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I'm curious on what spring rate are you running with the coilovers? A friend of mine is running a 1,000 pound spring with a Mike Maier, Inc. Custom Front Sway Bar on his 89 for an autocross setup. Me, I'm still using a 1,470 pound Vette Brakes & Products Adjustable mono spring with a Mike Maier, Inc. Remote Adjustable Front Sway Bar on my 89 for an autocross setup. Both cars are running the Penskes Triple Adjustables with a Mike Maier, Inc. valving.
its refreshing to see the above guys being able to discuss leaf v coilovers in a non argumentative and informative way.
I get pretty sick and tired of the anti coilover ramblings in many threads over a period of time now. Its quite clear that these people dont have any personal experience with fitting coilovers to their C4's or tracking them after being fitted to give any credible feedback. Toms favourite argument is "they got rid of their 30 year old shocks and fitted new shocks so thats the only reason their car handles better" Well it may surprise him that that isnt always the case, many people, myself included, have been down the road of swapping out springs, shockers, swaybars, bushings etc before going to the coilover swap. Before going to coilovers I had adjustable pressurised gas shocks that were pretty good shocks and performed well. Fitted coilovers to the front and the car was instantly and significantly quicker, well according to the electronic timing equipment because they dont use SOTP timing at any of the tracks I run at.
I will say that I have fitted QA1 double adjustable coilovers to the rear and the car has been no quicker. I have started to experiment with different swaybars in the rear. When you swap to coilovers (front and rear) it does necessitate sway bar changes in my experience to get the best out of the setup.
Perhaps anybody who wants to engage in theoretical arguing can start their own thread on the subject and stop hijacking other peoples threads.
If anybody wants to talk about coilovers, spring rates, swaybars etc Im happy to contribute as a result of my experience. Im not interested in theoretical arguing with people who have their own agenda.
Also, there have been occasions when a coilover is installed on the rear without any modification to the lower shock mount, you will have a serious catastrophic failure down the line. The rear lower shock mount was not designed to take those kind of forces. The front upper mounts was also not designed to take those forces but, I have not heard of any serious failures. I have heard of the mounts developing cracks.
So far, my 89 Autocross car weighing a tad under 3,000 pounds with the VBP Adjustable 1470 pound front spring with a Mike Maier remote adjustable custom swaybar and Penskes Triple Adjustable shocks and a rear VBP 837 pound rear spring with no bar and Penske triple adjustable shocks work just fine and I do not have any plans on making any changes except the adjustments that I have in the corner weights and shocks, etc. My car works very well.
Also, there have been occasions when a coilover is installed on the rear without any modification to the lower shock mount, you will have a serious catastrophic failure down the line. The rear lower shock mount was not designed to take those kind of forces. The front upper mounts was also not designed to take those forces but, I have not heard of any serious failures. I have heard of the mounts developing cracks.
The does seem to be a real concern on the rear of these cars. In general, we know that instantaneous shock loads are far higher than event he stiffest spring loads once could feed through those rear mounting ears. So I've never thought that coilovers should cause structural failures if they mount in the same place as the shocks do by themselves. When we look at the front mounts of a C4 or the strut tower mounts of many other cars that often get converted, we don't see failures. What I think I see going on at the rear of a C4 is two things, though.
The mount is an aluminum ear in single shear, unlike any front mount I've seen. And whereas a shock adds nearly zero force when the car is at rest, and also adds a force in the opposite direction of compression when the suspension rebounds; with a coilover setup it is always seeing some compression force even when the car is at rest. So I wonder if this fatigues the aluminum in some way that is fundamentally different than the shock by itself?
In order to make a coilover fit, every setup I've seen adds some extension to the ear to move the coilover away from the other suspension links. This increases the moment arm of the cantilevered, single-shear mount. Combined with the above, we know that some have experienced structural failures of the aluminum mounting ear.
Going back to the steel mount that Chris Ramey fabricated, it does two important things. First, it substitutes a steel mounting ear for the cast-aluminum one. Second, it distributes the load over a majority of the knuckle rather than just one localized point. In another thread, it was measured that the Van Steel rear coilover mount only increases the moment arm on the ear about 0.5" (IIRC that's only a 25% increase in moment), so there may be some setups that are better at minimizing the breaking force than others. I'm not sure.
So far, my 89 Autocross car weighing a tad under 3,000 pounds with the VBP Adjustable 1470 pound front spring with a Mike Maier remote adjustable custom swaybar and Penskes Triple Adjustable shocks and a rear VBP 837 pound rear spring with no bar and Penske triple adjustable shocks work just fine and I do not have any plans on making any changes except the adjustments that I have in the corner weights and shocks, etc. My car works very well.
I think it might be time to put blackozvet on ignore. Every time anyone tries to have a useful, fact-based discussion about spring setups he comes in tries to rekindle an argument that never really had any other participants in the first place: "You hate coil springs, coil springs are magic." He doesn't understand how springs fundamentally work and has no actual data to back up his claims. Even in the post above, you'll see that he tries to imply that he did a controlled back-to-back test of leaf springs vs coilovers ("Before going to coilovers I had adjustable pressurised gas shocks that were pretty good shocks and performed well"). However, in that comparison he actually did change shocks and no doubt also changed spring rates, as well as possibly ride height and definitely spring geometry. So he doesn't know what he's talking about.
The fact is that either form of spring can do an equally good job of providing a desired wheel rate to a car. So can torsion springs. It's just that there's no magic that winding a flat spring into a coil will create that makes cars suddenly faster. Blacozvet doesn't understand that, and instead of actually trying to learn and participate in the discussion he wants to throw tantrums and hold his breath until he passes out.
its refreshing to see the above guys being able to discuss leaf v coilovers in a non argumentative and informative way.
....Toms favourite argument is .....
Perhaps anybody who wants to engage in theoretical arguing can start their own thread on the subject and stop hijacking other peoples threads.
Wait....isn't ^that^...."starting an argument? Sure looks like to to me. Make sure you keep "theory" and science out of the topic! With that, I'll leave it alone though. You're quote of me, says all that needs to be said.
It would appear that the C4 Sheriff and Deputy Sheriff want to run me out of town !
I for one really REALLY appreciate the fact and data based discussion that tom mat and nokones have brought to the table. havnt detected even a sniff of anything untoward.
Just sayin, blackoz, what you may take as personal or offensive, others (like me) may appreciate thier directness.
thnx for contributing all of you. im learning a heap about the subject from you.
It would appear that the C4 Sheriff and Deputy Sheriff want to run me out of town !
To the contrary, I've asked you repeatedly to participate in meaningful ways. The fact that you continue to pick fights instead of participating meaningfully is on you.
this reminds me of a story,
once upon a time in a far away place there were 2 little boys, lets just call them Tom and Matthew, who loved their billycarts.
They would go down to the playground between billycart races and talk billycart stuff with all their friends. All the billycarts were fitted with leaf springs that were sourced from old horse carts lying around the area. All the boys enjoyed their discussion time down at the playground, despite the occasional argument.
One day one of the other boys arrived at the playground with coil springs on his billycart, the other boys gathered eagerly around his billycart as he explained the benefits and advantages of the coil springs. Tom and Matthew werent too happy, they had built up a reputation as the local authorities on everything leaf spring and now the other boys were mesmerized by this new concept.
As the boys dragged their carts home the newspaper stuffed in their shoes reminded them that they would never be able to afford these new fangled coil springs like the other kids. Each trip to the playground produced more coil springs and more talk about these springs.
As the boys dragged their carts home again, their Uncle Bob (because everyone has an Uncle Bob) saw their sad little faces and asked what was wrong ? They explained that the other boys were fitting coil springs to their billycarts, and that they were even winning billycart races with these new springs fitted.
Uncle Bob was well known amongst family and friends for his ability to argue endlessly on almost any topic at gatherings.
As the boys were tucking into bed that night Uncle Bob came in to read them a bedtime story, he had been down to the barn and dragged out his Old Testament Book of Leaf Springs. The boys were excited as he regaled them with tales of springs and explained endlessly (as he adept at doing) on how there was no difference whatsover between leaf and coil springs. "springs are springs are springs" he would chant loudly as the boys joined in ! The boys had been cheered up and looked forward eagerly to their next playground visit. The 2 boys were chips off the old block and ready to win that theoretical argument.
The next afternoon the 2 boys rolled into the playground with a real swagger, as they engaged the other boys in a leaf spring versus coil spring argument that started to get pretty heated. One of the other boys (who had a funny accent so they didnt really like him) tried to defend the new coil concept but they had learnt their lessons well from Uncle Bob. When long winded technical rants on springs didnt work, they tried chanting "springs are springs are springs" when this didnt work they resorted to some mean spirited personal comments. Well the other boys were intimidated by the 2 boys tactics and didnt want to be subject to them, so they slunk away quietly, and thus ended this coil spring uprising in the playground.
...and "the other boys" never answered or acknowledged some basic fundamental questions. Well...at least ^that post was fact based and constructive. Right?
Hey looking at the upside, at least...
Originally Posted by blackozvet
its refreshing to see the above guys being able to discuss leaf v coilovers in a non argumentative and informative way.
This has been a Closer Look.
.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; Feb 19, 2019 at 01:02 PM.
this reminds me of a story,
once upon a time in a far away place there were 2 little boys, lets just call them Tom and Matthew, who loved their billycarts.
They would go down to the playground between billycart races and talk billycart stuff with all their friends. All the billycarts were fitted with leaf springs that were sourced from old horse carts lying around the area. All the boys enjoyed their discussion time down at the playground, despite the occasional argument.
One day one of the other boys arrived at the playground with coil springs on his billycart, the other boys gathered eagerly around his billycart as he explained the benefits and advantages of the coil springs. Tom and Matthew werent too happy, they had built up a reputation as the local authorities on everything leaf spring and now the other boys were mesmerized by this new concept.
As the boys dragged their carts home the newspaper stuffed in their shoes reminded them that they would never be able to afford these new fangled coil springs like the other kids. Each trip to the playground produced more coil springs and more talk about these springs.
As the boys dragged their carts home again, their Uncle Bob (because everyone has an Uncle Bob) saw their sad little faces and asked what was wrong ? They explained that the other boys were fitting coil springs to their billycarts, and that they were even winning billycart races with these new springs fitted.
Uncle Bob was well known amongst family and friends for his ability to argue endlessly on almost any topic at gatherings.
As the boys were tucking into bed that night Uncle Bob came in to read them a bedtime story, he had been down to the barn and dragged out his Old Testament Book of Leaf Springs. The boys were excited as he regaled them with tales of springs and explained endlessly (as he adept at doing) on how there was no difference whatsover between leaf and coil springs. "springs are springs are springs" he would chant loudly as the boys joined in ! The boys had been cheered up and looked forward eagerly to their next playground visit. The 2 boys were chips off the old block and ready to win that theoretical argument.
The next afternoon the 2 boys rolled into the playground with a real swagger, as they engaged the other boys in a leaf spring versus coil spring argument that started to get pretty heated. One of the other boys (who had a funny accent so they didnt really like him) tried to defend the new coil concept but they had learnt their lessons well from Uncle Bob. When long winded technical rants on springs didnt work, they tried chanting "springs are springs are springs" when this didnt work they resorted to some mean spirited personal comments. Well the other boys were intimidated by the 2 boys tactics and didnt want to be subject to them, so they slunk away quietly, and thus ended this coil spring uprising in the playground.
Those weren't fundamental questions, those were a test if to before was documented. Since it's an early car there are less aftermarket options than the later cars. Following the thread from beginning to end, the conversation shifted where it started to how it ended.
Since Topic was DIY FRONT COILOVER SETUP. Topic was aftermarket performance front springs cost so much installing homemade coilover is viable option. So what was on his car prior is unimportant not actually part of the conversation. VBP never made a adjustable high rate front spring for the early car. Now the VBP is gone it unclear if they will be available in the future for any C4. Jumping in about the value of leaf springs while you aren't using a stock springs is somewhat hijacking the thread. No matter the first half of the thread has value.
Since Topic was DIY FRONT COILOVER SETUP. Topic was aftermarket performance front springs cost so much installing homemade coilover is viable option. So what was on his car prior is unimportant not actually part of the conversation. VBP never made a adjustable high rate front spring for the early car. Now the VBP is gone it unclear if they will be available in the future for any C4. Jumping in about the value of leaf springs while you aren't using a stock springs is somewhat hijacking the thread. No matter the first half of the thread has value.
Actually, although the thread started on the topic as you noted, it took a bit of a tangent when blackozvet claimed that coil springs are more efficient than leaf springs. That's like saying a blue car is more efficient than a red car. That claim then extended to claims about how coil springs magically solve problems in handling that leaf springs don't. Then, as proof, he offered up his experience with his own coilover conversion. The questions I asked are basic to any valid test: what are the variables that were actually tested? As it turns out, there were many variables all being tested at once (wheel rate, damping curves, ride height, etc.), and so the physical form of the spring cannot be isolated as the cause for any changes in handling or track times.
I don't think anyone here said that converting to coilovers is a bad idea. It's just bad to expect magical solutions that don't exist in reality. It's even worse to present those magical qualities as "facts" to other people asking for advice. If you have a flat spring that, with one end clamped solid, requires 500lbs to deflect the other end 1"; and then wind it into a coil...you still have a spring with a rate of 500lb/in. It's just in a coil shape. It has no magical qualities.
your 85 is it a track or street car. I keep wanting to install the coilovers. I think that with the coilovers the suspension is truly independent. But I worry that the coilovers will be too stiff for street use. This car will rarely see the track.
X2
