Bob, waking up today I think you might get away with mounting the ECU on the inside driver's side somewhere and drill that 2" hole not far away from the Original fuse box. If you mount the O2 sensor on the left exhaust pipe. What about in front of the radiator with a bracket to the shroud? This way you will only need to extend the battery cable harness? If I see your engine compartment it looks like that's one of a few options left.
Tanks inc does sell a roll over protection check valve you connect with a hose to a nipple on the tank. As I bought the Tanks inc efi replacement tank I got a vent port on the fuel pump module which I will connect to the LH vent fuel line to the canister. This way I should have a closed venting fuel system.
Why did you buy the linkage 20-122?
Nick

 

Hello Nick, Well I pulled the trigger and ordered all the above mentioned stuff. While waiting for everything to arrive I think it is in my best interest to get a Honey Do list completed. I also looked at several distributors including the DUI. I think for the most part any of them would work just fine and with dependability. I also agree with Solid LT1, keeping the ECM away from a header pipe is or should be mandatory.

I will have to pull my passenger side header and side pipes off to weld in the bung once I get everything. That hopefully will be the most intense labor part. I have fuel line left over from the ole PJIII project so that and some new AN6 fittings should be all I need to plum in fuel. I intend on making this as clean a set-up as possible. My unit is the polished unit not the gray one. I'll post up pictures and narrative when the time comes. Most likely won't start on it for a couple of weeks. Daughters A/C compressor in her car died and so another job to get done. Can't live here in FL without A/C you know.

What did you decide to use for fuel regulator? I thought about the C5 filter/reg but would have had to re-do lots of stuff. I also am not going to use the transducer unit to monitor fuel pressure. I have read it is really only to monitor fuel pressure on the hand-held anyway and other than that does nothing. I will use a liquid filled gauge on the regulator and call it a day.

As for syncing the distributor. I have read the instructions several times. Then I went to MSD web site read their version, and of course how it is done on other units to include the FITech instructions. They all read basically the same. Take your time and I am sure it will come out just fine. My initial timing is very happy at 18 degrees. I think as long as the distributor is set at (mine) 18 degrees and the balancer is at 18 degrees it should be fine. Once engine is at temp then check hand-held to make sure it agrees with the timing mark of 18 degrees. They want to bring the RPM up to about 2K to check this because of EMI or something. Page 24 and 28 is the key. I agree it is a little confusing. Go to Holley web site and I think there is more info on doing this procedure. I'll also research it and see what else I can find. I also ordered the Holley linkage because I want all throttle blades opening and closing the same. I have never been fond of the metal link bar that Holley uses that you have to bend this way or that to sync the primaries and secondaries. Just my preference from tuning Holley carbs for a long time.

By the way, the Holley EFI forum is good also. I have read several posts and most issues are very easy to correct. Not saying there are lots of issues but the ones that come up are very correctable. Thanks again for sharing everything. Bob

 

Some additional information on the timing. Here is a thread on the Holley Forum that might help. I have seen some youtube videos as well. After reading everything it looks like the small cap GM HEI has a built in 10 degree. So following that, I guess seting the number one cylinder at 10 degrees on compression stroke, then inserting the distributer, lining up the rotor with number one cylinder and locking down. Then run the engine and then look at the hand-held and rotate distributor as necessary to have the timing reading on the engine (timing marks on the balancer) the same as the hand held. As stated on page 24, figure 56, ignition timing is adjusted on the hand held the you would turn the distributor to sync the engine; i.e. timing marks on the balancer. This is my humble understanding of it.

Here is the thread:
http://forums.holley.com/showthread....tributor-setup

I'll keep looking. I did not know the GM HEI small cap dist had 10 degree's in it already. Hmmmmmm.

 

Bob, thanks I didn't know that either I'll turn it back down 2° so it's at 10° and follow the sync procedure. I didn't want a fuel pump and filter mounted somewhere on the frame rail and decided on a in tank setup. That's why I need to swap out my gas tank. The C5 filter regulates pressure to 59 psi so I wanted a perfect reading of the pressure to change the value with the handheld hence the transducer. I'll be mounting the C5 filter/regulator either on the frame rail next to the tank so I'll need 3 efi hoses or have a bracket welded on the tank, bend a metal supply and return fuel line to the regulator and with a efi hose to the frame rail original fuel line (so needing only one hose at the rear) in the engine compartment I'll have a efi hose from the frame rail line to the throttle body. I already have 6AN swagelok fittings on both ends of the fuel line. I'll be ordering the efi hoses from pegasus. They have the teflon lined ones and make them custom to length with the fitting you choose (straight, angled, swivel etc). I used them for my previous PJIII install and the quality was top notch.
Nick

 

Got all my stuff yesterday. Jegs is so fast. Still have some other stuff to get done before I start the EFI install. Thought I would explain a little more about the linkage. I opened the box for the Terminator and checked out the throttle body. If I pull back the throttle linkage slightly the primary blades start to move but nothing on the secondaries. Pull back a little more and still nothing on the secondaries. Then finally all four blades are moving. Now might not sound like much but this is air flow. I learned this a long time ago working with Holley carburators and I see no difference in the throttle body. Meaning, If I adjusted the idle stop screw on a Holley carb, it usually only moved the primary blades. Lots of complaints about lag when getting into the throttle, well this is because it gets fuel then goes way lean. Watched this happen on the A/F gauge. So anytime I made an adjustment of the idle screw, I also did the same for the secondary blades. All should be open the same. This is not supposed to be progressive which is exactly what the I am seeing on the Terminator. So to correct a potential issue right off I will use the linkage so that any adjustment of the idle screw will affect the primary and secondary the same. Hope all that makes sense. This is very pronounced on a dual plane manifold like I am using, don't know about the effect on a single plane. Check out your unit. Pull back the throttle linkage and watch how far the primaries move before the secondaries start to move. 2 injectors for the front, 2 for the back, all firing the same so this can't be good. Air flow different front front and rear. The cure is to just bend the link rod but I prefer to be more precise and not have to worry about it anymore. I am not an expert by any means but I do know this will cause issues. The Holley site even goes to great lengths to explain this in one of the PDF's on carburetors. Basically I want everything moving the same. Anyway that is the purpose of the link that I got. I'll try and get some pictures up later. Another way to see how much the difference in opening is, is to hold a light under the unit, look at the blades and the barrels. pull open the throttle linkage and look at the difference in light coming through the primaries and secondaries.(This would also be a good way to bend the link rod to get things closer if you need to.) Hope that helps. Bob

 

Thanks For the explanation Bob. I did notice the sam that there's a delay between the primary and secondary blades. I'll leave it as it is now and see if I get a lean or stumble when I put my foot down.
Got most of the things done under the hood, just need to solder the 12v and tach wire to the coil terminal and the fan ground trigger wire.
The harness is routed from the ECU on the inner fender around the blower motor under the hood latch


It then runs parallel with the heater cover


It then drops down next to the heater cover almost to the transmission. This was done to keep it as far away from the distributor and to take up some slack.


Distributor and live wires installed, connectors pointing to the driver's side because the harness distributor and coil are in this area



The area just behind the LH valve cover is a rats nest. You have the main connector, distributor connector, O2 wire and all the loose wires coming out of the bundle
The red/white (12v in run and crank), 12v for fuel pump directly to battery are passes through the standard grommet inside the cab. The red/white is connected to the fuse panel terminal.
The ground coming out of the bundle is connected to the original tach filter boss on the manifold. The terminal (yellow in second picture) is shared with another ground wire to the coil.




Fuel pump fuse double side taped to the firewall. Didn't feel like drilling.
So far I made 5 holes in the firewall. 1 for the battery cable harness, 1 to add a wire clamp holding the harness and 3 to mount the coil.


The coil wire is pretty short but there's some slack to compensate for engine rotation. The spark plug wires and boots are stiff and thick so they are hard to route nicely. Looking back I would choose a standard coil and wires. Got new spark plugs gapped to 0.06 and installed. We'll see...


Hood closing test with a 14"x3" drop base air cleaner : alu foil and even compressed.


Hood closing test for the coil. Alu foil is compressed but there's just under 1/2" clearance


Now it's tank drop time
Nick

 

Hi Nick, You are making great progress. More than I am. I have stuff laid out to see what little things I will need. Have to pick up a few 6AN fittings to route the fuel line like I want it. Still not really got a good plan for the mounting of the MSD 6AL, the ECM, the external coil (MSD) and the fuel regulator. Not a lot of room under the hood to keep theses things away from each other to limit EMI. Still have to drop my passenger header for the 02 bung welding. Like you I am using the small cap HEI electronic distributor. Noted I did not have a connector for the coil side. Figured out the connector is the same as a coolant tempt sensor for a GM. Very common. Used a 90 Camero with V8 to buy mine. BWD part number PT191 works just fine. I hope I'm not breaking any forum rules using part numbers and such. This is how I found lots of stuff for other projects without doing hours of research.

Won't start on mine for a couple of weeks yet. Have a 600 mile road trip to take and will wait until afterwards to put it all together. Keep up the great work and posts. My good news is my fuel stuff is already done so no dropping of the tank. By the way I have my fuel pump running through a relay and also through a toggle switch on the inside on the console. This is to disable the pump while I do other things and hopefully not because of a accident, but it is there if needed. Yah I know, worthless without a picture. Bob

 

Bob, are you going to use a inertia switch to cut off power to the fuel pump in case of a accident?
I'm reconsidering powering the fuel pump directly with the green wire and use a relay switched by the green wire.
Thanks
Nick

 

Hello Nick. I will be using a toggle switch that I already have in place to cut the fuel pump. I agree we need some sort of fuel cut-off in case of an accident. I sometimes run some tests with the key on but don't want the pump running, thus the toggle switch. It is activated through a 12vt switched source then to the relay that gets its 12 volts from a constant source, if that makes sense. Everything protected. Toggle switch is 20 AMP breaker, also run the 12 volt source to the relay through a in-line fuse.

Went away for the weekend on a 656 mile trip with the 68. (The C5 Sport Seats are a God-Send.) Average 21.3 MPG with my ole 670 Avenger. (Have a TKO 600 overdrive). Now that the trip is over will start getting to work on the Terminator. Hoping for some mileage gains as well as some performance. Lots of folks have said carbs better for HP but I'm not racing the car just want timing and fuel better control. As long as I stayed out of a hard throttle mileage was not bad. Friend has a C6 and he was barely getting 20 MPH. Told him we need to do some looking and maintenance on that thing. The C7's were getting 29-31 MPG depending on the car and equipment. I know this has nothing to do with the Terminator but thought I would just throw it out there. Fuel injection in my humble opinion with the timing control is a great way to go. Kind of done messing with carbs. Hope your project is going well. Got to get going on mine, looking forward to getting all those boxes out of my spare bedroom. (So is the wife)

Guess I will find out.

Looks like some members are having success with the FITECH system on another thread. I'm glad to see that even though like you I went with the Terminator. Good to see there are some choices out there, just depends on your individual preference.

 

So why are you converting to FI with such fuel milage ? those are pretty impressive nr's!
No, like you I'm tired of fiddling with carbs and distributors. More so because I lack the knowledge and hands on knowledge can't be learned from a book.
I ended up ordering the inertia switch,and a fuel pump harness (relay triggered by green wire). Should arrive monday. Still waiting on the Dakota Digital gauges so work has grinded to halt the fuel tank I have removed and the new one has been prepped. Once installed I can order my teflon fuel lines. I can only hope I have no leaks or I will be the dropping the tank again.
Today I'm just sobbing because my holiday is over
Nick

 

Hello Nick. I had to do a lot of trail and error, jet changing an so on to get those kinds of MPG numbers. I also swapped out a rear end from a 70 something big block that 3:08. Now that with the 5 speed gets me cruising at about 2K RPM at 75 MPH. I really wanted a 3:36 rear but could not find one at the time. Got a great deal on this 3:08 and after removing the cover and inspecting it, I just put all new seals in it and use synthnic oil with additive. Same stuff used on BMW M cars. Never a chatter or anything. The 5 speed has a 3:25 first gear so that is fine, Im not racing it anyway. Will bark the tires in second and third if wound up enough. LOL. Wanted a cruiser that could run with the C5,6,7"s without having to stop for gas every 100 miles. I tried the PJIII a few years ago and after going through several tanks of fuel trying to get it right I failed. Perhaps to aggressive a cam and so on at the time. All of that has changed now so still wanted the advantage of FI and the ignition controlled through the FI system. So, this is the reason for FI. I know not a real good reason, my wife does not think so anyway, but my 68 has been a work inprogress since I got it. Okay now for some updating.

 

I received my system and as you know it is well packaged and everything is there. As I stated eariler, I went with a small cap HEI for ignition, a MSD coil, and an Aerimotive regulator. I have the system on the car now minus the electrical. Because I already had a electric fuel pump installed I was able to plum in all the fuel lines and stuff, check fuel flow and pressure and leaks. There were some issues I had to overcome however. Nothing is a simple bolt on as you know.

--Where to mount the fuel pressure regulator? After several mock up attempts I remembered how the regulator was installed on the PJIII unit. So I made a bracket to attached to the intake maniflod and attached the regulator to it between the in and out ports of the TBI. This really did turn out well and eliminated several problems. Since both my feed and return lines are hard right up to the front of the motor I was able to use almost all the same 6AN fittings I had. (Say for a couple and a cap for one port of the regulator.) Bracket is made from 1/8 thick by 2 in wide alumin stock. Nothing fancy but shins up nice and looks at home with the manifold.

--Not enough clearance for the TBI and the 90 degree vacuum port on the Edelbrook Airgap. They put the vacuum outlet so high on the runner that you have to use a spacer (or plug it and drill and tap another hole down farther on the runner for vacuum.) I had to use a 1/2 spacer with he 670 Avenger otherwise the secondary float bowl would hit. Fortunatly I had a none metal 1 inch spacer left from a previous job and it worked fine. Glad I also kept the 4 longer studs to attach the TBI. (other job was a different manifold and was experiencing a bad heat soak that was boiling fuel in the carb. This spacer eliminated that problem.)

--Had to pull the full manifold vacuum plug from the driver front side of the TBI. I needed that for the PVC. The one in the rear is for my only vacuum operated acc which is the headlights. The vacuum source on the maifold is for my brakes. I just happen to have a threaded vacuum nipple that fit perfectly where I removed the full manifold plug in the front of the TBI. PVC is all plumed in and no issue. I think Holley gave us another source for full manifold vacuum in the front just for situations like this.

--Pulled the passenger side header after marking the location of where the 02 bung would go. Side pipes look great but are a PIA to get off along with the removal of the header. Oh yes, had to remove all the A/C brackets as well to get the header out. Almost a all day job to weld in a 02 bung but the nasty deed is done.

--Given lots of thought to location of ECM and stuff. It will go into the engine compartment. I will relocate the MSD6 box to the driver side well and put the ECM in it's place. I do not have a vacuum canister for wiper door operation because I don't have a wiper door. I have a long L88 style hood with cowl box molded in. The plate I made to mount the MSD Box a long time ago is almost a perfect match to mount the ECM so that should not have to be an all day job. LOL.

Making progress, just going slower than normal and really trying to think things through so I don't have to do it twice.

I'll try and get some photos up that kind of show the before and after done so far. Please forgive me if It seems like I am highjacking your thread. I'm sharing my experience with you. Our Vettes are slightly different years and as such present different challenges.

Bob

 

Current set up with 670 Avenger



Current location of MSD Box



Current location of fuel pressure reg for carburator

 

These are after I mounted the Terminator so I could figure out the fuel delivery and return.



It is not as messey as it looks. Gauge is easly read and adjusted. Does not interfer with cowl box in hood.



Looking at it from the drivers side.

A look at the spacer I used



Spacer is the black block between the manifold and TBI. Worked out well for clearance issues of manifold vacuum outlet.

And this is the manifold outlet issue. I was not going to drill and tap into this manifold. I think the block will not hurt a thing.



This is the smallest 90 degree vacuum fitting I could find. Why they put it so high on the runner creates so many issues.

Header back on and you can now see the 02 sensor in place.



02 sensor on passenger side. Still have my wideband on the drivers side hooked up and can monitor on my gauge. side to side comparission will be interesting but i expect some differences for a multitude of reasons. Just hope both sides are close.

Well thats it for now. I'll continue to update as I get things moving. Up next is relocation of some stuff and wiring install. Should be fun!!

 

One of these days I'll figure out how to put the caption with the picture. Sorry.

 

No Hijacking at all. Seems interest for the Terminator on this forum is minimal, so I love to see what you come up with as solutions to problems that pop up. Looks like you will have it finished before I do
The manifold vacuum plug close to the carb flange was the reason why I chose the Weiand which puts it further up the runner avoiding clearance issues.
I don't think you'll have head clearance issues with the 1" spacer as the TB is less heigh then a carb.
I as well pulled the plug from the front manifold vacuum fitting and use it for my PCV. The rear one is brake booster only, the intake fitting is headlights & heater controls.
I would consider putting the ECU on the inner wheel well (if I read correctly you are relocating the MSD box to the wheel well and put the ECU on the firewall). The wiring harness is very long and stiff so you might have difficulties to take up the slack when everything that needs to be connected to the harness is so close to the ECU.
My wife send me teaser pics. First day back at work and my gauges have arrived. Now I don't have a excuse anymore to finish the mods ...
Nick

 

Hello Nick. First off the gauges look great. They will be a very nice addition to your Vette. I was thinking they might be the 3-in-one VHX. Those are what I am considering should I really deside to modify the center concole and either go with a I-Pad or Nav screen. Right now I have all electronic gauges (factory type, changed the faces to 68 color, and am using blue LED's to light everything up.) Looks way cool and is easy on the eyes.

I see from re-looking your pictures the location of the vacuum port on the Weiand. Already had the Edelbrock so no point in another manifold unless I could not get this to work.

Where my MSD box is now it never gets wet, heat is not an issue and it is easy access. It is an older type, not digital like the newer ones but works great. Only issue and it is really not an issue is the location of the rev limiter plug. On the Terminator I think I read where you can set the rev limit but need to re-read that part. Anyway that is the reason I am looking at that location (firewall) for the ECM.

The driver's side well area has a small aftermarket vacuum tank in it. I removed the stock rather large tank a couple of years ago. The smaller one is only required for headlights and not other vauum need. Chrome canister of course. :-)

So I have plenty of room in the well area but the drawback is all four of the gill vents are open. I did that to help extract the engine compartment heat. The gill closest to the door is not realy open as it is just an opening for the fresh air vent which I don't use because of how the Vintage auto air is set up. Only thing I am concerned about is the area can get wet if washing the car and spraying in that direction and it does pick up a little moisture when in the rain. Not a lot mind you just a little minor spray, not a direct flow from a tire or something like that. I also have my other 02 sensor in the drivers side header and routed to the gauge mounted on a pillar pod. I really don't want to mess with that. I'm not sure if the 02 cable would stretch from the passenger side to the drivers side if I mounted the ECM in the drivers well area. Then I would have to get the extention cable.

I'm not totally done thinking it through yet. I see your point about the length of some parts of the cable. If this was not a Corvette it would be a piece a cake to get it all installed.

Thanks for sharing your idea's. They make me think about more options for stuff. I'm going to try and get a little more done very soon. I have the cable kind of stretched out to take the "curl" out of it so it is easier to position.

Are you going to use the "red" 12 volt wire that the instructions say are for the fuel pump and injectors with your ineria switch? Not talking about the main wires to the battery.

By the way, If I had to do it over, your fuel tank set-up looks great and is the way to go.

You probably mentioned this somewhere but what year is your Vette?

Hope all is well and hello from sweltering Florida.

 

Heya,
It's a 74 coupe.
The tank really is nice and of good quality. The only thing I dislike is the banana piece over the recessed sender and tank area to get the original strap shape. It will be a pain to install it correctly but we'll see. I'll probably put my tank on the ground and use some temp push lock hose to see if I have no leaks during priming.

The red wire should go to a constant 12V source, it's the power for the injectors & pump. So I'm going to route it to the battery.
The green wire can be used to power the fuel pump but then there's no safety in case of a accident and the engine starts running. That's why I chose to have the green wire route through the inertia switch and use it as a ground trigger for a relay which will switch a wire coming from the battery to the fuel pump. I'll probably install the inertia switch and relay in the rear storage tray and drill a whole through the fiberglass and run the wire along the frame rail over the rear wheel.
I made a simplified schematic representation for the terminator & Dakota digital harnesses so in a few months/years I still know what I did. Still have to add the wire colors.
Nick

 

Hello Nick, Well made some very good progress this last weekend. First, the ECM. I made a mounting plate for it and mounted it in the engine compartment, just to the right of the radiator. It is attached to the fender well actually. Looks right at home there. Cables are easy to get to and it will stay high and dry and no heat issues. Also no EMI issues as well. (I have some pic's just need to get them posted). Almost all wiring is complete. All connections are soldered and heat wrapped. Put the MSD box back to where I had it before. Still need to safety wire the fuel pump (green) lead to my toggle switch inside. Have not pulled the current distributor out just yet. I wanted to wait until I was closer to start up because I will try to keep as much lube on the cam gear as possible.
I researched a little more on the sync timing thing. Here is what I plan on doing after reading several other posts. Syncing the distributor is really not that hard.
I put the engine on 18 degrees initial. This is where I have had it with the carb.
(I may back it down a little depends on how it acts with the TBI)
Now it is just a matter of making sure the new cap is marked where number one wire will be. Put the distributor in and check for gear clearance making sure the distributor does not bottom out. (may not be all that critical but I do it so I don't have excessive gear wear).
Make sure the rotor is pointing to the number one position. make sure distributor is turned so the reluctor and contact are directly across from each other. Now that everything is lined up, make sure wires are in the proper firing order for a SBC.
Don't mess with anything else until after the engine is at temp then check the initial settings with a timing gun and make sure they match the setting you put in the hand-held. May have to bring the rpm up a little to around 2K to do this last step. Now to make sure the initial is matching the hand-held you simply loosen the distributor and rotate until the initial on the engine is where you want it. Then lock it down and you are done.

I may have given you some bad information before about a small cap already having 10 degrees in it. I don't think that was correct. I will take some pic's when I stab the new distributor so hopefully this will make sense. By the way, the procedure in the FITech manual is spot on as well as several other TBI units instructions. I am not using the MSD adjustable rotor. I think you need the MSD billet distributor to use it. Nice feature for syncing but not necessary.
More to come as soon as I get a little more time. Looking forward to the start-up.

 

Good news! You're getting close to firing it up
That's exactly the thing I don't get. For example you set the balancer at 20° and line up the nr. One. I don't think you can enter timing parameters with the handheld. Then when warm and at 2000 rpm you look at the handheld what timing it's showing and then you dial the timing by turning the distributor untill the timing mark on the balancer shows the same as what the hand held says. Would this mean at 2000 rpm you have 20° + what the hand held says?
I still have to order fuel lines and perhaps new plug wires, coil and GM module. I don't like how the DUI wires fit. I would prefer custom wires 90° short boots and about 1' of coil wire. I just don't know where or what part nr would fit my need. I've never crimped generic plug wires and if that would need special tools I don't have them.
I guess i'll wait till you do the first startup with regards to the timing still got a weekend of dakota digital gauges and interior install to do
Nick

Edit, just reread the manual and you can change timing with the handheld. My engine was happy at around 15° so I'll restab the distributor