Good for u. Awesome to read car is running well now.

Just thought i could add something about the FPR. The way they control press is by engine vac or an easier way to watch this is absolute press. When the engine is at idle the manifold may read the its highest vac reading but that is actually the lowest absolute press. Vac press is just a measure of press below atmospheric. So that hi vac reading is actually a low press reading. Note this creates a higher press differential across the injector(s). So With 56psi fuel press there is a 56psi to the fuel rail plus say 16"Hg press across the injector. Well 2"Hg is 'bout 1 psi then u really have 56+8=64psi across the injector at idle. Now as the throttle blade opens the intake manifold vac reading may/will decrease but the absolute press is increasing. Since the absolute press increases the total press differential across the inject is less/decreasing. That is why the fuel press has to increase with loweing vac (increasing absolute press) to maintain the correct press differential across the injector. So if vac reading goes down by 8"Hg (which = 4psi absolute) your regulated fuel press needs to increase by 4psi to maintain the same flow for the same (programmed) injector pulse width.

Hope this helps.

 

Thank you Cardo for the heads up and explanation about the fpr, it sounds very logical. On the other hand, I'm running the Corvette C5 filter/regulator mounted on the tank so I only have the supply line going to the engine compartment. The filter/regulator should be self regulating at 57 psi. There's a input return and output connection, so no vacuum reference (system used on the C5 Corvette and also by alot of guys who've done a LS swap. I don't think it's a issue created by obstructions in the lines as everything is new and the tanks inc fuel tank is also frequently used in classics converted to FI.
Guess I'll have some searching to do
Nick

 

Hello Nick. Great to hear you have the Vette running. Does not surprise me to hear that the initial idle was way high. I had the same thing. After correcting the throttle blades and so on it was fine. Just a thought, not sure if you have done it or not. Holley Terminator manual makes a note about fuel pressure so the ECM can make the necessary corrections. Look at page 29 (31.2 Engine setup). You may need to go into the handheld under system setup then to engine setup and make sure the fuel pressure you are using is correctly entered. I have read on the Holley Forum that others are using the C5 regulator without issue. Just have to make sure the fuel pressure setting is correct. Resist the urge to make other adjustments until you have more miles on the car. I have slowed the learn down on mine and will make some other minor adjustments later. Sounds like your Terminator is doing well so far. Bad luck I guess on the spark plug wires being bad. I guess you see what I mean now about the power you did not feel before with the carb. For those out there, I'm not bashing carbs. Mine just keeps getting better and better and yours will too. Again, glad to hear your Vette is running.

Wow, you did clobber your nose. Hopefully it is getting better. Take care and keep driving!!

 

I've searched all over Belgium and nowhere can I find a C5 fuel filter lol. Guess it'll be another order coming from the US. I'm going for the Delco & Wix. The one I got now was unbranded so I hope that is the problem. There's no reason why the psi is so heigh. The regulator should have it constant at 57-58 psi. The few forum threads I found (2actually) where a bad part and the other a restriction in the return plumbing

Another option is to order the Holley FPR and run a hose to the back. I think I could connect a filter and a return hose to the hardlines I've made without dropping the tank. I really don't like running another hose all the way to the back

It's unlikely the new regulator/filter will arrive on Friday so I'm wondering if I should drive the car during the weekend or not as I still got 88% of learning to do. It'll be hard as it was out all summer and we are having some lovely sunny days here
Nick

 

Hello Nick, Might as well try making sure the fuel pressure is at 65 as I mentioned in post 63. I know the system is designed to run at 43 pounds but the computer may compensate if it is higher. Thus the reason for being able to adjust the number in the hand held. Just a thought. Hope you get an opportunity to get more driving in. I'll be putting more miles on mine very soon. The more I drive it the better it gets. Making sure all the pre-startup stuff was done correctly has eliminated multiple issues. Sounds like you have yours under control as well. I don't know what size return line you used from the regulator back to the fuel tank, but if it is not large enough (inside diameter) this may cause some of the high pressure issues. When you finally get the new regulator in and if there is still high pressure then perhaps a closer examination of the return stuff is in order. Keep us posted. Happy driving!

 

Well the C5 FPR has a 5/8 return nipple which goes to a 3/8 AN fitting. From there on I used 3/8 hardline up to the pump bracket's 90° bend. I really think this isn't my problem but when I replace the FPR with a Delco one I'll run a wire through the hardline and or blow on it to check if there's a restriction. I wonder if you can reset the ECU and restart the learning?
I saw 61 pounds and that what's it set at with the handheld, but when I parked the car I saw the 67psi. That's whats bothering me, the changing value which shouldn't happen.
Nick

 

Nick, the manual says you can use the hand held, go to the Wizard and you can start a new tune. I think it will use the base settings you tell it just like starting from the beginning. Now I don't know what it does for a learn table, it may just simply start a new one. Seems to me that it would be a good idea to name and save the tune you have now before starting a new one. Just curious, why a new start-over? Is it because of the fuel pressure item? Is it because you are concerned that the learn tables are way off because of the fuel pressure? I am by no means an expert but I don't think it will have a big effect as you said you have 61 pounds in it now. Unless the engine is doing very bad things or you are over fueling the plugs or something you may want to just keep driving and let it learn. You said it seemed to be doing fine. Why not just wait until after you install the new regulator? I have not looked at the Holley forum on this but don't think it has a hugh impact on run/drive-ability at this time. You would just have to do it again if the new regulator is in fact operating at a much lower pressure. Just a thought. Hope it works out like you want.

 

Bob, I think I'm in a bit of a bind here (posted similair questions on holley forum). Went to the yearly tech inspection and the car passed but I noticed a very rich smell when they where testing. While returning the engine seemed a bit choked. At home I pulled most of the plugs and they are all dry fouled. CL comp is still subtracting fuel. Now I'm just wondering if I should stop acting odd and install a normal regulator, swap spark plugs + oil + restart the wizzard. I can't imagine the fuel tables to be correct with fouled plugs. Can't be good for the engine either as the oil seems to smell like fuel as well. I guess those two bad ignition wires didn't do any good as well.
I suppose the stock fuel return hard line is too small? I'd prefer not to run a hose all the way to the back
What would you suggest?
Cheers
Nick

 

Hello Nick. I am not exactly sure what you mean by dry fouled plugs. Do you mean the color is all white (very lean), some what grayish or tan, (Okay), or kind of blackish (too rich)?
First thing I think I would do is check every connection for a seap of fuel. If the motor is running okay (you said it passed the inspection as well) then my guess would be a fuel leak somewhere. May be just enough to smell up things but evap so quickly that it really goes un-noticed.

As for the return line, NO, the stock return line (the one used for vapor return if equipped with a canister) will not work. I tried it and fuel pressure went very high, the line (5/16 inch inside diameter, or 1/4 don't remember) is to small. What I did was run an 3/8 aluminum line from the engine compartment to the fuel tank. I routed it exactly where the main fuel line went and clamped them together. Worked great. I went with aluminum instead of steel because it was much much easier to work with. The 6AN pressure fittings I used have worked flawlessly. No leaks at all. Been on the car now for about 4 years. I use an external pump. My return line goes back into the fuel tank via a bulkhead 6AN pass-through fitting. Never had a leak.

As for retuning and the such. My thought on that is why not leave everything alone and just go to the A/F target setting and make minor adjutments on that. Everything I read on the sytem indicates that the entire system is trying to achieve the target A/F. If you think it is a little rich then up the target A/F a few tenths and see how the car behaves. (Remember, increasing the number leans the fuel out). I would resist the urge to make major changes at this point. While the car is still learning the target A/F will tell the ECM to make the necessary adjustments. This is going to happen to all the varibles such as coolant temp enrichment, timing, injector pulse and so on. Let the ECM do the work until you are ready to fine tune. Remember, fine tuning is done after the learn area's are populated and you have transfered the learn table to the base table, then look at the fuel graph, smooth out any ridges or dips, then load the new table to the ECM (only after saving the current global table). If the learn table is fully populated (at all the RPM runs you have done) then go to the hand held under fuel learn and set the learn speed to slow. Don't do anything else. Page 27, para 30.2 in the manual. Now just drive the car some more. No uploading of a global table just yet. Let it slow learn for a bit until you can finally almost stop the learn. you will know when no more changes are happing to the learn table, or the changes are very minor. This is why I get the global table after each time I drive the car, to compare the learn tables. May not be the right way but at least I can see what the learning is doing and then decide if I want to load the adjusted global folder or not. If there are nothing more than minor changes being made, which I expect, then it will be time to put the learn table to the fuel table and upload.

You can probably tell I like to keep things simple. I have read where others experience an issue and immediately start making all sorts of changes to the sofeware. In my humble opinion that is not going to correct and solve problems. Whith these systems, you have to taylor them to your particular motor, but only after they have had an opportunity to learn. I will be putting more miles on mine next weekend. the only thing I have done so far is reduce the fuel learn speed and hook up the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator. Sure I have looked at the learn table and the base fuel tables. I have played with the sofeware to get used to it and see what it does, but have made NO changes to the unit itself. My motor is running fine and I think there is some more learning to do anyway. Only have about 117 miles on it. I will feel more comfortable with uploading a fuel table (after applying the learn table) after I have about 200 miles on it. Then go out and drive it and see how it acts. I suspect that it will be fine. While in learn mode, everything I read indicates tyhe system is adding or subtracting fuel to meet the target A/F. I would not be too concerned about that part right now. It is supposed to do that. I have some boxes where it looks like lots of fuel was pulled. If it did I am not concerned because the engine ran great so I would guess that is what is supposed to happen to meet my target A/F.

Really hope you get this sorted out. Go back and recheck everything. Gas smell in oil is not good (especially for bearings) might want to change oil, cheap insurance. Now that you have fixed the bad wires and so on, I humbully think your target A/F and slowing doen the fuel learn speed is the key to making it run better.

Keep us posted.
Regards, Bob

 

Fuel pump, don't use this anymore, use a Walbro 225 mounted in the same place but much better and very quite.
This is the old PJIII pump, very noisey.Made a slightly different mount for the Walbro 225 so it does not hang down so low. Now protected from water from tire and so on.
I]
My fuel return line, looking at it from the drivers side, everything is steel braded and 3/8 aluminum lines with 6 A/N fittings.[/

I]Made a mount that bolts to the intake manifold. No issue with hood clearance, fuel pressure regulator. made it ease to run a vacuum line to it as well.
[I]
A look from the drivers side, fuel pressue regulator, Aeromotive,
You can still see the old HEI distributor.
This was taken when I was mocking up stuff to see how it woud fit and work.[/

IJust showing you how I did it.
Same result, just different set-up. I like to keep things easy as possible to get to and still be reliable.

Happy motoring!

 

I think you're right Bob. Tomorrow I'll change the plugs and oil. The Delco filter/regulator arrives next week so that'll be my next weekend project. I intend to restart the wizard because a) the first 10 miles and during idle tunning the actual fuel pressure wasn't correctly entered and b) I had those two cylinders not firing although on the opposite bank of the O2 sensor.

These are the plugs, top of photo is front of engine, so nr1 spark plug is top left. I feel only two are more or less corrcet (passenger bank) dry fouled meaning not oil fouled as in other engine problems but carbon soot


I don't think its wise to continue self learning with these plugs (they where new) The new ones are the R44LTS (steel Vortec heads) the ones in the picture are the Rapidfire alternative. Don't know it would make a difference.

It's not raw fuel I smell, I'm ver cautious about these things and checked every connection at least 20x but they are all dry
It's the unburned fuel smell that burns your eyes when you are standing behind the car idling.
I wonder if I might have too much advance at idle creating the rich situation or maybe a uncomplete burn because the spark was early?. The specs for the crate engine call for.10°, vacuum advance disconnected. On the handheld I have 24 at idle if I recall correctly but that would be idle + advance?

There was definitly a difference in how the car was runnin last weekend (pretty smooth) and yesterday (rich smell) and slughish like you have manual choke pulled out with engine hot (still remember that from my very first car a VW Polo many moons ago lol)
It didn't stall or bogged, kept perfect idle with not much shacking, did restart instantly every time when hot (about 5 times in in 15 mins with alot of idling in between at the technical inspection).

Guess that's my action plan i'm not let down or lost faith as I know how good it ran, just have some small hickups with one inflicted by myself by not installing a normal regulator but the corvette FPR

Nick

 

Hello Nick. I see what you mean about the plugs now. Hoping for fouled plug(s) to come back is not a good plan so changing them is in order. Burning of the eyes is definately a over rich condition. From the looks of your plugs I can see why. (interesting to see that a few of the plugs in the picture look very lean, real white looking, could be just from very little run time however.
The timing at idle is fine. I think the hand held shows 20 something on mine at idle as well. Check your distributor to make sure it has not moved if you think there might be an issue. I don't think so however. If it did you will need to resync it. Remember after syncing, all other timing adjustments are on the hand held. You had it running good before the wires went bad so I suspect it is fine.

The only other part that is a little concerning is the 02 sensor. Not trying to alarm you but if the 02 is not happy it will tell the ECM to do things it should not be doing, i.e. adding fuel. Just for checking purpose, pehaps it might me a good idea to pull the 02 and see if it is loaded up with carbon from the plugs that were not firing. If it is don't sweat it, here is a little trick I learned to clean them. I know others will say you can't clean them and so on but I have done this several times to 02's with no after issues. Only use brake cleaner and a rag to clean off the carbon. Brake cleaner will clean as well as evaporate quickly without harming the 02. Don't soak the 02 in it ust spray it a few times and let it drip the carbon out. This is a lot cheaper than buying a new 02. Your 02 may look like your plugs. If it does then the effectivness of it is deminished. Not saying it still does not work. Remember to coat the treads with some anti-seige before putting it back in. Anyway, just a thought. Theses systems are very sensitive about the 02.
I have non vortec Dart heads (aluminum) so the type of plug I use is different than yours. Another thought, use the same heat range as you have now or whatever the manufacture says use. You may have to change later but depends on a lot of city or hiway driving. Mine is kind of mixed so I use a middle of the road heat range. Basially what Dart said to use.

Keep the faith!! I went out to the garage after the car was sitting for two weeks. Turned the key and let the fuel pump prime, she fired right up. When you get these little ankle biters fixed you will have a great running machine. Notice how most of the issues are mechanical and have nothing to do with software and so on? Resist the urge to make changes to the software other than reloading the wizard.
Bob

 

Ok. Changed the plugs, oil, oil filter and installed a WIX Corvette C5 fuel filter/regulator. The FPR change was a good test to see if it was a user friendly spot I choose and if I could change it out with the hard lines (see pic previous post). Well I just have enough space between the tank and the rear fiber glass bulkhead. Still took me an hour. No leaks with the new one (happy) but I did drain half the tank (thank you Archimedes). The fuel volume pushes the fuel up through the pump, I thought it would block it. While I was waiting I did bend the link in between primary and secondary throttle shaft so there's just a tad of lag.
Reloaded the stock tune and swapped out the O2 sensor with a holley replacement.
So basically it's a new install .
Time to prime and check fuel pressure. It was at 54 psi. Things are looking up! Recheck for fuel leaks : all's fine!
Hit the key and the engine fires right up although it was struggling for half a minute to stay idling. Sounds logical as the throttle screw was already set the previous time. After a bit the idle became smooth. Rechecked the timing, still good.
Check fuel pressure :56 psi just what would you expect from a Corvette FPR which is also the value entered as the actual fuel pressure. Guess the first generic one wasn't calibrated correctly.
Took it for a spin of about a hour and all seems well. Learning came on at 160F, fan kicks in at 195F. I see it's more subtracting fuel then adding which is something I like. The AFR ratio is close to what is commanded without excessive spikes.
One issue, I can't get the IAC to 2% at idle. It's always zero. If I turn the set screw out it looses contact with the stop on the secondary throttle blade. Again seems normal as I did bend the rod so that's still something I need to get right. I assume it will come to a position where the 1/1 ratio between the throttle baldes is compromised, but we'll see. For the most part, if weather permits, I'll just drive it without checking the plugs so quickly. The rich burning smell at the pipes is gone.
Another strange thing is that I smell.a wiff of fresh oil when I hammer it. Oil level is fine, no leaks at oil filter, dipstick or drain plug. It is on the other hand very hard to get a good reading on the dipstick. Wile pulling it out it smears the oil all over. Could I have pverfilled it a tad? There's no oil smell from the tail pipes.
Nothing I can't overcome (I hope) it still runs waaaay better then with carb and without timing control so still no regrets what so ever I made the swap. Hopefully some nice weather next weekend
Nick

 

Glad to read the good news. And it has me wondering what was the source of the "pops" and rough idle and stalling? Did u isolate them problem to 1 item? Was there a fuel press reg issue?

I think its a good thing u and condor are laying the details out for the Terminator here on the forum. Now those interested can see what all is required for a good running EFI sys and can take a look before they leap.

Thx for posting.

 

Hey Cardo0, thanks for the interest.
The popping and stalling was due to 2 bad spark wires out of the box, so 2 cilinders where not firing.
I hope rich condition was due to the high fuel pressure 68-68 psi. The fuel pressure for the Terminator can safely be increased to 61psi, although no one seems to be able to tell me why (on Holley forum). I guess it has something to do with the fuel injectors and there operating pressure?
My install should work as there have been many installs with the C5 FPR @ 56-57 psi.

I really hope this thread is usefull

Regards,
Nick

 

Hello Nick, Very glad to hear that you have things working and it is running much better. May I offer an observation about the IAC.

At idle the IAC should be anywhere between 2 and 10 counts. I have mine dialed in to 5 counts and my idle is very happy. (adjusting the throttle blades with the idle screw adjustment is what achieves this).

If you can not get the count off of 0 (zero) that means the IAC is not controlling the idle, the throttle blades are controlling the idle. So you need to close up the throttle blades a little. Hopefully you have the primary and secondary blades opening and closing the exact same. They must be in tandem not progressive. Then you can adjust the idle screw to achieve the IAC count you need. If the IAC does not control the idle then a lot of other stuff will be out of wack. The IAC is the AIR controller, not the throttle blades.

If you make adjustments to the throttle blades remember to go back and reset the throttle position sensor (TPS). I can't stress enough that the throttle blades must work in tandem i.e be the same for opening and be the same for the when closed so the IAC can control the idle. Also go back and look at what you have your idle RPM set at. I set mine for a target of 850 and the system (IAC) does a great job of putting it right there.

The oil smell may be just from the PVC system. Check your PVC valve. An often mistake in checking the valve is folks just shake them and if they rattle then they are okay. Well that just means they are not stuck either open or closed. It does not mean it is the correct one for your particular motor and the vacuum it pulls. Too much vacuum at the PVC and it never will open when you get off the throttle. To little vacuum at the PVC and it will always stay slightly open. Magnifies itself when opening or closing the throttle. So having said all that, you may not have the correct PVC for your motor. This may account for the oil smell. It is simply crankcase oil vapor being let out but not through the correct channel. So your crankcase vent system may not be working correctly because of an incorrect PCV valve.

I put another 142 miles on the car 10/11/2015. Went to a car show and the motor ran flawlessly. I now have a total of 256 miles on the Terminator. Love IT!!! Just for fun I checked the mileage. Remember I have not changed a thing, I.E still in learning mode and have not uploaded the fuel table with learning corrections. Got 23.6 MPG cruising at 75-80 MPH. This is the same as my best with the Holley Avenger on it. I expect the mileage to get even better.

My next step will be to download the current learn, save it and then save it to the base fuel table that I have been using. Then I will look at the fuel graph and smooth out any areas that need it. Then I will up load the "new" fuel table to the ECM and drive it. I will also check and make sure the learn is at the lowest learn it can be. Not going to turn it completely off just yet. Also remember the system continually makes changes to fuel tables as you drive accounting for changes in temp and so on.

I'll let you know how it all turns out.

Again, I am very glad to hear that things are sorted out and you can start enjoying the car. Now lets get those throttle blades corrected.

 

Bob, heya.
The PCV valve is of a 81-82 Vette with two ports. One incoming from the vapor canister, the other one out to the front port on the throttle body. I didn't however had the oil smell with a 1 port PVC. Maybe I should try with the one port again and T the hose coming from the canister to the line from PCV valve to carb just to see if the smell goes away. Don't know why it shouldn't work as is because it's a standard setup as all 81-82 Corvette models.

The Dakota Digital VHX is working flawlessy as well. No more guessing if oil, volt and water readings are correct, no more bouncy tach and speedo needles. I do prefer the original gauges look but you can't have it all. 0-100 kmh takes 7.2 secs. According to the gauges. Still way too slow but not with a brake launch or full throttle immediately

Back to the Terminator. While I redid a lot of thing I bend the link between primary and secondary to get close to the 1-1 blade movement. This created the problem where I couldn't get the AIC value to change from 0%.
Today I bend it back and was able to get the reading more or less correct between 2 and 7 % but There's again quite some delay between primary and secondary.
I did take it for a 150 mile cruise, back roads, highways, secondary roads to get as much learning in at various conditions. It performed flawlessly. 5-8 restarts (playing with throttle blades) and every time it fires right up just like any moderen car. The filter,regulator is doing it's job with a near constant 56psi. The biggest difference I notice besides the hot starts is how it performs at higher rpm's. Extremely smooth. Low or medium throttle is ok but just not as smooth. It might have something to.do with the torque converter or 700r4 (shudder) both where sold as new (bowtie overdrives) but I really don't thrust the local speedshop anymore.

When I parked the car in the garage the TPS was at 1% and IAC at 9% so obviously it has changed after the drive. I also have a very slight hesitation when slowly pressing the throttle after coasting. The idle also drops down below the set value making you think it will stall. It seems I still have to play with the throttle blades some more. Nothong I can't overcome.

I think the rich fuel smell is gone and the AFR seems to be less jumpy. My previous rich issue might have been excessive idling when I was at the tech inspection.

I got a grip on myself and resisted the urge to check the plugs. I'll give it 500 miles but weather is changing quickly (rain)

All in all good news show
Hope that's the same for you Bob.
Should get a video and pictures sometime
Regards,
Nick

 

Hello Nick. Been a while so thought I would give a small update. I pulled up the sofeware and merged the learn fuel table with the base fuel table I was using. Then looked at the fuel graph and smoothed out a few area's. Loaded the new fuel table into the ECM. The car had been sitting for about three weeks and it started right up. Took it for a drive with vertually no temp on the engine to see how it would react. All I can say is Excellent!!. Very well mannored.
Went up on the highway for a little while and went through the gears. Third pulls so strong it is unreal. I can hit 70 very quickly and have to throttle back. It really is that smooth. Put it in fifth gear and just cruise. Get in it a little while in fifth gear and it has lots of power without any hesitation. Could never quite get that from my carb.
So have 40 more miles on it after the tune and it runs just great. Total miles on it now is 296.1. I am confident enough at this point to take it on a long haul without worring about it.
Unfortunately I will be out of action for 12 weeks because of a neck surgery I must have. As soon as I am better I will be putting more mile on the Vette. It is terrible fun to drive and now after the tune I did I am looking forward to even better MPG than what I previousley got. I did not do the EFI for better MPG, I just wanted a good fuel system that I did not require any matenance. Getting better MPG is a real benifit that I will enjoy however.

I hope your system is working as well as mine. I have made no machanical adjustments to anything since I installed it and initially set it up. Now it is just some simple sofeware changes and it runs even better. You'll see what I mean when you do yours.
Take care, Bob

 

Bob,
All the best with the neck surgery ! I hope it's not something too serious?
Get better soon, all the rest is of no importance.

Post back when it's over and done with, we'll talk Terminator efi then

Nick

 

Hello Nick. Thanks for the well wishes on the neck surgery
well not from an accident or anything like that that. It is called degenerative bone, otherwise know as severe arthritis. It happens to all of us as we age. The 26 years of service may have had something to do with it also. Tank warfare is not kind to the body. Kind of funny, my neck vertebrae sort of look like your old and worn out plugs. I am already walking twice a day so should me shifting gears soon. Now just need to see where the wive hid the damn keys. :-)

Hope your project is continuing to go well. Looks like there have been some further updates on the FITech system. Seems their tests made very little if any difference from a TBI to a MPFI until you hit hit about 500 HP and that's when MPFI made better power. I don't have 500HP plus so the Terminator works just fine for me. (It is upgradable anyway )

Good to know the Corvette Community has so many options to get power and so on from the older General engines. I would have loved to put an LS in mine but it was cost and wife prohibitive.

I'll update again once I can drive again and can find the keys. Tale Care,
Bob