Budget 2-row radiator comparison
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 54,124
Likes: 30
From: Cincinnati, Oh USA
I believe electric water pumps utilize in part, stored energy. The energy they need to turn has been created long before the gas pedal was stuck to the floor (for example during the nice cruise to the track), hence the need to create the energy during the time you have the gas pedal to the floor has been previously solved by the alternator and storage device (battery) But, who knows, maybe I'm wrong. But what we do know, is that they increase HP when you press the go-pedal.... this is not new.
Albeit, its typically along the lines of 5-15 HP depending on how high you wind-up your motor and other variables. Its not a lot and the real asset is the ability to cool your motor in literally just a few minutes with the motor off while in the staging lanes..... versus the alternative of your hood open for 45 minutes in the pits waiting for it to cool. Extremely valuable for a bracket or heads-up racer.
Albeit, its typically along the lines of 5-15 HP depending on how high you wind-up your motor and other variables. Its not a lot and the real asset is the ability to cool your motor in literally just a few minutes with the motor off while in the staging lanes..... versus the alternative of your hood open for 45 minutes in the pits waiting for it to cool. Extremely valuable for a bracket or heads-up racer.
Please take notice that I have never said that a dyno will show lower HP with an electric water pump. What I have said and I repeat for clarification, an electric water pump requires more engine HP than a mechanical water pump WHEN both deliver the SAME output shaft HP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by jfb; Aug 21, 2011 at 10:47 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,524
Likes: 4
From: Hinckley Ohio
[QUOTE=jfb;1578482342][QUOTE=LT4BUD;1578482239]
load is determined by the coolant flow rate which is controlled by the thermostat opening. QUOTE]
When the engine is warmed up the coolant flow is essentially constant.....
With the mechanical water pump, flow also varies with engine rpm, as will the load impossed by the water pump on the engine....
So do you recommend removing electric cooling fans and replacing them with mechanically driven fans like in the old days?? Pretty similiar....
load is determined by the coolant flow rate which is controlled by the thermostat opening. QUOTE]
When the engine is warmed up the coolant flow is essentially constant.....With the mechanical water pump, flow also varies with engine rpm, as will the load impossed by the water pump on the engine....
So do you recommend removing electric cooling fans and replacing them with mechanically driven fans like in the old days?? Pretty similiar....
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 54,124
Likes: 30
From: Cincinnati, Oh USA
[QUOTE=LT4BUD;1578482465][QUOTE=jfb;1578482342]
load is determined by the coolant flow rate which is controlled by the thermostat opening. QUOTE]
When the engine is warmed up the coolant flow is essentially constant.....
With the mechanical water pump, flow also varies with engine rpm, as will the load impossed by the water pump on the engine....
So do you recommend removing electric cooling fans and replacing them with mechanically driven fans like in the old days?? Pretty similiar....
This is only true at and slightly above idle rpm. Mechanical water pumps have excess pumping ability very shortly above idle rpm otherwise your engine couldn't maintain constant coolant temp. My 64, 69, and 74 Corvettes had belt driven mechanical fans. I drove all of them every day year round and in 90 F summer temps, I drove down I75 from Miamisburg, Oh and got off at a short I275 off ramp and if I had to stop at the light, my coolant temp never budged from 180 F (same stat temp). I had GM spec idle rpms too!
load is determined by the coolant flow rate which is controlled by the thermostat opening. QUOTE]
When the engine is warmed up the coolant flow is essentially constant.....With the mechanical water pump, flow also varies with engine rpm, as will the load impossed by the water pump on the engine....
So do you recommend removing electric cooling fans and replacing them with mechanically driven fans like in the old days?? Pretty similiar....
This is only true at and slightly above idle rpm. Mechanical water pumps have excess pumping ability very shortly above idle rpm otherwise your engine couldn't maintain constant coolant temp. My 64, 69, and 74 Corvettes had belt driven mechanical fans. I drove all of them every day year round and in 90 F summer temps, I drove down I75 from Miamisburg, Oh and got off at a short I275 off ramp and if I had to stop at the light, my coolant temp never budged from 180 F (same stat temp). I had GM spec idle rpms too!
Pro
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 694
Likes: 27
From: St James New York
For those of you interested in why a DeWitts aluminum radiator costs more.
http://www.dewitts.com/download/cores.pdf
Like I said previously in this thread; Sometimes you get what you pay for! And others times you have no idea what you got or how long it might last!
Especially for those that bought shiny new made in China aluminum radiators, that look like a DeWitts on the outside but really aren't the same!
http://www.dewitts.com/download/cores.pdf
Like I said previously in this thread; Sometimes you get what you pay for! And others times you have no idea what you got or how long it might last!
Especially for those that bought shiny new made in China aluminum radiators, that look like a DeWitts on the outside but really aren't the same!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 2
From: California City Ca
I installed my new 3 core rad today it went very easy.
After filling the rad I let the car sit and idel to get the air pocket out of the system after the thermostat open I already notice it would not go past 208 degrees normaly just sitting there the temp would climb to 220 or 230 easy.
I will drive the car to work tomarrow and see how things work.
For $250.00 to my door I cant complain Yes a $500.00+ Rad would be nice I will worry about that down the road I already have put to much money into this car for now after a couple years I will most likley sink or empty more of my saving back into the car LOL.
Paint, seats door pnl's radio, Dash cluster, windshield, Wiper motor, 2 engine, 3 trans, A/C, A/C programer, new bushings, shocks, tires, OEM brakes, fuel pump, list keeps going all this in 1.5 year time span I done for a while.
It has spent more time in my gargae on jack stands beening rebuilt than I have driven it I owned for 2 years now.
After filling the rad I let the car sit and idel to get the air pocket out of the system after the thermostat open I already notice it would not go past 208 degrees normaly just sitting there the temp would climb to 220 or 230 easy.
I will drive the car to work tomarrow and see how things work.
For $250.00 to my door I cant complain Yes a $500.00+ Rad would be nice I will worry about that down the road I already have put to much money into this car for now after a couple years I will most likley sink or empty more of my saving back into the car LOL.
Paint, seats door pnl's radio, Dash cluster, windshield, Wiper motor, 2 engine, 3 trans, A/C, A/C programer, new bushings, shocks, tires, OEM brakes, fuel pump, list keeps going all this in 1.5 year time span I done for a while.
It has spent more time in my gargae on jack stands beening rebuilt than I have driven it I owned for 2 years now.
Last edited by Marv02; Aug 25, 2011 at 12:24 AM.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,221
Likes: 446
From: Overland Park Kansas
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
I installed my new 3 core rad today it went very easy.
After filling the rad I let the car sit and idel to get the air pocket out of the system after the thermostat open I already notice it would not go past 208 degrees normaly just sitting there the temp would climb to 220 or 230 easy.
For $250.00 to my door I cant complain.
After filling the rad I let the car sit and idel to get the air pocket out of the system after the thermostat open I already notice it would not go past 208 degrees normaly just sitting there the temp would climb to 220 or 230 easy.
For $250.00 to my door I cant complain.
I hope you're as happy about your selection as I am.
Originally Posted by Marv02
Yes a $500.00+ Rad would be nice.
:stickfingerinmouth/makepoppingsound/twirlfinger:
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,221
Likes: 446
From: Overland Park Kansas
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,765
Likes: 5
It has been a rough week for me & its only Wednesday.
I actually forgot what your intent is / was for this thread.
I can summarize for you in my own thoughts..........
F..... You that are non believers,
My China made $175 base price Champion radiator does work nicely in my 1989 C4 383 190AFR 6- speed Corvette.
And it does.
Other night I had it real rough on C4.
Yeah I have enemies back home.
My old buddies keep tabs on them for me.
Other guys have to guess who they are.
BR
Last edited by 87 vette 81 big girl; Aug 25, 2011 at 01:12 AM.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,221
Likes: 446
From: Overland Park Kansas
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
My 64, 69, and 74 Corvettes had belt driven mechanical fans. I drove all of them every day year round and in 90 F summer temps, I drove down I75 from Miamisburg, Oh and got off at a short I275 off ramp and if I had to stop at the light, my coolant temp never budged from 180 F (same stat temp). I had GM spec idle rpms too!
Most everyone converting to a stroker seems to upgrade water pump, radiator and fans. To me, it seemed reasonable to assume 2 of those 3 would be sufficient.
Course, I did buy a water pump from another forum member vs. directly from a vendor. I suppose it's possible he stiffed me and put a "standard-flow" waterpump in the PRW box before sending it to me. The seal was broken.
OTOH, I'm not complaining. I never complain about a good deal!
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,221
Likes: 446
From: Overland Park Kansas
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
Actually, the intent was to hear from Silla, Champion, and ECP owners. I could even add 2-row vs 3-row. Maybe even OEM knock-offs -- if there are any???? Again, I didn't say posts about "other" radiators wouldn't be frowned upon. Unless they are deragatory.
Within a few days/weeks, I was hoping to edit my OP and add references to threads or posts containing specific results after they were posted. That way people could read post #1, see the pics of various radiators, then read how they are working for customers.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,765
Likes: 5
Sorry, you're having a bad week. Hope it gets better. (BTW, My previous comment about thread direction wasn't aimed at you Brian!)
Actually, the intent was to hear from Silla, Champion, and ECP owners. I could even add 2-row vs 3-row. Maybe even OEM knock-offs -- if there are any???? Again, I didn't say posts about "other" radiators wouldn't be frowned upon. Unless they are deragatory.
Within a few days/weeks, I was hoping to edit my OP and add references to threads or posts containing specific results after they were posted. That way people could read post #1, see the pics of various radiators, then read how they are working for customers.
Actually, the intent was to hear from Silla, Champion, and ECP owners. I could even add 2-row vs 3-row. Maybe even OEM knock-offs -- if there are any???? Again, I didn't say posts about "other" radiators wouldn't be frowned upon. Unless they are deragatory.
Within a few days/weeks, I was hoping to edit my OP and add references to threads or posts containing specific results after they were posted. That way people could read post #1, see the pics of various radiators, then read how they are working for customers.
Both are very high strung people at times.
If you overlook & just read the facts.
Its all there stated by you prior.
My new Avitar is just for my old guys from home.........
They slammed me about 1-1/2 years ago in their 2 man forum.
Just came in mail Monday evening just prior to getting on C4.
This 41 year old mechanic can still ACE those ASE Tests.
Like to see the other 2 guys do the same.
BR
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,221
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From: Overland Park Kansas
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 773
Likes: 2
From: Minneapolis MN
Thanks Gregg for your threadI too want the Dewitts radiator but for the price of $170,& its lowered your temps,that makes my next radiator a no brainer.I too,am looking for budget upgrades when the time comes & enjoy these threads.I too know what the best parts are but cannot swing them so seeing budget threads that seem to do the same as higher dollar parts are awesome.Thanks for taking your time to do this.I thank you
I too want the Dewitts radiator but for the price of $170,& its lowered your temps,that makes my next radiator a no brainer.I too,am looking for budget upgrades when the time comes & enjoy these threads.I too know what the best parts are but cannot swing them so seeing budget threads that seem to do the same as higher dollar parts are awesome.Thanks for taking your time to do this.I thank you
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 2
From: California City Ca
My update I drove the car to work this morning drive it was 70 degrees goning to work the car stayed very cool 197 it has a 195 theromstat.
But on the way home totaly diffrent story it was 108 degrees outside the average water temp was 229 oil temp 259 before there was a 10 degree diffrence bewteen oil and water temp now theres a 20 degree diffrence.
We will see on a cooler normal day what kind of temps I be running now.
But on the way home totaly diffrent story it was 108 degrees outside the average water temp was 229 oil temp 259 before there was a 10 degree diffrence bewteen oil and water temp now theres a 20 degree diffrence.
We will see on a cooler normal day what kind of temps I be running now.
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,221
Likes: 446
From: Overland Park Kansas
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
My update I drove the car to work this morning drive it was 70 degrees goning to work the car stayed very cool 197 it has a 195 theromstat.
But on the way home totaly diffrent story it was 108 degrees outside the average water temp was 229 oil temp 259 before there was a 10 degree diffrence bewteen oil and water temp now theres a 20 degree diffrence.
We will see on a cooler normal day what kind of temps I be running now.
But on the way home totaly diffrent story it was 108 degrees outside the average water temp was 229 oil temp 259 before there was a 10 degree diffrence bewteen oil and water temp now theres a 20 degree diffrence.
We will see on a cooler normal day what kind of temps I be running now.
With 98-deg temps here, mine ran at 200 (water temp) with oil temps ranging from 190-206. I'm running 20w-50 right now.
Last edited by GREGGPENN; Aug 25, 2011 at 10:48 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 2
From: California City Ca
Yes it tuned right I have a PMC for less chip the only thing I chasing now after driving the car and comming to a stop the idel is hanging at 1300 RPM's for a mitue or to before it comes down to the 750 idel it set for.
And yes it a 383 mild build.
I set the base tim just have to find out why it hanging.
Is was HOT today.
[/I]
And yes it a 383 mild build.
I set the base tim just have to find out why it hanging.
Is was HOT today.
[/I]
Thread Starter
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,221
Likes: 446
From: Overland Park Kansas
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
Make sure you know your fan settings. May want to lower turn-on/turn-off based on your feedback. Mine are set to 195 but come on when guage says 205. There is a difference between head temp and stat temp (reason discussed earlier in this thread).
If you only paid for initial tune, you're probably not done.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 2
From: California City Ca
Okay how to adjust and how do you tell the IAC steps drop to 15.
I know how to do base timmming but not the 15 steps what do I do for the fan disconect them.
I know how to do base timmming but not the 15 steps what do I do for the fan disconect them.
Adjust idle set screw until IAC steps drop to 15 steps (when above 180-deg w/o fan running). Reset TPS for .54V with TB closed. That will fix it. Make sure timing is set to 6-deg with EST wire unplugged and hot.
Make sure you know your fan settings. May want to lower turn-on/turn-off based on your feedback. Mine are set to 195 but come on when guage says 205. There is a difference between head temp and stat temp (reason discussed earlier in this thread).
If you only paid for initial tune, you're probably not done.
Make sure you know your fan settings. May want to lower turn-on/turn-off based on your feedback. Mine are set to 195 but come on when guage says 205. There is a difference between head temp and stat temp (reason discussed earlier in this thread).
If you only paid for initial tune, you're probably not done.