Golden
the 1970 4165 is the BEST VALUE i know of. There MUST be others or we are all doomed
SUV? i don't know anything about them; never ever rode in one. my comments r to get people thinking. I have no serious conclusion. it is just chat.
.
efi is more like rube goldberg, a 1000 lines of code to equal an idle circuit again, just chat, nothing to lose sleep over.

 

A new 4165 is more exciting than most parts.
But, it is driving it and nailing it at 25 mph in 1st that gives the grins.
I should buy a spare before they quit making them.

 

EFI doesn't have to be mega expensive and can be a massive improvement over a carb but isn't implemented very well in the U.S.

 

This is very true. We have most guys buying carbs that either have VS, or are too big. EFI blows them away. No contest.
.
But, a 4165 can surprise doubters, maybe even win in some cases. It is in a class by itself

 

I did put a Holley spreadbore on the 77 Bonneville 350 and later on the 455 out of the Grandville put into the same 77. I saw no improvement in MPG over the Qjet. Call me still skeptical. Maybe Car Craft will do an article...

 

Hey Matt is the big port in the back of the carb for my power brakes? its got a screw/plug in it that instructions say to remove only for 66-67 california. Do I remove that plug? I skipped that part because it said california only. was called gulp valve i think.

 

Qjets are hard to beat. Those cars need dual exhausts & turbo mufflers, not a new carb. Headers too.
Did u set the base timing by the book?
Did u do anything to the egr?
Did u tune the idle mixture screws for mpg? or vacuum?
Did u use a thinner head gasket to raise compression?
Did u call me for help? I often could improve on the stock mpg. Twice i couldn't! So i sold the cars. 1 was a 65 Merc Comet 6 cyl auto. 1 owner 40k miles got 11mpg gave it a tune up, even rebuilt the carb- a 1 bbl still got 11, gone 1 week later can't win them all, nobody bats 1000
.
71
u can use the plugged port for PB if it is convenient

 

Awesome!

Post back and let us know how it works. I am thinking of doing the same thing on my car. So... let us know

 

FAST EZ-EFI $2,136 at Summit Racing.

Hot Rod article indicating a gain of 10HP, 19TQ and 5.2 MPG on a mild 327 (18.4 vs 13.2 MPG).

Postulate 20,000 miles/year and $3.00/gallon.

Carb fuel cost: $4,545/year
EZ-EFI fuel cost: $3,260/year
Difference: $1,285/year.
Cost Recovery: 1.6 years.

 

Well, i saw that test! what a joke! They wouldn't DARE put a 4165 on it. That is my challenge to you . compare a 4165 to EFI. A 327 should get 20 mpg w/4165. That system could cost MORE to operate, but probably not. Those guys admitted they didn't fully lean it out. The 4165 is properly set right out of the box. What kind of self tuning is that EFI? Can't get 20 mpg on a 327. Pathetic.
It is just a fancy expensive pressurized carb. But thanks for posting that nonsense! It shows how desperate magazines are for business(both advertising and readers) due to the recession, the web, and declining readership.

 

Whether FI gives better MPG than a carb is dependant a lot on usage and driving style.

Where carbs use lots of fuel is on cold start and stop start driving. If you live in the city and do short journeys then FI will whip a carb. Particularly if you like to sprint between intersections.

If you do long, constant speed highway runs, then a well chosen/set-up carb can equal an FI system.

TBH though most of the bolt on FI systems for V8's don't make the most of the change of system.

I central 4 barrel intake is a terrible design for many reasons, individual port injection would show a vast improvement in performance and MPG.

Junk this:-



In favour of this:-

 

Thanks for the useless rant. Since you don't like their test - why not do one of your own rather than just spouting this continuous line of ? There's a joke here for sure - and it's your continuous near-incoherent ranting about this carb with generalties but no specifics.

1. Have you, personally, ever done a back-to-back chassis dyno test of "Matt's Magic Carb" and other carbs, both well-tuned, to validate your position?

2. Have you, personally, ever done a back-to-back chassis dyno test of "Matt's Magic Carb" and a mass-flow-type EFI setup, both well-tuned, to validate your position?

 

Can anybody top this?

 

billa
at last a man willing to put his money where his mouth is!
i will do all the testing you want for the normal shop rate of $90/hr plus actual dyno/parts/supplies costs.
FULL REFUND PLUS $1000 of my money if, my results are not more cost effective over 50,000 miles.
and if i get more mpg than that efi and equal power, u pay me a $1000 bonus.
Fair enough? You can watch the tests in person.

 

ROTF, L! Matt, why would I pay YOU to validate YOUR position? I know what works here - every single recent aftermarket EFI test has shown benefits over a carb in all respects, and every single current car manufacturer runs EFI. The only one touting this nonsense that an EFI delivers worse milage, HP and TQ than a carb is YOU. It's absolutely hilarious that you can't back up all this garbage you've been touting simply because you've never, ever actually tested it!

Here's a genuine counter-offer: You supply an engine with a dual-plane, spread-bore intake, 4165 out of the box and engine dyno time. I'll supply the FAST EZ-EFI, and travel to your shop.

Highest HP: 1 point
Highest TQ: 1 Point
Lowest BSFC: 2 points
3 runs

Loser pays for it all - engine, time, carb, EFI and all travel. Not sure where your shop is, but I could travel the 1st week in January.

To the OP, apologies for going way OT.

 

billa
thanks for your reply!
i'm not saying all carbs get better anything.
i'm not saying the 4165 gets better everything, but it may surprise you if u try one.
i'm saying efi is not worth the cost to convert a c3, learning time, install time, and out of warranty efi repairs, compared to a 4165 properly installed.
it is not worth $1800 even if it gains 10hp and 3 mpg(i don't know if it can or not).
for that kind of money a person that goes 20,000 mi a year, really should put the $$$$ toward buying a ~c5.
.
I'm about to so some more mpg tests on my 61. i got rid of the flex fan and want to see the cruising mpg.
I have a calibrated tank for the tests. Lets say i report my mpg and u don't believe it.
Here is something we could do in a friendly manner.
U stop by, we ride over to rt 1 in edgewater and put exactly 1 gallon in an empty tank at a gas station. We ride up rt 1 until it runs out. U can verify mpg. I think mpg is the goal here. Anybody can add say, 150 hp w/nitrous, but to get good mpg isn't so easy.

 

'77 Bonneville, 350 P (real Pontiac) engine.
Car had 2" duals with stock type mufflers and no cats, stock manifolds
HEI with base timing set by the decal. Later put a Moroso curve kit in it. More power at launch, same mpg.
EGR was blocked off.
Tuned for vacuum
Stock head gasket, never took engine apart.
didn't call you for help because this was late '80s.

Pulled the 455 from the rustbucket '72 Grandville and ran it for a few years with that same carb until the rearend went out in the car. Tuned the same way, no EGR. No mileage improvement. Dragged it around to 3 houses, finally sold the 455 and crushed the car around '00.

 

I'll be nice and not go back over your posts to show where you did indeed make many of those claims.

So...instead of investing in our beloved GEN I-powered Chevy's we should sell them and buy a new EFI car? Why is that? Oh, because of the better power, driveability and economy from that EFI engine. I have a C5...but I love my '72 pickup and I will be doing an EFI swap of some kind (Likely EZ-EFI 'cause I love the FAST stuff) for exactly those benefits.

I think you need to re-read the article I posted, and look at some of the other testing being done. In every case there's a power, driveability and MPG gain...and all of these definitely make an aftermarket EFI for a street-driven engine a good investment. Learning curve is essentially zero, it's a bolt-on other than an electric fuel pump and I have no idea what you're talking about with "out of warranty" repairs. Figure the cost of a 4165, dyno tune to get it exactly right and then overhauls every couple of years... Hey, you asked me to "show you the math", and I did.

I don't care what MPG you get - I care about your claim that the 4165 will deliver better economy than other carbs and aftermarket EFI. I'm happy to come out and do a road test with your car and my EZ-EFI...with the same proviso that loser pays for all expenses. I'll even do the installation if you've got an electric fuel pump

If not, then we can let this die a happy death. The 4165 was a good pick by the OP, although the Q-Jet would have delivered the same power, driveability and MPG within a percentage point and likely for less cost and fewer installation challenges.

 

Mark
good to see your info!
Every "old" car i tune needs more base timing than the sticker. That is for the EPA imo. They all ran better with lots more advance. But when it pings, i back off.
Stock mufflers while quiet, are too restrictive and hurt efficiency.

Billa
u put words into my mouth. I DID NOT SAY SELL your C3.
You are now on ignore. Have a nice day.

 

I can't think of a prouder achievement than making your ignore list. I have to think it's well-populated with folks that simiarly challenged you with a) facts and b) opportunities to prove your rants, which you decline.

Hopefully now we can step aside from "Matt's Magic Carb" and get back to making HP...and economy