Tom,

OK but is it 'matching numbers'? That's the only thing them idiot judges look for, they just don't know what it means or how to find it. My daily beater has individual temp controls for each side with a digital readout in 1/2 degree increments. Today, both sides were the same setting. Is that considered 'matching numbers'? I'm new at this.

 

Without getting too technical "matching numbers" is when the vin tag number on the dash matches the registration. In judging if the numbers don't match, they subtract the last three digits of the larger from the last four digits of the lower. I'm sure 7T1vette can explain it better.

Mike, you seem to know alot about scoring things. Why in Basketball do they not give ANY points if the ball hits the rim but does not go in? You think you should get SOMETHING for a good effort that comes close.

I'm off tho the Westminster Dog show with my mutt. I am sure that I can convinse them I deserve Best of Show because he is very lovable and loyal.

 

Well, Forum...you have just witnessed the latest "Alphonse & Gaston" act before your very eyes.

Here's the deal, boys. I offer an opinion on a [supposedly] "open" forum. I didn't mention Mike Ward or any other NCRS member by name. No, it was Mike Ward who "called me out". I guess because my opinion was too close to home...or he was embarrassed...or who really cares what his reason is. So, The Tom and Mike show can have its fun, and throw its stones. But, you are just digging a deeper hole for what kind of "folks" make up the establishement of NCRS. So, by all means, keep it up...it just makes my case.

 

Mike,

I'd like to say I'm an NCRS member, have been for many years and I support the organization. I have been to many meets (at least one a year). I have had my cars judged 3 times (most NCRS members never have their car judged once). So I have a fair understanding of how the system works. I have to disagree with your points count on BC/CC paint. My car has such a paint job and I'm proud of how it looks....I refuse to make it look like a typical factory job. The point deduct I received at a regional was 17 for body color (comment "Standard Deduct"), 45 point deduct for paint originality and 40 point deduct for condition (comment "Over Restored"). That's a total of 102 points just for paint (not 45 pts). To minimize what 7T1vette is trying to say does a disservice to those reading this. He has valid points that many NCRS members also have and to single him out as not having a clue in my opinion is just wrong.

 

Actually, yes. The cars were shipped with a wax film as protection. The receiving dealer was supposed to buff it out or remove it as part of Chevrolet new car preparation.

I value your responses and your opinions, 7T1, but sit back and catch your breath. Purchase the NCRS judging manual and read the criteria concerning paint. Simple as that.

 

Mike, I would have had no problem with any of this had it not been for the personal attack by Mike Ward. Any time he is challenged he chooses to berate whoever presents an opinion he doesn't like. Gettin' tired of it....

 

'Body colour' is judged separately from 'body paint' on the sheets and a car can get full or partial points in one and a complete deduct in the other. In other words had a white car been painted black but the job looked exactly like TFP, it would lose all 'colour' points but keep all 'paint' points. In your case, it sounds like the judges found that your colour was slightly off (they should have explained exactly what at the time) for a partial deduct but found under 'body paint' that in addition to obvious use of clear coat, there had been no attempt to replicate factory finish in the door jambs, hood ledges etc. Had this been done, the standard deduct would have been 50% for paint (22 points) and no deduct for condition.

IOW for a few hours of work to dull things down (can be done temporarily as you know), your 107 point deduction would reduce to 17 + 22 or 39 points.

Please see my rational towards 7T1 below- I do take your point.

An opinion is just that- a subjective belief. If the OP had asked which is better- blue or orange t shirts then yes I'd have no business getting on your or anybody's case.

The OP asked how body paint judging works in NCRS. I gather he wants to know in order to help guide him in making a paint choice for his car. The last thing he wants is someone shooting from the hip with how they think it might work. You, once again despite previous requests to stop, stated some information (clearly not expressed just as an opinion) in a factual manner that was, and is, absolutely incorrect.

Here was my response:

With all due respect- I seem to recall that you're not active in the NCRS. If I'm confusing you with someone else, my apologies.

Clear coat that's detected is a complete, 100% deduction.

That's a personal attack? Give me a break. Without cutting pasting all the 'he said/she said', please re-read all the following posts where you (once again) turned a simple, straightforward question into a platform for your misinformed NCRS bashing. If someone's getting tired of something, the hating is getting real old. Give it a rest. We all know that you despise the NCRS, get over it.

What I can't figure out, without coming up with a theory that you deliberately do this to create controversy, is why you repeatedly attempt to answer any question about the NCRS or judging? Maybe I've answered my own question...........

 

I am with Mike WArd and 7t1 is wrong, wrong and more wrong on several things By the way, i am a member of ncrs (also other car stuff) and DO NOT plan to have my car judged since I like it my way..ncrs people are great, maybe dinky number are jerks but so it is in ANY club or organization of any type. ncrs is a major reason people can get so many repo parts today. I know this because I have been in corvette world since 1970 and have owned 10 thus far including my c5 zo6. Maybe we should be thankful that uninformed people who don't want to be informed stay out of ncrs and maybe should get out of cars altogether. this is my 2 cents only and you are free to think as you like and not like me since I don't care about that either. I enoy cars from top flight ncrs to heavy modded street rods, all true car people do with most having a preference of type. cheers.

 

You all sound like a bunch of petty old farts.

 

but still younger than the average new car C6 owner. it's become the Buick of our genreation. Just in case some of you think this is serious IT A'INT.

 

Possibly- but let's say the OP dropped $10K on a BC/CC paint job based upon bad advice received here and then got a complete deduct in judging. Don't think he'd agree that it was 'petty'. On the other hand, asking NCRS type questions here instead of on the NCRS site is just setting out bait for the bashers. It's not as bad as it used to be, most of them have drifted away.

 

I traded my 63 Buick for my Vette

 

 

I am an NCRS member and their assistance has been invaluable as I restore my 70 convertible.

My problem with paint is that since todays lacquer is chemically far different from what was available in the day that there should be far more leeway in judging paint. Today's lacquer is just not very good and will not hold up unless car is in a totally controlled environment. I always strive to keep mine as close to factory as anyone who has read my past posts will attest.

I wish they would judge based on currently available materials. Correct Comfort weave seat material is not available just like original lacquer formulas are no longer available. (Thank you EPA)

All of the Top Flight Corvettes I have ever seen are WAAAAY nicer than they were new. It just seems the paint is an easy target for deducts.

Yes I painted mine with BC/CC and yes I get frustrated that I would likely receive a full deduct since it is just too nice. If I could have obtained lacquer like was used back in the day I would have chosen lacquer. I knew it was a deduct from the NCRS board before I painted.

All that being said, NCRS is an invaluable resource and the vast majority of the people are just regular Joes with a love for corvettes.

As long as I own my Corvette I will be a member.


Bill

 

Skilled painters have little difficulty making today's paint jobs using today's materials look just like factory originals. There's little justification to relax the rules accordingly.

If you chose instead to paint your car to today's production standard of zero orange peel and a ten foot deep glossy shine, why should it not take a deduct?

It's a hard decision to choose factory original cr*p over a concours type finish, but it's still the owners choice.

 

This thread has been an interesting read on many fronts.

 

I have about 10 - $15k reasons that I would choose to not have the crappy factory like paint So yes I chose a path that I knew would not be accepted. I would still like it relaxed so we can agree to disagree.

You should still be able to Top Flite with shiny door jambs. I have been told you can not Top Flite with a full paint deduct. Love to hear it is not true.

They relax most all the other judging standards as all of the Top Flite cars I have ever seen have far nicer chassis and engine compartments than the factory EVER produced. This is almost always overlooked.

The funny thing is that even lacquer was not all that dull before buffing and you could read the hands on a clock once buffed out. God forbid the dealer prep may have included buffing out the jambs and fixing some of the crappy factory paint. There was a thread on the NCRS site saying this may have happened since we know how corvette guys can be.

If you ask three different judges how dull is dull , they will have three different opinions.

Bottom line is the paint judging is very subjective at best.

I know of one instance where a 72 Bryar Blue Convertible was restored. When restored they used the unfaded color in the jambs and behind the door panel to achieve a perfect match. Car went to judging and a deduct was taken for the color match. They based it on an original paint car that was 40 years old. Do you think that just maybe even under the best circumstances that the 40 year old paint may have faded?

I don't think I have ever seen a deduct for incorrect comfort weave. Thank goodness because that is all that is available.

I still love NCRS so please just consider this one more opinion.

 

I just joined this forum and the NCRS a couple months ago. Why? Because I have wanted a Chrome bumper Corvette since 1972 and I didnt know where to begin. Now that I finally have one and have been trying to figure out how this whole Corvette mentality works, I have come to the conclusion that the NCRS likely isnt for me - yep they scared me off. All I want to do is drive and enjoy my new old car. I get much more if that type info from posters here. Far less "interpretation' as suggested above and much more reality

The post above from 7T1 is about as clear and precise as the average newbie sees it - but just wont tell you "cult" guys. THANKS 7T1 (and thanks for the PM advice the past few weeks - you have a good handle on these cars)

 

Well- some good news:

A car can still Top Flight with a complete deduct on paint. There's no rule that says it can't. A car can also Top Flight with a NOM too, contrary to internet legend.

If you re-read my post above where I mentioned judging three cars, all of them ended up Top Flighting, even the recent resto with the deduct on paint.

On the other hand:

I think you're not up to speed on the purpose of the award and how the rules actually work. The goal is to hit the bulls eye on 'appears typical of factory production'. If an owner misses the target either by choice or by lack of effort, should he still get the same award as the guy that did make the effort? That's not fair to the other guy. Frankly, I wouldn't want such an award if it was that easy to win. It's not a 'no child left behind' sort of deal

As to deducts for chassis, seat material etc. possibly there were deducts taken but they did not total enough to knock the owner out of Top Flight territory. I know of no area where the rules are 'relaxed' to overlook 'not typical' appearance. Possibly the points allocation in the particular area is not big enough to make much difference. Since the judging sheets are the property of the owner after the meet is finished, only he would know what actually got deducted and not somebody sitting on the sidelines guessing.

Some people get bent out of shape that a burnt out dash lamp carries the same deduct as a bad VIN on the engine pad (a feature that would mean that the car is a NOM) and that it should be a huge deduct. Other people demand that the engine numbers not be judged at all as to do so just encourages counterfeiting.

My suggestion to you and others would be that you go out and help judge a car at a meet and learn how the rules and point allocations work. The judging sheets can be downloaded from the NCRS site by members and non-members alike.

http://www.ncrs.org/membership/scoresheets.html

 

Its called "Corvette Queering" my friend.



Worked for an outfit many yrs ago that did concours restorations on C1 and C2, holy crap. They would spend half a day hunched over a bolt queering out over a marking and fighting over plating.
Buncha Weirdos