Problems, problems, problems......
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 773
Likes: 2
From: Minneapolis MN
and he has his nasty hands on my crank hub!!! Either that or there are some things that are just meant not to be.
Another non productive afternoon on this POS car.
I got the bolt out that was stuck from yesterday. The threads on it are beat all to hell so I assume the inside of the crank hub is toast. But......just in case they weren't I put a smaller bolt in to let the puller push against. Bad mistake, that bolt bent in the hub and will not come out. I can't get anything on it to try and pull it out either. It will turn but is obviously bent from the rotation it makes while turning. So I figure I have a couple of options. I can cut the hub off enough to get the bent bolt out but then how do I get the rest of the remaining hub off with nothing to fasten the puller to. I can pull the engine and get another one because this one obviously hates me but no funds so that is out too. So I'm just going to give it a rest again. Maybe one day I'll pick back up on it and solve this thing.
When I decided to take this cam project on I was trying to rely on the experience of others that had done something similar many, many times in the past. With that being said I assumed I could get the correct parts to do this with without the problems I am having now. I bought good parts and did my very best to install them correctly. I was wrong........never assume anything! Always double check what you are doing and especially the parts being used.
This thread has become way to long so as far as I'm concerned it is closed. If and when I decide to tackle this problem again I'll just start a new one with a link to this one in it.
I want to thank all of you that have taken so much time to try and help me through this mess. If nothing else you have taught me a lot and I appreciate it very much!!!
Thanks for listening to my rant........... I'm just over this car for now!!
Later, Weav
Another non productive afternoon on this POS car.
I got the bolt out that was stuck from yesterday. The threads on it are beat all to hell so I assume the inside of the crank hub is toast. But......just in case they weren't I put a smaller bolt in to let the puller push against. Bad mistake, that bolt bent in the hub and will not come out. I can't get anything on it to try and pull it out either. It will turn but is obviously bent from the rotation it makes while turning. So I figure I have a couple of options. I can cut the hub off enough to get the bent bolt out but then how do I get the rest of the remaining hub off with nothing to fasten the puller to. I can pull the engine and get another one because this one obviously hates me but no funds so that is out too. So I'm just going to give it a rest again. Maybe one day I'll pick back up on it and solve this thing.
When I decided to take this cam project on I was trying to rely on the experience of others that had done something similar many, many times in the past. With that being said I assumed I could get the correct parts to do this with without the problems I am having now. I bought good parts and did my very best to install them correctly. I was wrong........never assume anything! Always double check what you are doing and especially the parts being used.
This thread has become way to long so as far as I'm concerned it is closed. If and when I decide to tackle this problem again I'll just start a new one with a link to this one in it.
I want to thank all of you that have taken so much time to try and help me through this mess. If nothing else you have taught me a lot and I appreciate it very much!!!
Thanks for listening to my rant........... I'm just over this car for now!!
Later, Weav
T his whole experiance is going to teach you alot & when this is fixed you will look back on it & have one hell of a story to tell.If you lived close to me I would help to solve this problem & probley make this issue look very easy.Don't stress you'll get it
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 9,715
Likes: 27
From: Kempner Texas
I suspect that since you had to re-adjust the lifter preload (They kept loosening up on me) that was caused by the lifter NOT being on the base circle of the lobe when you searched for zero lash. This is another possibility.
If the lifter is riding on the ramps you'll get a false zero lash. If you continue and adjust the preload from that (wrong) position, when the cam turns and allows the lifter to drop to the correct (base circle) position, the adjustment you set will become loose.
So the KEY is to make sure the lifter is on the base circle and NOT on the ramp or, even worse, the nose of the cam's lobes.
Basically, what we need to do is go through a Process of Elimination. We need to check and verify everything to eliminate all the possible causes. The way I'd attack this is to first check all the PROBABLE causes and, if nothing is found doing that, I'd move to all the POSSIBLE causes.
This is solveable; hell, they fixed the Hubel Telescope didn't they? And it's in outer-space. LOL
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's OP COLLEGE!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
If the lifter is riding on the ramps you'll get a false zero lash. If you continue and adjust the preload from that (wrong) position, when the cam turns and allows the lifter to drop to the correct (base circle) position, the adjustment you set will become loose.
So the KEY is to make sure the lifter is on the base circle and NOT on the ramp or, even worse, the nose of the cam's lobes.
Basically, what we need to do is go through a Process of Elimination. We need to check and verify everything to eliminate all the possible causes. The way I'd attack this is to first check all the PROBABLE causes and, if nothing is found doing that, I'd move to all the POSSIBLE causes.
This is solveable; hell, they fixed the Hubel Telescope didn't they? And it's in outer-space. LOL
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's OP COLLEGE!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,488
Likes: 1,352
I know you said it was closed but don't give up.I deal with chit like this everyday.To remove hub you will have to use a cut-off tool.You may have to remove some parts to get at hub with cut-off tool.A cut-off tool is a tool that is hand-held & has a round spinning thin cut-off wheel.Use cut-off wheel to cut hub at angle down CLOSE to hub then stop.Take a chisel a insert into cut & hit with hammer.This will crack hub & hub will then slide right off.Then you can deal with bent bolt stuck in crank snout.Once you get out bent bolt use a heli-coil insert into crank snout with stock bolt thread pitch.You will have to drill end of crank to due this to install heli-coil.Hope this helps & to make you feel better at least this is you car & not a customers car which chit like this happens to me at least twice a weekT his whole experiance is going to teach you alot & when this is fixed you will look back on it & have one hell of a story to tell.If you lived close to me I would help to solve this problem & probley make this issue look very easy.Don't stress you'll get it
T his whole experiance is going to teach you alot & when this is fixed you will look back on it & have one hell of a story to tell.If you lived close to me I would help to solve this problem & probley make this issue look very easy.Don't stress you'll get itI'VE GOT A WICKED EXTENDED REACH CUT OFF TOOL YOU CAN BORROW
When I did my gear swap I stripped a pair of bolts that go through the batwing into the center chunk. I then learned all about helicoil, great stuff.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,488
Likes: 1,352
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,616
Likes: 5
From: Sandhills of North Carolina
JD, I tried sending you a PM but it won't go. I also sent you an email from two separate email accounts and they came back to me. If you get this post, send the wheel on. It also appears PM's are not working on here either
Last edited by Weav's Vet; Nov 19, 2009 at 06:41 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,261
Likes: 85
From: O'Fallon Missouri
You're running the Cloyes 3145 timing chain set which comes with three different keyways on the crank gear. The cam you installed reportedly already has four degrees of advance ground into it.
So what I believe you did was to install the crank gear in the 4 degree advance position.
Now the cam is too far advanced, a total of eight degrees, give or take, depending on the tolerance stack. That'll raise the cranking pressures and lower the RPM point where peak power is made. That would cover both issues, the higher cranking compression and the lower rpm at which peak power is made.
To test my conclusion, you'll need to verify how you installed the crank gear. While the parts on the front of the engine are off, I recommend you should also degree-in the cam to verify that the cam was ground correctly.
Hope it helps.
Jake
So what I believe you did was to install the crank gear in the 4 degree advance position.
Now the cam is too far advanced, a total of eight degrees, give or take, depending on the tolerance stack. That'll raise the cranking pressures and lower the RPM point where peak power is made. That would cover both issues, the higher cranking compression and the lower rpm at which peak power is made.
To test my conclusion, you'll need to verify how you installed the crank gear. While the parts on the front of the engine are off, I recommend you should also degree-in the cam to verify that the cam was ground correctly.
Hope it helps.
Jake
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,616
Likes: 5
From: Sandhills of North Carolina
Yep, looks just like mine and I did it just like yours. Here's a pic. Although it's hard to tell, it's in the center slot. Also, I totally removed the timing gears to see if there was rubbing behind the cam sprocket. Nothing, not even on the cover itself.
Last edited by Weav's Vet; Nov 22, 2009 at 09:23 PM.
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Pro
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
From: middle of Illinois
Hmm, stealth timing dots?
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,616
Likes: 5
From: Sandhills of North Carolina
It's there guys. Look at it this way. The retard key slot has a pointed top which if you look you can just see it on the left. The factory key slot is round on top whch you can barely see in the picture. It's not really a dot it's more like a stamped circle. Anyway, it's on the factory setting. Still waiting on the degree kit. This week hopefully.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 9,600
Likes: 88
From: Springfield PA
Philly 'Burbs Events Coordinator
Just read this entire thread.
Don't give up, you've come too far to just walk away.
I had a miss on my Ruby and chased it for a few months, wanted to give up a few times but persisted and am glad I did!
For me, after about a grand in parts it turned out to be the ECM.
I agree that you need to verify the valve train but I'm thinking to realize the full potential maybe you do need an LT4 ECM?
Don't give up, you've come too far to just walk away.
I had a miss on my Ruby and chased it for a few months, wanted to give up a few times but persisted and am glad I did!
For me, after about a grand in parts it turned out to be the ECM.
I agree that you need to verify the valve train but I'm thinking to realize the full potential maybe you do need an LT4 ECM?
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,616
Likes: 5
From: Sandhills of North Carolina
Just read this entire thread.
Don't give up, you've come too far to just walk away.
I had a miss on my Ruby and chased it for a few months, wanted to give up a few times but persisted and am glad I did!
For me, after about a grand in parts it turned out to be the ECM.
I agree that you need to verify the valve train but I'm thinking to realize the full potential maybe you do need an LT4 ECM?
Don't give up, you've come too far to just walk away.
I had a miss on my Ruby and chased it for a few months, wanted to give up a few times but persisted and am glad I did!
For me, after about a grand in parts it turned out to be the ECM.
I agree that you need to verify the valve train but I'm thinking to realize the full potential maybe you do need an LT4 ECM?
Thanks for the advice/support Rex! I'm not giving up I'm just not as inspired as I was to start with. Still waiting on the degree kit. As soon as it gets here I'll get back to it. I'm hoping it's just going to be something like a misboxed cam as Pete suggested and not some major issue. Changing the cam again at this point would be a snap. I've been thinking about changing to another brand anyway. I'm just not to happy with this whole set up.
BTW, love your avatar
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,616
Likes: 5
From: Sandhills of North Carolina
Well, with over 3500 views I guess there is a lot of interest in this issue I'm having so I'm going to continue on with this thread.
Hopefully! The degree kit will be here the first of the week so I can get back to it. Anyway, I've been getting familiar with the degreeing process. Youtube is a wonderful site! I found a couple of good videos on how to adjust hydraulic lifters with the engine not running and also a good one on how to degree the cam in. You can watch them all day on there if you want. These are just a couple I picked out. I'm sure this is old stuff to you seasoned wrenchers but it's new to me and I'm sure it will add to what may be going on with my car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89o5rLpbCgI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la6-EgnCOl4
Hopefully! The degree kit will be here the first of the week so I can get back to it. Anyway, I've been getting familiar with the degreeing process. Youtube is a wonderful site! I found a couple of good videos on how to adjust hydraulic lifters with the engine not running and also a good one on how to degree the cam in. You can watch them all day on there if you want. These are just a couple I picked out. I'm sure this is old stuff to you seasoned wrenchers but it's new to me and I'm sure it will add to what may be going on with my car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89o5rLpbCgI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la6-EgnCOl4
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,068
Likes: 6
Well, with over 3500 views I guess there is a lot of interest in this issue I'm having so I'm going to continue on with this thread.
Hopefully! The degree kit will be here the first of the week so I can get back to it. Anyway, I've been getting familiar with the degreeing process. Youtube is a wonderful site! I found a couple of good videos on how to adjust hydraulic lifters with the engine not running and also a good one on how to degree the cam in. You can watch them all day on there if you want. These are just a couple I picked out. I'm sure this is old stuff to you seasoned wrenchers but it's new to me and I'm sure it will add to what may be going on with my car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89o5rLpbCgI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la6-EgnCOl4
Hopefully! The degree kit will be here the first of the week so I can get back to it. Anyway, I've been getting familiar with the degreeing process. Youtube is a wonderful site! I found a couple of good videos on how to adjust hydraulic lifters with the engine not running and also a good one on how to degree the cam in. You can watch them all day on there if you want. These are just a couple I picked out. I'm sure this is old stuff to you seasoned wrenchers but it's new to me and I'm sure it will add to what may be going on with my car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89o5rLpbCgI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la6-EgnCOl4
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,616
Likes: 5
From: Sandhills of North Carolina
Hopefully (barring any unforeseen complications) I'll know if the degree is correct on the cam today.
Have a question though......that is if I can start putting everything back together.
I don't have another timing cover gasket. The only way they come local is as a set. Can't I just use some Permatex Ultra Copper on the timing cover as a gasket? It should hold shouldn't it?
Have a question though......that is if I can start putting everything back together.
I don't have another timing cover gasket. The only way they come local is as a set. Can't I just use some Permatex Ultra Copper on the timing cover as a gasket? It should hold shouldn't it?
Last edited by Weav's Vet; Dec 5, 2009 at 07:21 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,517
Likes: 19
Hopefully (barring any unforeseen complications) I'll know if the degree is correct on the cam today.
Have a question though......that is if I can start putting everything back together.
I don't have another timing cover gasket. The only way they come local is as a set. Can't I just use some Permatex Ultra Copper on the timing cover as a gasket? It should hold shouldn't it?
Have a question though......that is if I can start putting everything back together.
I don't have another timing cover gasket. The only way they come local is as a set. Can't I just use some Permatex Ultra Copper on the timing cover as a gasket? It should hold shouldn't it?
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,616
Likes: 5
From: Sandhills of North Carolina
After a day of learning, aggravation and stopping for this and that I managed to get the cam degree checked. Cam card says 106 and I got readings of 107-107-106. What a pain doing this with the engine in the car......
Unless there is some issue with these springs I may have torn this thing back apart for nothing. Oh well, it was a learning experience for sure.
Unless there is some issue with these springs I may have torn this thing back apart for nothing. Oh well, it was a learning experience for sure.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 9,715
Likes: 27
From: Kempner Texas
Well, you've certainly put in the Sweat Equity. CONGRATS! If nothing else that eliminates the cam phasing as the cause. I feel for you about all the work involved.
So the cam is ground on 111 and installed on 106/107 which puts it four or five degrees advanced which, according the cam card, is where it's recommended. Yet you still lost, what was it, 26 HP from the earlier pull(s).
Okay, assuming no difference between the two dynos or how they were setup, since that's the case, what could be the cause?
Someone mentioned a jagged scan. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
I'm going to back-up now and see if there's anything else in this thread that may give a clue.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!
So the cam is ground on 111 and installed on 106/107 which puts it four or five degrees advanced which, according the cam card, is where it's recommended. Yet you still lost, what was it, 26 HP from the earlier pull(s).
Okay, assuming no difference between the two dynos or how they were setup, since that's the case, what could be the cause?
Someone mentioned a jagged scan. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
I'm going to back-up now and see if there's anything else in this thread that may give a clue.
Jake
West Point ROCKS! Nation's TOP COLLEGE per Forbes Magazine!! Graduation Day Parade 20 May 2010!!!