If you can't verify that the engine was original to the car--and you can't because of the lousy stamping--then you can never know that this car was ever an LT-1 car. The only valid info you have is the VIN number (which matches the tranny and the restamped block). The most you should ever pay for this car is what you would spend for an LT-1 "clone" car in the same condition. For a '71 coupe clone with good paint and in good mechanical condition, that would not exceed $20K in this economy. Anyone can buy all the components that are 'unique' to an LT-1 and install them. And, unless you drop the oil pan, you can't even tell if the engine has 4-bolt main bearing caps, let alone all the LT-1 engine 'innards'.

 

WK

Lots of good advice in the replies, and yes people do fake the LT-1's for profit. Some more than others.

I personally do not think a LT-1 will bring enough over a 270 or 454 car to justify a 100% complete fake job. So there will be something wrong somewhere if you look hard enough.

I also suggest that the VIN matching on the window pillar / block / trans is not enough. Look at the frame after removing the left rear wheel.

I was at the Charlotte Auto Fair last week and there was a 71 LT-1 Coupe for 24K. I was looking it over and I noticed the emission label on fire wall had the wrong letters. I did not say anything. The owner the jumped in my face and stated its a matching numbers car. I then noticed that someone failed to remove the return line to the fuel tank. I then asked the man about that, he studdered and said the numbers match.
I said , sir with some time and money I can make the numbers match on any car, and walked away.

The key is , is it an original matching #'s car?

There are some things easy to change and other are not so easy.

from easiest to hardest , look for these things

emission label on fire wall 71 LT-1 is AX

HP / Torq badge behind shifter 71 LT-1 is 330 hp / 360 lbs torq

hood w/ decals , look at underside to see if 427 or 454 holes have been puttied over.

TI amplifer box or at least the 3 holes where it was mounted to inner fender well

6,500 RPM red line tach

no radiator overflow tank or holes where radiator over flow tank was removed.

return fuel line. Look all along the frame, it could be cut to a point just out of sight from under hood. LT-1's w/ holley carb have only a feed line
no return.

Listen for solid lifters when running.

Correct fuel tank. The return line may be completly removed, but the tank if not replaced would still have the nipple where the line attached.
nipple on the P/S side wall, there is a deep indention on all tanks, but no nipple on LT-1 tank

HD caps on the read end 1/2 shaft connections to the yokes

NO AC , no way to hide this one if removed w/o a new fire wall.

4 bolt main on the crank. Most will not let you remove a oil pan, but you may be able to borrow / rent a flexible bore scope that can be inserted in the oil drain.

check read gear / trans ratios

M20 3:36 economy / 3:55 STD / 3:70 performance

M21 and M22 3:55 economy / 3:70 Std / 4:11 performance

the 270 HP cars w/ 4 speeds came with M20 only I beleive

The read ends were 3;36 std or 3:08 enonomy

Alan71, please correct me if I am wrong.


Good luck with you search , hope you find what you are looking for.


David

 

I own a 1970 LT1 and it has double hump heads. The heads in the photo are not double hump heads. What did a 71 have installed???

 

For the OP and Sully: here's another pic to show the style or pattern of what a legit stamping reflects. Mine is also a 72 like the one Mike Ward offered but you get the idea.



Restamps like the one posted by the OP are more obvious when compared to examples like these. Food for thought.

Thanks too, to David Mayhew for his insight. The return fuel line absent on LT-1 models was great to learn about. I was ignorant of that fact.

Thanks!

 

Get your deposit back the guys a lying POS, it's FRAUD

 

I've asked for my money back but haven't heard back from the guy. I doubt that I ever will. I might have a claim in small claims court but that would not be worth my time and effort. I chalk this up as a lesson learned.

 

hello,
I have what is probably a newbie Lt-1 question concerning this block stamp. As I said in my previous post the first "correct" stamping of the VIN is only three cars away from mine and is the same, but the second set are different.
My VIN is stamped identically in font and location, but I looked tonight when I got home and my second stamping reads "C515CKY"? the previous stamping reads (VO511CKW)
I would try for a pic but the stampings are almost impossible to get a clear shot of due to everything being in the way?
I know that my car has the original engine and is in fact an LT-1, but why the difference in these stampings in cars that are so close together?

 

Casting ending in 487 but heads in Ebay ad are 1970 closed chamber style heads (will make about 15-20HP more than 1971 heads.) Looks like it may be a real LT-1 but more inspection would be required.

My wife's 1970 roadster was undocumented but, based on buyers responses, I knew it was a legitimate LT-1 car based on hardware Vette had on it (6.5K redline tach, single fuel line, HD rear side yokes, correct radiator, factory intake, 6qt "trap door" oil pan, 186 heads with guide plates and screw in studs, 4555 Holley in a box.) When going through my 70, it legitimized itself when the sacred "pink wire" was found on the ignition switch indicating it was factory installed K-66 transistor ignition car.

The seller of the 71 said he has the K-66 ignition parts, if he does and the distibutor parts are in good shape, your $1000 ahead of the game plus you can sell that MSD distributor (for at least $250-300) to someone who isn't smart enough to appreciate the well engineered factory Delco hardware that Chevy put in our Corvettes (that should almost be enough to reinstall the good K-66 parts.)

If your lucky, he has an original Holley for the Vette too, if not plan on spending some $$$$ to find one (at least it's the same as a Camaro 4 speed car.)

I have owned a "survivor" 1970 LT-1 Vette, I didn't enjoy driving that car (I was constantly thinking an illegal alien would blow a stop sign and take the originality off of it while driving it.)

My wife's 1970 is a great looking car and enjoyable to drive but far enough gone from original to never have to worry about a destruction of a original piece of history (I put a "Jeep box" power steering set-up in it, TKO 600 5 speed, Tilt-tele column, and power windows while restoring it.) Maybe our 70 will never get top auction $$$ but, I don't care, my wife liked it better than her C5 Z06 so we sold that Vette and enjoy the LT-1 and it gets FAR MORE! compliments from the general public than any late model Vette. My hard work and effort have already been rewarded by my fellow Corvette enthusiasts when it took "peoples choice award" for best C3 Vette at a big car show last year (mission accomplished now we can drive it and get some rock chips in it)

 

This is my ('72) replacement LT-1 tank that I just installed. Notice no return line on p/side. The original one that I removed was identical.

 

RONTECH

The 71 and 71 cars did not use the double hump heads , Theu used the same heads as the 270hp cars. This was part of the de tuning / lower compression effort to allow unleaded lower octane gas.

330 HP down from your 370

Thanks
David

 

I'm going a little out on a limb here but, I'm going to say it's a good chance this Vette is a legitimate LT-1 car, take our information and ask the seller some questions, get photos of fuel line, differential side yokes, ect...

I guess it all boils down to what you want to do, myself, I enjoy driving my Vettes, if you like sitting around all day long waiting for some "experts" to show up and critique your Vette pointing out it's descrepencies for the factory assembly line and how this isn't right or that's too glossy of a paint color, I guess you need to look for another Vette. But for the Ebay auction price if the motor work was done as described, and the Vette is rust free, I think it is a good buy of a muscle Vette. Your decision, I know I wouldn't have a problem owning a non-stock good running LT-1 Vette with subtle power increasing modifications, driving one and hearing the solid lifters singing their tune makes me HAPPY! I can't say that I enjoy the show circuit as much, same goes for my wife.

 

An original tru LT-1 in the 20 to 25K range will be in poor condition


A good quality driver with most of the original pieces will start at 30K


To get a high #2 o low # 1 car with smog / TI still present will start getting in the 45 and up range


The car you want is out there, just keep looking.


Thanks
David

 

Neither engine in pics above is an LT1 so it they have a different suffix, CKW is a base HP engine.

V= Flint assembly plant
0511 = built May 11th

Your engine is probably V0515CKY.

 

Hi David,
Thanks for taking the time to post your list again.
The items in your list are ALL clues to the way originally left St. Louis.
I try to weigh ALL the information in deciding about a car's originality.

It's good to remember that a REAL LT-! car could have 'lost' it's engine but have ALL the rest of the things that make up an LT-! car still in place. What is that car's value?
While another car could have a very nice re-stamped LT-! engine but be missing SOME of the clues you'd expect to see on an LT-! car. What's that car's value?
The tough car is one with a typical appearing stamp pad and All the things that make up an LT-! car. Do you trust what your eyes see and what your brain knows? I guess on this car the documentation comes into play.
So the ideal car has all the right bit's and parts (big and small) and the documentation that would have come with the car.
I spoke to someone a few weeks ago who was recently miraculously led to a 72, LT-!, a/c car. He related that with-in 15-20 minutes he was sure what he was looking at.
I'll post my 71, 350/270, pad again just to illustrate a pretty typical Flint pad and stamped information.
Regards,
Alan

 

Good morning Alan

You make some very good points about the delima that we all face when looking at a old "rare" car, but Corvettes & 67 thu 69 Z-28's seem to take the prize on level of difficulty.

To me there is even a problem with tank stickers, now that the guy on E-Bay sells them to say what you want and makes them look 40 years old. Blantant fraud sold on the inter net. The sold for novelty line is his sheild I guess.

So now how can you really trust a tank sticker.

There are cars that are still owned by original owners that have bill of sale / regristration/ title etc. that solve many of the worries, but better have your check book in good shape to buy that car!!!!

I think there is some value in getting a owner history and going back and contacting previous owners.

I suspect that in the late seventies to the mid 80's or so the LT-1's were not as valuable as they are now. There may have been some people that put a hood on a car or maybe made the motor look right.

But would have not seen any reason to replace tanks or the other hard stuff.

If a car will all of the rght stuff was like that 25 years ago then that is a very good clue.


In the end we can only do our best and satsify our own level of need to know and buy a car.

You are truely in a rare group of original owners and I envy you for that.


Take care

David




In the end all we can do is our best

 

Thats a great looking flint stamping and good one to judge others by. You can see the letters so clear.

Now that paperwork is all being faked and sold by some slime ball on ebay , we have repro trim tags , ect ......I Hope the 1972 cars and up are becomming more attractive with their VIn # at least ID the engine that came in it.

THose 50's and 60's corvette can pretty much be anything you heart desires now days.
I think it is getting to the point people are just buying the car they want, long as it has all the goodies they desire. . Like I saw a 442 with out documentation bring as much as the guy with the biggest display of paperwork and documentation you ever saw. Both car were equal condition.

I think the 50-60 's cars with out factory verification program like Pontiac has is a losing cause.......as time passes , the history of cars and there owners becomes more "MUDDY" and unclear.......so that in a few generations , probally won't matter if a 67 vette has a resatmped motor or not...it just won't be worth the effort or the possiblility fo truely knowing 30 years from now.

I think the trend will be for people to buy a collectable car for what it is NOW and not what it could have possibly have been long ago.

Younger buyers may be just happy to have a LS6 corvette period and not worry about if it is original or not. All that worry sort of takes the fun out of ownership for them I feel. From feedback I've heard.

Oh well the corvette community has brought all this greed /decite and worry upon themselves......

 

The problem is that good restamps are also easy to come by and can fool 99.9% of the experts. Looking at one or two or a hundred stamps does not make one an expert and no individual stamp can be held up and used as an example of what they should all look like. No two were identical back then, they certainly aren't now.

 

Thanks Mike!
You are exactly correct, after a third look today in better light the "C" is actually a "0" and these is a V in front of the stamping as well. My car still has all of it's original equipment and between the A/C compressor & bracket, diverter valve and AIR pump it is almost impossible to get a clear shot at these stampings.
Thanks again for the clarification,
Scott

 

Thanks everyone for posting good information and opinions. Hopefully this thread will help some others in the future.

This car has the correct tachometer, console plate, no AC, correct tranmission #, incorrect engine pad numbers. The car ran great, drove great and the paint looked 9 out of 10. I didn't know to look for no return fuel line, BB hood altered for LT1, HD yokes, etc.

I personally do not care so much about the originality of the motor but I do care about paying what something is worth and not getting screwed. I really don't appreciate being lied to.

I will file a complaint with the AG because the owner is clearly engaging in fraudulent behavior. I have yet to hear back from the owner and I don't expect to.

 

What exactly did they say that constitutes fraud??