I am aware of issues using the ZF6 with an LS, what are the issues using a 4+3? Has anyone tried? Same issues as the ZF6?

And in response to the Motown block questions, it is an iron block, the same iron in your track *****. The aluminum LS is better, but I do not believe that invalidates an iron block option that will use most of the parts many of us already have.

 

That adapter bracket from them is a POS! It wasn't worth its weight in DOG DO. Jeffvette purchased that bracket from them a couple years go to install a LS1 and a T56 into his C4, I had to take that bracket and cut it apart and them reweld it back together. The welds from them looked like some high school project. By brothers welding looks like bird droppings and his welds looked better than what we got from them.

On the other hand, Melrose mentioned something about ripping out the dash and installing analog gauges. There really isn't any need to do that. I have installed severall stand alone EFI systems into C4s in the past and kept the stock dash working just fine. All you have to do is to keep the OE ECM and share a few key signals between the stand alone ECU and the OE ECM, or the new LS1 PCM. It has been done for years and it isn't rocket science. An LS1 A4 swap would be easy in one of these cars especially with just having to swap out the tail shaft housing to get the correct C Beam mounting, doing a M6 T56 is going to be harder because you have to make the C Beam mount and if one chooses to use the Pro-Street conversion bracket you have to be prepared to make that bracket usable. Those people should be ashamed of themselves selling something like that for $500, IMHO that POS isn't even safe, at least not the one I got ahold of, I wouldn't trust that thing to support a VW engine let alone a LS1 making in excess of 400Hp.

Melrose makes same real nice headers for LS1, LT and L98 series engines, there LS swap headers will make installing a LS engine into the C4 chassis much easier. The one I had worked on with Jeffvette utilized an old set of C5 cast iron LS exhaust manifolds which worked but they were tight. If you don't want headers then you can use them, they will work but the Melrose headers will fit better, plus they are real long tube headers.

 

there are a bunch of interchangeable parts as far as head and intakes and blocks.. but if you go for the cheaper truck block or an engine without the accessory brackets you are looking at a fortune in getting the correct parts.. if you get a truck engine the accessories will not fit under a c4's hood.. now you are talking a harmonic balancer, water pump, the correct brackets, a car intake and coolant crossover pipe. you are looking at what you have in that long block in parts to allow it to work in these cars. plus gauges, plus mounts, plus headers, plus a wiring harness. $500 for a tranny mount that doesn't fit.. wow.. i think i am going to start pulling my engine this weekend to get a head start on pissing my money away to have a 400 hp car. oh wait. my car is already putting out more than 400hp. and the engine dropped right in.

 

Guldstrand put an LSx into a 93. They mated a ZF 6-speed to the block with an adapter. Maybe they can assist. Guldstrand isnt a cheap company, and it was done right.

 

 

Bill at zfdoc.com is currently working on an extensive compilation of pictures showing EVERY step of his Ls-x with a ZF swap c4. His adaptor plate is really a nice piece. It uses the input shaft from an LT5, which will set you back about $500 dollars alone!

 

I think if there was on place to get the Headers and engine mounts as a 'kit' that will help.

As for wiring, I agree you cannot offer a one-stop replacement, but if there are vendors that are willing to work with you, then you direct business their way for the harnessing. I have also wondered if you could run a LSx motor from a stock C4 ECM, sure you don't get a lot of the OBD2 stuff, but i was thinking about this a few years ago and I had most of the pieces worked out, I just never tried it.



Yeah I was at Chris' home shop in 1996, they did a lot of custom work on their race cars.. it was cool to see at then!!


Yes Bill at ZFDoc is making a plate using a LT5 input shaft..

but I also saw one at:

http://www.quicktimeinc.com

RM-6039 - LS Bellhousing to ZF Transmission

* Height = 5.775
* Trans. Bore Ø = N/A
* Engine = Chevy LS-1, LS-2, LS-3, LS-6, LS-7, LS-9, Small Block Chevy, Big Block Chevy, LT1
* Trans. = GM ZF
* Flywheel = 168 or 153 tooth
* Weight = 22#
* Block plate, engine bolts, and shifter fork ball included
* Exclusive license to Rockland Standard gear (800)-227-1523

 

Hey guys just to let you all know I am going to be compiling C4 swap info, and suppliers and posting it on our LS C4 swap header page per some of your requests. Hopefully this will help people out with instruction and finding parts. Trey at Speedhound already sent me a bunch of info, but if any of you would like to add something, or even links to a informative swap thread, please post it and I will try and get it on the page.
Thanks again,
Chris

 

From What I have seen the ZF bellhousing bolts on as the LS engine has the same bolt pattern of that of the standard SBC with one less bolt. The issue you will have is the demension between that of the flywheel in relationship to the transmission and the release bearing. But that should even be easily resolved with the use of a aftermarket hydraulic release bearing.

 

I heard the pilot bushing/bearing area is also an issue

 

http://944hybrids.forumotion.com

These guys are very knowledgeable, Their focus is on putting LS engines in the 951/944 they know the bell housing wiring and programing. Board members GT1SCCA and Admin are doing swaps commercially. GT1SCCA has a manual published with some very detailed mechanical drawings. I have 1 on order. Like I said there focus is on a different chassis but ther is a lot of useful info and some very talented individuals, not a waxer or brand snob in the bunch!

 

I didn't say anything about accessories, I was just posting up a chart to demystify what parts work with what. I never said, it was cost effective, again, just trying to add to the knowledgebase.

The point of this post was to clarify that:

1) The ls motor is different and "race" technology compared to our gen 1 sbc. (15* heads for instance)

2) A t56 adapter exists and is 150 NOT 500. It fits too, however Tom said the welds are ****. So if you are doing a T56 you could fab a new one, or maybe you could buy theirs and have a competent welder go over it and fix it. Still gonna be a lot less than 500$ and regardless, I'm just trying to add to the information available.

3) If you run an engine management harness it should be able to connect up with the dash and work fine.

If you want to go on propagating myths and blowing your anus out over what others may or may not want to do, go ahead. I was only posting up information that someone may find valuable if they decide to tackle this project. Its post like yours that drive a thread off track. Post about engine accessories and the truck accessories not fitting, great.



The LS motor is similar to our Gen1 SBC, it is not a Gen1 SBC though so people who get uptight about it not dropping in need to realize that. GM didn't design it to fit cars they made 30 years ago. You want to use an SBC, built a Dart SHP 421 and run AFR 235s you'll be rolling in smoke. Two ways to skin a cat you know.

 

 

Bill has done a trumendous amount of independent study. Many sleepless nights getting DEAD-accurate measurements to successfully get the clutch to correctly engage and disengage. He's the person you want to talk to for details, because a lot of the measurements are in thousandths etc. and too many digits AFTER the decimal for me to comprehend....lol

I do believe Bill is also using an adapter plate that he's fabricated. Again, i haven't talk to him about this in some time, so you'd have to contact him.

 

I did a little reading, according to SA books, how to swap GM LS engines #SA156; GMPP sells a bellhousing that will fit the LS to "muncie, T-10,saginaw, richmond, tremec TKO, tremec T56-11 and other specalty transmissions" Advance adapters also fits to GM Jeep and Ford transmissions. They also offer a clutch/fly wheel package.
a different route to fix the crank flange to bell housing issue is to use a deep pilot bearing such as the McLeod #8617, or GM#12557583. I suspect that the pilot bearing w/stock bell housing will offer a little more fire wall clearance as opposed to the adapter bell housing. The pilot bearing solutition is how the Porsche guys get the C5 bell and clutch to fit the Porsche tork tube. Some of thoes guys are running stout hp.

 

And a bit more... to move the shifter foreward on a t56 a outfit called Driveline Components Company offers a Z bar shifter. This might be sold through Street and Performance.

 

The problem is this swap just doesn't make sense. Why anyone would go through the bother of stuffing an LSX into a C4 when you can just buy a C5 with the damned motor already in it for $10K is beyond me. I could see doing a LSX swap in a C1, C2 or C3 but a C4 especailly a late C4 doesn't look all that different from a C5 in the first place plus the C5 is just a better car with a real frame. I suppose if you had a nice garage, lots of time and a serious set of skills this could be a fun swap but for the average guy it would be more work than it's worth.

 

What kind of pilot bearing issues are there? The reason I ask is because GM has been using the same bearing for years, even in the 97 to 01 C5s it is the same exact bearing as the L98/LT series engines. Only later did GM change to a ball bearing pilot bearing, but the ID of the bearing is the same as the earlier bearing. The input shaft pilot shaft OD is identical to that of the input shaft pilot OD of the ZF. If it is a issue, it has to be depth but not ID demensions.

 

Correct, from what i remember.. if you use a L98/LT1/LT4 Bell housing for a ZF and and L98/LT1/LT4 ZF6, the input shaft is too short to seat into the Pilot bearing (either at all or completely) using the same Bellhousing and the LT5 ZF6, the shaft is too long.

using a spacer like ZFDOC, then the LT5 ZF and L98/LT1/LT4 bellhousing work with the LSx. If there was a way to increas ethe depth of the pilot bearing to bring it out towards the trans then the NON-LT5 trans would work.

I hope that makes sense

 

Tom, I belive that the differance is that the LSX bell housing mateing surface is farther to the rear in relation to the pilot bearing than the SBC-LT1. I am not 100% shure about that yet. I should have a certan answer in a few days.