I'm gonna stay on track guys. I appreciate all the post because it has gotten me funneled down to the following:

Project Scope:
I want to rebuild the matching engine using the matching major components. In other words, the old stuff, block, heads, manifold, carb, some accessories, the rest can be new such as all internals!

Variations:
Go to 350 crank and optimize the old rebuilt components and new cam for best street performance. Add headers.

Budget: $3500-$4000 max

secondary project:
Get to around 10:1 ratio from flywheel to pavement in 1st gear. This is supposed to give me best acceleration. New tranny? Rebuild Muncie with new gears? change rear end gears? I don't know options. Engine first, one thing at a time.

Budget: $1700? (Don't know enough yet to nail down budget)


My engine is apart. The bores are 4.00. I'm thinking it will not be too much risk that this is not a good block. It isn't very dirty and gummed up at all. But I guess you don't know until you spend money! But if it is ok, and Billa's numbers are about the same around here, I will have a matching block for the same money as a new block from GM. Only difference is the 2 vs. 4 bolt and other than that, to me it's better to use the original.
I read the rebuild books. No problem, nothing scary there.

So I need to get only 4 more questions answered before I start getting parts together while I get the rework done.

1) Should I open the valves from 1.9 to 2.02? I say no, not for a 350.

2) What extra machine work to heads and intake without blowing budget.

3) What cam to use? I need specific part numbers. Remember I want best possible performance without sacrificing drive ability to much. (Would like a little of that cool lope sound though) I know my machine shop will be a good source for this also.

4) I still don't get the +'s and -'s to the different kinds of lifters, hydraulic, flat tappet, hydraulic rollers. Please explain general knowledge and then best for my application.

Getting closer!
Thanks!

 

You can live with 3.70s on the highway, going to a 4.56 will make
your car miserable on the highway. RMG-1304000069=
2.64,1.75,1.34,1.00. use a flat top two valve relief piston with
your 64cc heads, the original dome piston will make you miserable
on todays gas quality. for a cam you will have good gearing about
10.0 comp. so go with some duration and lift. mid 270s advertised
duration 224/226 .050 duration, with the poor airflow of the factory
heads don't expect a lot of power.

 

1) Going to bigger valves isn't needed for your application. It's not just going to bigger valves, but sweeping the chambers to make sure they're not shrouded...and then porting as well. Flow is a combination of all these things, not just bigger valves. This is one of those "while I'm in there" things that starts running up the budget.

2) I honestly wouldn't do anything else to the heads. There is definitely some significant HP in cleaning the bowls and doing some clean-up here...but again, by the time you pay someone to do it you're back at the price of aftermarket heads.

3) The BEST source for cam data is to go to CompCams and fill out their Cam Help form...and then compare that to recommendations made here. I have some thoughts on the cam...but you need to finalize the head decisions first

4) The short lifter tutorial is that roller cams are better in every way than flat-tappet cams...except price. If you can afford a roller cam - do it, period. Roller hydraulics are good to about 6K.

 

I would lean t'wards the org.set up still,and do a complete rebuild,and do it correctly.I have a 68 vert L79 #'s matching car here,but have never driven it,so I asked a friend of mine that has had several vettes over the years about the power of a 350 horse 327,and he said that they are a blast to drive,and get the r's very quick.
You arn't trying to go drag racing,but a weekend warrior.These cars were very peppy back in yesteryear,and that hasn't changed.If you have porting done to the heads,and work done in the bowls,a semi-healthy cam,headers,the spread bore carb,a 4-speed,and 370's in the assend,then you will have a car that will do what you are looking for.
I have a 75 L82 coupe as a DD:the lowest horsepower year.The engine has been rebuilt w/a semi-healthy cam,and I added/fabed big tube 67-69 Camera hooker side mounts,and the car is not the fastest car on the streets,but very quick of the line,and pulls up to redline very strong.If I jump off the line,no I can't set the tires up,but when I rap it out,and shift up to 2nd,it jumps sideways,then falls on it's face for a second from 2nd to 3rd like all good Turbo 400s do.What I'm saying is.....it's a Corvette,it sounds healthy w/a nice lobe,and there isn't much that can touch it,IF I was to try to street race,but you can show off w/it,and that sounds like that is what you are after.
Make your car handle well,and stop well,then you will be more comfortable w/what you have,and knowing how your car is going to react every time.A s0-s0 hot car that handles perfect,will run circles around a fast death trap.Good brakes,BIG sway bars,soft springs!
Weren't we all raised around these cars before we could afford aluminum heads,and all the technology?I know that technology has advanced tremendously,but I also,know the old 65 fastback that I had w/a 289 Hipo bottom end,69 351 Windsor 4Bbl.heads,and 2-4s,w/4-speed,and 391's,headers,and sollid cam,set that car side ways,and very little would beat it.It ran 12's,and was built from swap meets,and on a piece of cardboard in the sliding door area of a 74 Ford Econopline van.I'm a dumb a@*,and built a 12 second car when I was 16.
Use the technology to make what you have work better,and more dependable,but you don't need to go crazy w/all this other stuff,unless the bug bites,and you want something that is more than a weekend warrior.If you are going to bash this car,then save the 327,but if you just want to go out,and spin the tires from the stop light every once in awhile,and grab a few r's,then there's NO reason to go all these other routes,w/non-org.parts,bud.
I'm just a dumb southern boy,and broke at that,but man we sure use to have fun back in the day before all this new technology came into play.You can have a 13 sec.68 w/massaging what you have,and 13's arn't too shabby,bud.

 

That self described "dumb southern boy" has captured everything I have been trying to do, say and determine in 140+posts. My ORIGINAL post speaks about the old engines and "Weren't these cars fast?". Well, they are, especially for my needs. Whats great is I started with a question and basically worked through it to this point. I have learned a lot from books and this forum, defined the project and the budget. Now I am confident in my decision and will not second guess it during the build. And my car will be the way it is supposed to be.
Like Billa says this doesn't have to be the first and last engine I build.....
I have secret plans, or dreams of finding a real old Chevy pick-up and building that crazy monster blown engine for it! (don't tell my wife) But one thing at a time.
So vettesbydesign - I'm the opposite but the same. I'm the dumb guy raised in the heart of Chicago watching all these cars racing in the streets, making all kind of noise, always on the lookout for the cops. Fun stuff!!
You hit the nail on the head!!! THANKS
P.S. When you gonna sell me one of those Mustangs so I can get my son dreaming with me?

 

1) Thats what I thought, for my application bigger valves would just slow the charge down.
2) Agree, it's a budget decision but will inquire with shop.
3) OK, I will get the heads done first then revisit the question.
4) Got it, again a budget decision.

Considering what vettesbydesign says about the 327 reving up fast maybe I should stay with the 327 crank? Or would that comment also apply to the 350?

Thanks!!!!!!!

 

It's an age-old debate - is a short-stroke screamer "better" than a longer stroke engine? IMHO (and just IMHO) there's "no replacement for displacement" and more CID and a longer stroke is a better choice for engines that aren't going to see 6000+ RPM. Ultimately we're generally after low-and mid-range torque vs. high-rpm HP for a street engine.

That being said, there's certainly nothing wrong with sticking with a 327

 

63Maco started a thread back in January entitled:
Bigger is not always better!
This is a fantastic thread and reality check that everyone should read fully.

 

Billa wrote:
4) The short lifter tutorial is that roller cams are better in every way than flat-tappet cams...except price. If you can afford a roller cam - do it, period. Roller hydraulics are good to about 6K.[/QUOTE]

So from what I read:
Solid "aka" mechanical lifters are for racing purposes and require regular adjustment. So it's out.

My choices are Hydraulic flat or roller.
The roller advantages are longer life/less wear - (not necessary for my purposes as I won't put 2,000 miles a year on the car)
Rollers generate more lift and have less friction.
Looks like about $500 more for roller kits which include lifters and rockers.
What gains do I get for the $ in my basically stock application?

 

Even if you're only turning 5500 RPM or so peak, rollers will deliver more power with better driveability. But with your budget, IMHO the determining factor is price...and I wouldn't spend the money on this build.

Note that the price changes a bit if you buy a new block, since it would have roller provisions and you could use factory components vs. aftermarket "retrofit" components at about 1/2 the price.

 

What machine prices are in Seattle are not what they may be in Chicago or even what amount of work actualy needed is not as much as most would like to do on an overhaul. Grinding, radiusing, balancing are not always needed in a mild performance overhaul.

Sometimes only a polishing is needed for overhaul but more than likely turning it .010" under and radiusing the journorls is more popular. But balancing will cost the same whether new or used crank and not an issue other than it may not be needed with the original crank and rods if the new pistons weights match up.
Yes SCAT cranks are a great deal if u need a replacement, but u need to price out the nessesary machine work first. Heck did AWilson even check for a forged steel crank? Give the snout a tap with a hammer and see if it rings?



Don't even worry 'bout rear end ratios. That will be 12mos to 24mos from now when u can actully drive it again and evaluate it. BTW that 3.70 ratio is great and i don't why u what to spend over $1K to lose it?


BTW a 2 bolt block is good enough for up to 500hp.
A block that is running before teardown is more than likely to be good and decking alows u to adj deck height for good quench where a new block has an extra .025" to deal with - another headache for the beginner. Bore and hone? Well boring gives an extra 3-5 c.i. - pretty cheap hp/$ there. U what to at least hone any new block anyways so the cost is in there either way. Thermal clean and pressure test will vary between shops and the amount of business u do there.

Yes go with the larger vlvs. Shops that do alot of head work can set u up for more not much more $$$. Try Performance Chevy Products (602) 254-9586 Address: 2995 W Whitton Ave, Phoenix, AZ 85017 - they did great work for me and specialize in sb Chevy original heads. They have a tool that does the pocket porting in a snap and another for the vlv unshrouding. My guess they will do your heads for around $500 with free shipping - call'm.

Once u get the heads back then measure the chambers. Then once the block is decked u can select pistons. To repeat myself don't select the cam untill u nail the c.r. and u can't do this until u have the chamber vol and the pistons installed to measure the creavas vol. But if your talking any kind of retro roller cam then u have way too much money to spend and don't need any help from me to save on an overhaul.:o If u spend more that $2K than u made some bad choices or have money to waste on mild overhaul.

BTW what did that machine shop say why u needed the pistons?

Hope this helps and good luck,
cardo0

 

I'm still digesting the recent posts but in the mean time I went out and with the crank sitting on the table I tapped it with a small hammer. I was shocked to hear it ring. I hit the cam and got a thud. I tapped everything else, heads, block, intake and got a thud. Back to the crank and yes it is a rather ear piercing ring. (Don't worry I didn't hit it on any machined surfaces.)
I think I read somewhere that you can also tell by looking at the parting lines?

 

I did it again. This probably sounds stupid but the sound reminds me of when I was a little kid and I took my dads ball joint splitting tool and hit it on the ground. Not nearly as long lasting but still the same sound.

hey maybe the rods are forged? They are still connected to the pistons. Can I still test them?

 

Exactly so - not sure what this hammer thing is about , but the parting line on the nose is 100% certain. A narrow line indicates a cast crank, a wide line indicates forged. Here's a shot of one of my factory forged cranks showing the wide line. Yes, I know it's stored on it's side - it's supported on wooden v-blocks

 

IMHO you're barking up the wrong tree here. You don't need fancy rods for this power level. The stock rods are fine...but as noted previously the reality is that it's generally cheaper to buy NEW aftermarket rods than to refurbish your existing ones by the time they're resized with new bolts.

 

So whether they are forged or not I don't need them and after market are cheaper than rebuilding. ok.

 

Cardo0
Thanks a bunch for the lead!!
I called Performance Chevy Products in Phoenix. Sounds like a good place. Talked to a guy named Bill. They do specialize in Chevy SB's. Heres what he said:

Heads:
bronze guides
valves
screw in studs(same price with or without them)
pocket porting and valve unshrouding (he has custom tooling because he specializes in sb Chevy just as Cardo0 said)
2.02 / 1.6 valves
2-weeks
$450 rebuilt

But nothings easy. Heres the next I need to get through before I send them:

He said he doesn't like installing hard seats because there is too much chance of hitting the water jacket thus basically destroying the heads. This is because of core shift, which I am very familiar with as I bought castings for 15 years.

He said since I will put <2000 miles a year on the car, I should just buy the lead additive as I refuel.

Please advise on this as I don't understand why the hard seat has to be bigger than the existing seat. Don't you just machine it out, open maybe .010 and press new hard ones in? Is the jacket possibly that close?

What do you guys think.

 

$450 for the pair is a good price for that level of work!

The "custom tools" are most likely the Goodson cutters - they make a tool that cuts the seats and bowls at the same time as well as bowl and chamber "hogs".

I wouldn't sweat the seats or use an additive - for all the discussion around non-hardened seats I have yet to find a set of "soft" seats that are recessed...even on hard-driven engines...other than from abuse.

It is possible to get into the jacket if significantly oversize seats are required. It is a press fit, but it's not uncommon to have to go to an oversize if the seats are hammered.

 

If your going to spend that much on the heads
have them tap the heads for screw in studs

 

Guys, I'm going to use my stock components and spend a little money on cleaning them up.
So since he is going to do the extra work to improve the flow, then I think going to the 2.02/1.6 makes sense. If so, then that's the decision and the heads will go out this week.
Opinions?