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Progress - Just a few little things done. Oil filter mount has been modified by removing the oil filter bypass valve. Takes just a minute to pop out the washer, remove the spring & flap then tap with 1/4" NPT pipe tap. Same part as the block plugs.
You can never be too clean. A lot people believe the machine shop has hot tanked the block after the work is done and the engine is ready to assemble. Nothing could be further from the truth. The parts are not ready to assemble! This block has been honed and hot tanked then soap and water wash tub bath at home with bore brushes....still we find all this grit being removed from the bores. I have sprayed the towels with WD-40 and wiped the bores repeatedly until the paper towels come out clean. The builder is the ONLY ONE responsible for cleaning up this mess.
The best (and worse) part of using a big degree wheel is that you can see EVERYTHING....All the little sloppy tolerances and deviations from the cam card are very noticeable. I have used the .018" lifter open and close numbers, the ,050" lifter open/close numbers and the ICL check. I do not prefer to use the ICL method as some cams have asymetrical lobe flanks and the results of the .020" drops will show a different ICL when compared to the ICL from the cam card open close points. Results here were repeatable, warts and all.
If you look at these valve timing numbers you will see the Crane cam has similar open and close points at .050" lifter lift. The Crane grind has a lot more lift than the LT-1 for the similar duration because it moves open and closed faster with steeper ramps. This requires stiffer than stock valve springs to control the faster motion.
That is a great h-flat performance cam. I was always a crane fan. If you look at the Crane cam valve event numbers they are about 4 degrees retarded compared to comp cams XE series and the wider LC makes the Crane sound tamer because of less intake reversion at idle and less overlap. Both of the Crane ideas increase MPG. I started out using the Crane roller tip 1.6.
That is a great h-flat performance cam. I was always a crane fan. If you look at the Crane cam valve event numbers they are about 4 degrees retarded compared to comp cams XE series and the wider LC makes the Crane sound tamer because of less intake reversion at idle and less overlap. Both of the Crane ideas increase MPG. I started out using the Crane roller tip 1.6.
The wide lobe centers work better for the cast iron exhaust manifolds and restrictive exhaust system. I have a set of 1-3/4" Hooker SCs but I need to go in a different direction on this build. Still fun, but know there will be some HP left on the table.
Good tip on cleaning, youd be surprised how many skip that.
Had a Brand new Little M block show up yrs ago (brand new) and the water jackets had TONS of metal shards in them. That woulda done some damage.
I can't swear to this as to being 100% accurate, but back before the proliferation of all kinds of speed parts manufactures the "Pink" chevy forged rods were what every hot rodder wanted. So anyway I took my 79 L-82 motor down to have the block bored and all the pistons which were pressed fit removed and then balance all the new assembly. Anyway they were looking at the forged L-82 rods and it was brought up that they looked exactly like "Pink Rods" They were the same thing down to the forging numbers on the beams.
So it might be possible that GM continued to use the supplies of Pink rods in all the forged crank, windage trayed, 4 bolt L-82 motors through the 70's. does anyone here know for sure?
My understanding is that there were Pink "O" rods and Pink "X" Rods.
The early pink rods were "O" rods and the 1975 - 1982 L82s also had the pinkish / whitish paint on them but with "X" stamped on them.
-I've got my 79 L82 still torn apart and I can share pictures of the pinkish /whitish paint on everything an the "X" stamped on the rods and the crank. -The pink paint was splashed all around even got some on the oil pump.
Mark, glad to see that everything's coming together for you and the parts went to a good home!
If my stupid ball hone would've gotten here before Snowmageddon, I'd offer to ship you my set of nylon engine brushes including the big one for the bores. -I did the same thing as you with multiple rounds of cleaners and WD40 and shop towels and just kept pulling more and more gunk out of the bores until I used the nylon brushes in my hand drill -then it cleaned up pretty quickly.
Now's a good time to smooth out the oil passages into the RMS if you want, too. -I couldn't not do it. Super fast and easy with my dremel.
Adam
Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; Feb 11, 2019 at 01:56 PM.
Thanks Adam. The shop really needed to use the hard stone hone to get the bores right in this case. Had just a bit of wear but you cant really tell where you are with a dingle ball hone. Hard stones reveal the low spots and take down the high spots better. Those ball hones are probably good for breaking a glaze but not much else IMO.
I already have a full set of brushes and like them.
Thanks Adam. The shop really needed to use the hard stone hone to get the bores right in this case. Had just a bit of wear but you cant really tell where you are with a dingle ball hone. Hard stones reveal the low spots and take down the high spots better. Those ball hones are probably good for breaking a glaze but not much else IMO.
I already have a full set of brushes and like them.
I had a machine shop "properly" hone it with a Sunnen hone; they used a straight 400 grit Sunnen 818 stone --Total Seal said that finish is completely inappropriate for my steel top rings and a street motor. Machine shop didn't want to re-do it, just said "that's how we've been doing it for 30+ years".
I'm just using a 240 grit ball hone to rough up the walls and get deeper grooves -3 passes should only remove 1/4 thousandth of material but get the wall finish much close to where it should be. (And my engine only had 14k miles on it so I'm hoping it's "good enough" to put another 40-50k miles on it before I have a stroker kit put in it.
Adam
Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; Feb 11, 2019 at 03:01 PM.
Can't get things too clean. Dirt, sand and filings are the engines worst enemy.
What are you doing to the heads. I would at least do a performance valve job with back cut valves and clean up the bowls. A little work can pay off big. Did a lot of that back in the day.
The -186 big valve heads were a hard debate....I have a grinder and I have ported a few sets BUT....Here is my dilemma....The exhaust is going to choke any real good top end numbers. Even if I ported them, the aftermarket heads will blow these in the dust. I am not going to change that at this time. I do have the 1-3/4" Hooker Super Comps and I could install a nice custom exhaust....But I will leave that for another day. These heads are really nice, fully uncut and original so I am trying to avoid tearing them up any more than I have to. The screw-in studs were a must-do so I did that. I do have a set stock rockers, push rods, and a set of the -142 GM Brown stripe Z/28 springs laying around and they would work, they are marginal (weak) for this cam grind if I was to wind it up to its full potential SOOO....When I want to go faster at some time in the future, I can take off the smog stuff, port the heads, get proper mufflers and swap the springs for a set of PAC tool steel circle track springs. 7000 RPM plus would be sweet.....just not right away. I will have to make a lot of noise and rev it even if it isn't making all the power it could potentially lay down.
Hi Mark - It's really fun to find out where your parts go when you ship them off to somebody. I didn't know what those 186's were going into an old school solid lifter build and really happy to see that. Your logic is right on I think - I spoke with various shops about porting the heads for my build, but the cost involved for the gains realized vs. aftermarket aluminums that I was considering just didn't add up. I struggled with breaking up the "numbers matching" motor, but tore off the Band-Aid and did it. The heads had 79K miles on them and checked out solid. Looking forward to seeing the rest of your build! Please keep posting up progress!
The wide lobe centers work better for the cast iron exhaust manifolds and restrictive exhaust system. I have a set of 1-3/4" Hooker SCs but I need to go in a different direction on this build. Still fun, but know there will be some HP left on the table.
I'm talking about 114 lc 112 lc VS 110 or less. Wide split in the ,050 duration numbers like a 232I and 242E @ .050 is 10 degrees and would work better with a restrictive exhaust
modern high MPG performance cars might have 114 - 117 LC wider LC makes for a broad TQ band where 110 or less will have a higher peak power over a narrow rpm
With your cam specs I was able to guesstimate HP from Desktop Dyno.
Looks like:320-338 HP flywheel @5500 (depending on how restrictive your manifolds are, vette vs camaro, etc)
385 ft-lb@4000
287 rwhp
Headers would take it to 389 HP (+51)
Looks like that cam is 10-15 HP stronger than the LT1 cam and about +20 ft-lbs down low. About the same HP as my old 30-30 cam too, with way more tq than that one.
Last edited by leigh1322; Feb 13, 2019 at 10:04 PM.
With your cam specs I was able to guesstimate HP from Desktop Dyno.
Looks like:320-338 HP flywheel @5500 (depending on how restrictive your manifolds are, vette vs camaro, etc)
385 ft-lb@4000
287 rwhp
Headers would take it to 389 HP (+51)
Looks like that cam is 10-15 HP stronger than the LT1 cam and about +20 ft-lbs down low. About the same HP as my old 30-30 cam too, with way more tq than that one.
Leigh you’re my new best friend!
You are SO good with Desktop Dyno, can you do my combo for me real quick?
Now what if I use this other cam?
what if I switch to a single plane?
What if I use race gas with real unicorn blood and advance the cam 4 degrees?
(Prepare for your inbox to be flooded with private messages now that people know you have software Dyno skillz.)
I feel like a genie freed from my genie lamp prison because I’ve tricked someone else into becoming the genie! Muhahaha!
Adam
Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; Feb 13, 2019 at 11:57 PM.
I'm talking about 114 lc 112 lc VS 110 or less. Wide split in the ,050 duration numbers like a 232I and 242E @ .050 is 10 degrees and would work better with a restrictive exhaust
modern high MPG performance cars might have 114 - 117 LC wider LC makes for a broad TQ band where 110 or less will have a higher peak power over a narrow rpm
+1!
David Vizard recommends that to hit peak max torque and max hp #s for an sbc 350 you should have a 108LSA and for a 383 a 106.5 LSA - as the LSA widens from there your peaks get lower but the distance between them wider.
Note: no power vacuum brakes with Vizards numbers.
Adam
Last edited by NewbVetteGuy; Feb 14, 2019 at 12:16 AM.
With your cam specs I was able to guesstimate HP from Desktop Dyno.
Looks like:320-338 HP flywheel @5500 (depending on how restrictive your manifolds are, vette vs camaro, etc)
385 ft-lb@4000
287 rwhp
Headers would take it to 389 HP (+51)
Looks like that cam is 10-15 HP stronger than the LT1 cam and about +20 ft-lbs down low. About the same HP as my old 30-30 cam too, with way more tq than that one.
Leigh,
Thanks for the model. Might be a little optimistic but we will see. One thing Desktop Dyno does not take into account is gas quality - I want to stay pretty close to pump premium. We have 93 octane pretty much everywhere here. The Dynamic Compression Ratio for this combination and cam comes out to be 8.61 which is just a little too high for pump gas. In an effort to adjust for that, I have retarded the camshaft timing 2 degrees. New DCR with retarded cam timing is 8.46 which gets me back in the safer 8-8.5 zone. This will move the torque curve up about 200 RPM so we will loose a little torque at the bottom but gain a bit at the top end theoretically. The cast iron manifolds and factory style chambered exhaust really hurts the HP potential. We will live with it on the initial build and see where we want to go after that.
Cam bolt lock plate has been left off to show the cam timing bushing. This position gives me 2 degrees of retard.
Truth is, I still need to check the CC's of the assembled head chambers as-built to be 100% sure about the actual compression numbers. Even though these heads are not modified, the chambers might be a little bit bigger than the 64cc's commonly assumed.
David Vizard recommends that to hit peak max torque and max hp #s for an sbc 350 you should have a 108LSA and for a 383 a 106.5 LSA - as the LSA widens from there your peaks get lower but the distance between them wider.
Note: no power vacuum brakes with Vizards numbers.
Adam
I see where he was going with that...Broadly - For a race car running in a narrow RPM range where the only consideration is the torque curve that you are riding while you are between the gear shifts, the lobe separation angles can be tuned to the crank stroke to maximize peak torque. We could also take advantage of the overlap on a free flowing exhaust. That said...On a street car, where the restriction of the exhaust limits the beneficial effect of cam overlap, the wider lobe separation angles generally reduce overlap and provide a wider, but lower peak torque curve (desirable) and potentially a better idle. Can't forget how duration effects overlap but apples to apples this is kind of how it works as far as I know. Extra exhaust timing from a dual pattern cam helps the restrictive exhaust work better too.
I remember owning, driving and building 60"-70's big blocks in Chevelle's, Camaro's, Buick GS's, and Firebirds.
Throw in a cam, some headers, an intake and a Holley on a Saturday, and you had a monster right off the car lot.
Good times!
Hay "OLD-DUDE"! (OldCarBum)
I didn't realize they had these types of engines in the "1800's"....LOL! I just couldn't help myself.
Remember dropping the air pressure to 4# in your worn out rear "Wide Oval" tires? Painting your stock rims with silver paint so they would look like "Chrome Reverse Rims"? Adjusting the idle of your carburetor so low it would barely stay running, to show off your cam, as you loped through the local car hop (ours was named "Hoppers Drive In"). Rolling the left sleeve of your white tee shirt up so it would hold the pack of Marlboro (in the box) cigarettes and not fall out while you had that arm "flexed" and hanging out the drivers side window, while the other arm just had it's wrist lying on the top of the steering wheel too steer the car?
Before you could make the full round in the parking lot, someone would "GIVE YOU THE RACE SIGN"!!!! The combination of your four or five buddies piled up in the car with you edging you on, the 8-10 hot looking girls sitting on the outside pick-nick tables, in their cut off Short-Short jeans, sipping on Cherry Cokes, grinning while whispering to each other, in addition to "YOUR MASSIVE EGO"..... you take the challenge. You, the guy wanting to race plus 8-10 other cars crammed with teen age hoodlums, drive around the corner to your local, well known, isolated, well lit, straight as an arrow, four lane road. After you drop off one guy at the end of the marked off quarter mile and the rest of them at the starting line....You are off to the races.
Until you miss third gear (because your third gear synchronizer is bad), ending up with three pieces of the cam you were so proud of (later found in the oil pan) and the rest of your youth spent in despair because your girlfriend was having you spend all your money on her instead of fixing you "One And Only First True Love" a burgundy 57 Chevy Belair, black rolled "n" pleated seat covers, burgundy colored bulb in the interior light fixture, black deep pile carpet, silver painted stock rims, rear "Wide Oval" tires with 4# of air, three speed standard transmission with Hurst "Three On The Floor" shift, 283 board to 292, 375 Isky cam, solid lifters, Carter four barrel carburetor, chrome air filter cover, tack mounted on the dash in front of the steering wheel, AM/FM radio with "front and rear" speakers, coil front suspension springs clamped to the top of the rear leaf springs, tall enough to give you an additional 12" lift to the rear of the body, dual exhaust with "Glass Pack" mufflers that you got hot then sprayed cold water on. The law stated you had to have factory mufflers on the car but it didn't say they you couldn't blow all the glass packing out of them!!! I never had the money to do everything the "RIGHT" way but with some good old southern ingenuity.... I GOT-ER-DONE!
Yup, MUST HAVE BEEN THE "GOOD OLD DAYS", WHEN AFTER "50" YEARS, YOU CAN CLOSE YOUR EYES AND SEE IT LIKE IT WAS YESTERDAY!
Happy Valentines Day
KNOT-HEAD
Last edited by KNOT-HEAD; Feb 14, 2019 at 10:25 AM.
Reason: edit text
I never had the money to do everything the "RIGHT" way but with some good old southern ingenuity.... I GOT-ER-DONE!