serves themselves not members. Website is state of the art circa 2005...total mess. Stodgy old fahks resistant to change. Judging? I alone am judge of my car. Bunch of auditor types looking to stick it to you. Prolly good when it was formed. Needs blown up and start from scratch.
I M restoring my car for love of an American classic..not someone else's approval or award.

 

If this all true seems Mr Brigham more interested in bureaucracy and administration than corvettes. Time he moves on...along with many others if NCRS is to survive and thrive. Members dont want that kind of nonsense.

 

That is so unfortunate to hear that there is no recourse for inaccurate application of existing rules. I can see why you are so frustrated. Again, maybe it’s the “mom” side of me that wants everything to work out, especially because there is still time before the June 1 deadline…I know exactly how exacting the Duntov award is, how many levels of flight judging an owner has to go through to get there, and how consistently near-perfect your car has to be.

This may be a really dumb question, but why does it have to be the same owner every time, for every stage up to and including Duntov? Is there a requirement that an owner submitting the car for a Duntov award has to be, literally, the same owner at every previous stage of judging?

Is that what’s being demanded now?

This makes no sense, as it’s the car that’s being judged. At each level of judging, the registered owner as of the time of that judging event has to submit the car. At each level, the owner was accepted. Now, if it’s believed that the car has a “new” owner, if the new owner shows up with valid title and an NCRS #, then what prevents the car from being accepted?

That is, if owner #1 could put a car through all of the requisite judging up to the level of Duntov, and sells the car to owner #2, it seems that owner #2 could submit the car for the final stage.

Or, is the position now that the “wrong” owner entered the car before? NCRS rules are pretty clear about timeliness of raising challenges.

If the “wrong” owner entered the car before, through a mistake and no deceit, then is the “correct” owner being precluded from entering the car now? The rules are clear that the legal owner must be present at judging; as you said father and son were there together, this requirement was satisfied.

What is the reason given as to why the “correct” owner cannot enter the car now? Are the previous awards being taken away?

Rules, which include timeliness of challenges:

http://www.ncrsnm.com/pdf/NCRS_2010J...rsAdvisory.pdf

So sorry to hear all of this.

 

OP started an identical thread in C1-C2. Extensive discussion before the thread got locked.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...6678-ncrs.html

The take-away from that seems to be :

1.The organization has rules. Whether they are reasonable or not is irrelevant here.
2. OP and his father co-own the car, and it was entered at 4 previous judging events in the father's name.
3. At the latest event, father entered the car. It was determined that based on the NCRS rules, and on how the car is registered with the state, the car cannot be entered that way.
4. The previous entries by the father should not have been allowed but the issue was not noticed at those times.
5. The judge in question - for whatever reason - was unable and/or was unwilling to make an exemption this time.

Some posters in that thread noted it's the car itself being judged, not the paperwork. Perhaps NCRS should revise the rules and process to prevent further issues. But several are of the opinion that just because NCRS screwed up on previous occasions does not impose an obligation to waive the rules this time.

FWIW - I am not an NCRS member and have no stake in this myself, I can see where both sides are coming from.

 

Just read that other thread. Just look at all the discussion about essentially meaningless paperwork technicalities IMO that have ZERO to do with car restoration. That is the point here to me...not "rules are rules" no matter how nonsensical. Forget the IRS auditing mentality and think about what makes sense. To the OP...with all due respect your first problem was chasing all the nonsense to begin with.

On another unrelated note...the R in NCRS is Restoration. They should change to NCS because much of the organization and participants have little to do with restoration anymore. Or maybe NCPS...for Preservation...might be more appropriate. I have met many who don't even own a wrench. Good to see this discussion here either way....doubtful it would be allowed over there.

 

Just an additional thought - this whole thing reminds me of what would sometimes happen at the race track. A car would get torn down and something illegal would be found. Car owner would protest that he's been running the car that way all season and went through tech several times before without anybody objecting to it. Nope, doesn't matter.

Those who elect to go through judging know that every last detail must conform to the rulebook. Which way a bolt is inserted, the markings on parts, the color of electrical wires. Everything is an absolute - either it does, or does not, conform. We can imagine the outcry if a car won a top award because the judges missed a part which didn't meet the specs.

Maybe the rule OP objects to needs to be changed. But I don't think he's going to win this one. It's like telling the traffic cop the speed limit is set too low, and you've passed through several radar traps before at your own speed and didn't get busted.

If meticulous compliance to a rulebook is the game you play, you don't get to choose WHICH rules in that book get applied.

 

I do agree with some statements. What throws this off a bit is the National Judging Chairman did offer to have the car judged for an award titled “Performance Verification” AND “National Top Flight” at the same event. That offer is against the rule book he referenced. Rule states exactly the opposite. A PV and Flight CANNOT be obtained at same event. What are your feelings about that?

Enforcement of rules is ok and breaking of them (as long as it is from the National Judging Chairman) is also ok?

As a fair reminder, the National Judging Chairman, according to the President, can make executive decisions without majority leadership vote.

 

All these rules and seemingly overbearing governance strike me as overly complex and too numerous. I guess someone thought they made sense at some point for some reason. I myself have no interest in working so hard to understand them...which should not be required. If they are not self evident, logical, and somewhat intuitive...may be opportunity for more clarity, transparency, and simplification. Just my opinion....and what do I know? Isn't this hobby suppose to be about fun, be enjoyable and about a shared passion for corvettes? Your experience seems more like an IRS audit or proctology exam.

 

The NCRS crowd is by far one of the most snobby, self centered, holier than thou crowds I've ever had the displeasure of running into.

 

It seems one of two things is going on:

1. The NCRS judges do not always know their own rules OR
2. The NCRS judges do not always follow their own rules.

I don't have any "feelings" on it because it doesn't affect me at all. I'm just adding to the forum discussion since it was posted for us all to consider.

 

The facts in the original post were unclear to me, which is why I asked OP how title was held. As best as I can tell from his response, legal title is not, in fact, joint. The title is held in the name of one person only. That is, if you look at the title document, it has only one name on it, not two. That your post asserts even now, after several responsive threads, that legal title is actually held jointly, is through no fault of your own, and it actually underscores how confusing OP’s original post is. This lack of clarity also explains why so many here have rushed to condemn NCRS without hearing the other side of the story (and, apparently, several NCRS members have quit over this).

According to OP (the son), although father and son have the same name, the man with the Roman number 2 (II) after his name holds title. Father and son know who, legally, that person is. The rest of the world, however, does not possess the certainty and knowledge that OP and his father have. Some fathers and sons with the same name use senior and junior; others use I and II. If OP’s grandfather also has the same name (a fact not mentioned here), grandpa would be I, father would be II, and OP would be III. OP did not say that this was the case; son is II, not father.

So, to the NCRS registration person accepting the registration documents at an event, if father is standing at the registration line, hands them the paper title with one name on it, represents that he is the sole registered owner as shown on the title, and he registers the car under his NCRS number, I can see how no one is going to second-guess that.

As best as I can tell from OP’s responses, son is, apparently, the legal, sole title holder, i.e. son is II. Son, therefore, is the only one who, under the NCRS rules, can enter the car, using his NCRS member number. Under NCRS rules, non-owner father cannot submit the car for judging using father’s member number. Legal title is not “fluid.”

Again, the facts remain unclear. What OP has made very clear is that both he and his father were experienced, long-term NCRS members who are very familiar with the rules.

One of the rules is that the legal title holder is the one who must submit the car for judging, using the legal title owner’s NCRS membership number. This does not appear, to me, to be an “overly complex,” unreasonable, or arbitrary rule.

The rules do not allow someone who does not hold title to the car to represent that he is the owner, and to use his membership #. OP did not express any confusion as to what this objective, bright-line rule means.

What still remains unclear is, why did two highly experienced, long-time NCRS members with a car held in the name of a single title holder submit the car for judging using the non-title holder’s NCRS member number? Why didn’t the sole legal title holder enter the car all along?

 

If you stop focusing on the trees and minutia you will see the forest. Is the award for best DMV registration? Or for the car? Ya I know...rules are rules and what not. How about this...judge the VIN (the car) not the ownership structure and provenance? What does that REALLY matter in any context...besides some "rule"?? Absolutely NOTHING.

Separately...there are many good people involved with NCRS. others not so much. The problem is the officers who serve themselves not the membership, 2001 era web site, excessive bureaucracy, plethora of indiscernable "awards",etc. Am betting it was very different organization 20+ years ago....but sadly has lost it's way.

 

Is the problem that your father is an NCRS member and you are not an NCRS member, thus he is registering a car that is not titled to him? If you are a member, I cannot understand the problem with you entering your car. Your explanation of the problem is confusing to us.

 

Father, (no Roman numeral) never stated to NCRS sole ownership, he simply registered the car using his NCRS number. Every single time the registered car in question was judged, RG1 AND RG2 were side by side. Even alternating the operations of the car. (Was told that’s also an NCRS rule).

These are all great questions. Let’s dig further, RG1 has been judging for approximately 6 years for the organization. RG2 actually introduced him to the organization. In summation have earned over 15-20 certificates of all cars owned. We never once purchased at an additional cost of membership a “rule book” located on their web store. Only rules I made clear, and knew well, were ones David Brigham said on a recent telephone conversation, “cannot PV and Duntov at same event”. His follow up email said he will “ offer us to PV and flight at same event”. I mean, at least to me, sounds like rule breaking, no? I don’t know of any other members given that offer. I declined that offer out of fairness to all other members because it would have given us an unfair advantage.

Please highlight other rules that you said I have mentioned very well, other than the PV+TF in same event.

We do own the most recent edition of the 1969 judging manual that does not make one mention of event car registration.

RG1 is retired and RG2 has other responsibilities in life. We had agreed whatever events we wanted the car judged he take care of registration. So he did. That being said, EVERY event we either trailered the car together in my truck or drive if reasonable distance. If you’re driving behind the 1969 car and see QQ RJG 1 license plate just wave.


OP, me (RG2), never questioned, and took ownership that a mistake was made by RG1. That simply being he used his NCRS 5 digit number versus RG2’s 5 digit number. We didn’t lie, we didn’t cover up.

Now that’s all cleared up, when registering a car the forms ask for NCRS number, vin, trim tag, insurance & registration. Would you call it a proofreading mistake by the NCRS because they did not pick up the registration mistake by my father?

Whew, happy we got that far. Now back to the phone conversation with Marilyn (NCRS office lady). Once we were aware of the error of registration, with her suggestion, I reregistered for the national event the car and another car, with my NCRS number. I have the printed registration acceptance in my files. Both with my NCRS number and paid over $1100.


In summary, owners(RG1 & RG2) owned up to registration mistake when we were alerted(after it passed 3 judging events). Again, three previous events it was not picked up by ourselves or NCRS. David Brigham will not accept the PV the car earned (both RG1&RG2 present) less than a year ago, the prerequisite, for the Duntov, simply because if an NCRS number mistake by a 72 year old on a registration form.

Now. After your attack on the OP, OP (RG2) hopefully cleared this up for you.

My question i encourage you to reply to, is: How do you feel that the National Judging Chairman is willing to break a rule he knows very well? That being his offer to PV AND Top Flight at the National Convention?

let us know.

 

My NCRS number is 58118, his is 62820. Both are members. We agreed he register the car for events we want to take it to together

 

I told Dave Brigham to either put the Vin or “Joe blow” on the certificate. Judge the car. Not a simple registration mistake. Restoration and preservation is what this is all about. I also asked him to acknowledge his mistake, which he won’t. (That being the NCRS failed to proof read all previous applications)

 

yes. We were notified after the third event it was judged. Missed by us AND the NCRS. And reregistered using correct NCRS number once notified

 

What you suggest - "judge the VIN not the ownership" - is how the thing "should" work. No disagreement. However, that's not how the rules read. The rules, right or wrong, say it must be done in a certain way. There are a lot of people today who think because the law isn't what they think it should be, they don't have to follow it. Unlike what seems to be happening in society today, it looks like NCRS actually decided to enforce the rules as written.

 

Could a few more people post that the rules are the rules like it or not??? I don't think we have quite enough posts around that point which completely misses the headline story here.

 

I think you have stripped away the emotion and excuses, and stated things very well.