2001 zo6 twin turbo
06-17-2006, 09:23 AM
#41
Drifting
Member Since: Oct 2002
Location: Decatur IN
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This is why the forum never ceases to amaze me. Someone asks a simple question, and I offer a suggestion that is well within his proposed budget, and immediately, a handfull of "experts" feel the need to chime in and start bashing us about cost. Let's face it, every FI car that gets built does not need every signle "widget" on the market, as some would like you to believe. I'm not going to name any names, but some of the parts out there that members claim to be must have items, do absolutely nothing, yet people keep pushing them.
When a customer calls here for the first time, the first thing we want to know is how are you going to be using the car, then we sell you what you need for that use. In other words, if you are using the car for the occasional sunday drive, weekend cruiser type, then you don't need every forged doo-dad on the market, and we don't try to push them on you.
On the same note, if you tell us you are going to drag race the car, and beat the snot out of it, then we suggest the parts that we know are needed to withstand that type of abuse. We have run Corvettes just as hard as anybody, and we use that knowledge to build a car that's suited for the owners needs.
One other thing, that 1000 HP C6 for 225K was a one off, completely custom car that had everything hand fabricated. It was also one of the first C6 Vette's in private hands when we started on it. If any of you have ever bought the latest sportscar available, and made a total custom monster out of it, then you are aware of the cost involved. If you think "shop X" or the "DIY" crowd could duplicate that car (2 yrs ago!) for considerably less, then you are dreaming.
Sorry to rant a little, but sometimes a little clarification is needed.
Ed
When a customer calls here for the first time, the first thing we want to know is how are you going to be using the car, then we sell you what you need for that use. In other words, if you are using the car for the occasional sunday drive, weekend cruiser type, then you don't need every forged doo-dad on the market, and we don't try to push them on you.
On the same note, if you tell us you are going to drag race the car, and beat the snot out of it, then we suggest the parts that we know are needed to withstand that type of abuse. We have run Corvettes just as hard as anybody, and we use that knowledge to build a car that's suited for the owners needs.
One other thing, that 1000 HP C6 for 225K was a one off, completely custom car that had everything hand fabricated. It was also one of the first C6 Vette's in private hands when we started on it. If any of you have ever bought the latest sportscar available, and made a total custom monster out of it, then you are aware of the cost involved. If you think "shop X" or the "DIY" crowd could duplicate that car (2 yrs ago!) for considerably less, then you are dreaming.
Sorry to rant a little, but sometimes a little clarification is needed.
Ed
06-17-2006, 11:57 AM
#42
NCM, WSCC & SCC Member
Originally Posted by Ed@Lingenfelter
This is why the forum never ceases to amaze me. Someone asks a simple question, and I offer a suggestion that is well within his proposed budget, and immediately, a handfull of "experts" feel the need to chime in and start bashing us about cost. Let's face it, every FI car that gets built does not need every signle "widget" on the market, as some would like you to believe. I'm not going to name any names, but some of the parts out there that members claim to be must have items, do absolutely nothing, yet people keep pushing them.
When a customer calls here for the first time, the first thing we want to know is how are you going to be using the car, then we sell you what you need for that use. In other words, if you are using the car for the occasional sunday drive, weekend cruiser type, then you don't need every forged doo-dad on the market, and we don't try to push them on you.
On the same note, if you tell us you are going to drag race the car, and beat the snot out of it, then we suggest the parts that we know are needed to withstand that type of abuse. We have run Corvettes just as hard as anybody, and we use that knowledge to build a car that's suited for the owners needs.
One other thing, that 1000 HP C6 for 225K was a one off, completely custom car that had everything hand fabricated. It was also one of the first C6 Vette's in private hands when we started on it. If any of you have ever bought the latest sportscar available, and made a total custom monster out of it, then you are aware of the cost involved. If you think "shop X" or the "DIY" crowd could duplicate that car (2 yrs ago!) for considerably less, then you are dreaming.
Sorry to rant a little, but sometimes a little clarification is needed.
Ed
When a customer calls here for the first time, the first thing we want to know is how are you going to be using the car, then we sell you what you need for that use. In other words, if you are using the car for the occasional sunday drive, weekend cruiser type, then you don't need every forged doo-dad on the market, and we don't try to push them on you.
On the same note, if you tell us you are going to drag race the car, and beat the snot out of it, then we suggest the parts that we know are needed to withstand that type of abuse. We have run Corvettes just as hard as anybody, and we use that knowledge to build a car that's suited for the owners needs.
One other thing, that 1000 HP C6 for 225K was a one off, completely custom car that had everything hand fabricated. It was also one of the first C6 Vette's in private hands when we started on it. If any of you have ever bought the latest sportscar available, and made a total custom monster out of it, then you are aware of the cost involved. If you think "shop X" or the "DIY" crowd could duplicate that car (2 yrs ago!) for considerably less, then you are dreaming.
Sorry to rant a little, but sometimes a little clarification is needed.
Ed
I cannot agree with you more, but then again I have been there, done that and finally I am very aware the of costs of custom car like such as the one in your last paragraph. It is, what it is.
I would like to see any other company with as much magazine coverage, place second in One Lap with a TT Corvette, race with a Kenne Bell on track this weekend, etc., etc. about two dozen more things.
Brent
06-17-2006, 12:03 PM
#43
Team Owner
Originally Posted by Ed@Lingenfelter
...and immediately, a handfull of "experts" feel the need to chime in and start bashing us about cost.
06-17-2006, 12:10 PM
#44
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jan 2003
Location: Portland Oregon
Posts: 8,596
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Originally Posted by Ed@Lingenfelter
This is why the forum never ceases to amaze me. Someone asks a simple question, and I offer a suggestion that is well within his proposed budget, and immediately, a handfull of "experts" feel the need to chime in and start bashing us about cost. Let's face it, every FI car that gets built does not need every signle "widget" on the market, as some would like you to believe. I'm not going to name any names, but some of the parts out there that members claim to be must have items, do absolutely nothing, yet people keep pushing them.
When a customer calls here for the first time, the first thing we want to know is how are you going to be using the car, then we sell you what you need for that use. In other words, if you are using the car for the occasional sunday drive, weekend cruiser type, then you don't need every forged doo-dad on the market, and we don't try to push them on you.
On the same note, if you tell us you are going to drag race the car, and beat the snot out of it, then we suggest the parts that we know are needed to withstand that type of abuse. We have run Corvettes just as hard as anybody, and we use that knowledge to build a car that's suited for the owners needs.
One other thing, that 1000 HP C6 for 225K was a one off, completely custom car that had everything hand fabricated. It was also one of the first C6 Vette's in private hands when we started on it. If any of you have ever bought the latest sportscar available, and made a total custom monster out of it, then you are aware of the cost involved. If you think "shop X" or the "DIY" crowd could duplicate that car (2 yrs ago!) for considerably less, then you are dreaming.
Sorry to rant a little, but sometimes a little clarification is needed.
Ed
When a customer calls here for the first time, the first thing we want to know is how are you going to be using the car, then we sell you what you need for that use. In other words, if you are using the car for the occasional sunday drive, weekend cruiser type, then you don't need every forged doo-dad on the market, and we don't try to push them on you.
On the same note, if you tell us you are going to drag race the car, and beat the snot out of it, then we suggest the parts that we know are needed to withstand that type of abuse. We have run Corvettes just as hard as anybody, and we use that knowledge to build a car that's suited for the owners needs.
One other thing, that 1000 HP C6 for 225K was a one off, completely custom car that had everything hand fabricated. It was also one of the first C6 Vette's in private hands when we started on it. If any of you have ever bought the latest sportscar available, and made a total custom monster out of it, then you are aware of the cost involved. If you think "shop X" or the "DIY" crowd could duplicate that car (2 yrs ago!) for considerably less, then you are dreaming.
Sorry to rant a little, but sometimes a little clarification is needed.
Ed
By that I mean that people read these forums and take the advice of others as the gospel. When some of the people that give the advice are just "forum" experts that got their expertise from reading the forum in the first place. And its just not here in the CF you see it in all forums.I have several customers that want a lot of power, they don't drag race the car but they just want the power for whatever the reason. Just as you mentioned for these guys they don't need every forged do-dad and that keeps the cost down and it gets me the job! In another case a friend of mine has a 40 Ford street rod. It has a 427 SBC with Brodix heads, Hilborn EFI with C5 Electronic throttle control and using a GM MEFI controller that made nearly 750 HP at the crank. The car is running all C5 running gear, he had all the hardened goodies installed in the rear end and had the M6 trans modified as well. I did the final tune on my Mustang chassis dyno and the car made just under 600 at the wheels!
After the final tune I called my friend to come out and take the car out for a drive. Going around the corner to a straight stretch he hammered the throttle and the damn thing tweaked the driveline
The only thing he didn't replace was the rubber driveline couplers. I figured that it deflected and threw the driveline out of alignment and thats when it twisted the snot out of it. LG Motorsports has since made him a all carbon fiber driveline and he hasn't had an issue since. This was one customer that needed the forged do-dads! Even though the car is a show car street rod, Lonnie drives the **** out of it!http://members.aol.com/tjwong008/public/lonnie-2.jpg
http://members.aol.com/tjwong008/public/lonnie-5.jpg
Last edited by tjwong; 06-17-2006 at 12:15 PM.
06-17-2006, 12:20 PM
#45
Team Owner
Originally Posted by tjwong
people read these forums and take the advice of others as the gospel.
06-17-2006, 01:10 PM
#46
NCM, WSCC &amp;amp; SCC Member
Mark, be very specific.
I can tell you my case, my car has been running for months at more rwhp than your setup. Yes, it was being adjusted. It is currently running at 7 psi.. Rick has been turning up the boost slowly to identify problems. Every good shop, even LPE does that one off cars, including the KB 402 they are putting on the road course this weekend. It also takes time to do SD tune. The high end is being down now.
I can also tell you I paid in full for any services rendered, as well as full retail on almost all my parts. I have this down to penny each and every year and have each and every invoice to the day I obtained this vehicle in 2000.
In this case, it really came down to a lack of shop resources, in case you wondering. Rick recently obtained one his mechanics back from a dealership and had to replace another with another seasoned guy.
They were also in the middle of new product role out, press releases, normal business, etc..
I can tell you my case, my car has been running for months at more rwhp than your setup. Yes, it was being adjusted. It is currently running at 7 psi.. Rick has been turning up the boost slowly to identify problems. Every good shop, even LPE does that one off cars, including the KB 402 they are putting on the road course this weekend. It also takes time to do SD tune. The high end is being down now.
I can also tell you I paid in full for any services rendered, as well as full retail on almost all my parts. I have this down to penny each and every year and have each and every invoice to the day I obtained this vehicle in 2000.
In this case, it really came down to a lack of shop resources, in case you wondering. Rick recently obtained one his mechanics back from a dealership and had to replace another with another seasoned guy.
They were also in the middle of new product role out, press releases, normal business, etc..
Last edited by #001 2001 Z06; 06-17-2006 at 03:51 PM.
06-17-2006, 03:29 PM
#47
Premium Supporting Vendor
Originally Posted by #001 2001 Z06
Mark, be very specific.
I can tell you my case, my car has been running for months at more rwhp than your setup. Yes, it was being adjusted. It is currently running at 7 psi.. Rick has been turning up the boost slowly to identify peoblems. Every good shop, even LPE does that one off cars, including KB 402 they are putting on the road course this weekend. It also takes time to do SD tune. The high end is being down now.
I can also tell you I paid in full for any services rendered, as well as full retail on almost all my parts. I have this down to penny each and every year and have each and every invoice to the day I obtained this vehicle in 2000.
In this case, it really came down to a lack of shop resources, in case you wondering. Rick recently obtained one his mechanics back from a dealership and had to replace another with another seasoned guy.
They were also in the middle of new product role out, press, normal business, etc..
I can tell you my case, my car has been running for months at more rwhp than your setup. Yes, it was being adjusted. It is currently running at 7 psi.. Rick has been turning up the boost slowly to identify peoblems. Every good shop, even LPE does that one off cars, including KB 402 they are putting on the road course this weekend. It also takes time to do SD tune. The high end is being down now.
I can also tell you I paid in full for any services rendered, as well as full retail on almost all my parts. I have this down to penny each and every year and have each and every invoice to the day I obtained this vehicle in 2000.
In this case, it really came down to a lack of shop resources, in case you wondering. Rick recently obtained one his mechanics back from a dealership and had to replace another with another seasoned guy.
They were also in the middle of new product role out, press, normal business, etc..
You have learned nothing from the last thread.
06-17-2006, 04:07 PM
#48
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by Ed@Lingenfelter
This is why the forum never ceases to amaze me. Someone asks a simple question, and I offer a suggestion that is well within his proposed budget, and immediately, a handfull of "experts" feel the need to chime in and start bashing us about cost. Let's face it, every FI car that gets built does not need every signle "widget" on the market, as some would like you to believe. I'm not going to name any names, but some of the parts out there that members claim to be must have items, do absolutely nothing, yet people keep pushing them.
When a customer calls here for the first time, the first thing we want to know is how are you going to be using the car, then we sell you what you need for that use. In other words, if you are using the car for the occasional sunday drive, weekend cruiser type, then you don't need every forged doo-dad on the market, and we don't try to push them on you.
On the same note, if you tell us you are going to drag race the car, and beat the snot out of it, then we suggest the parts that we know are needed to withstand that type of abuse. We have run Corvettes just as hard as anybody, and we use that knowledge to build a car that's suited for the owners needs.
One other thing, that 1000 HP C6 for 225K was a one off, completely custom car that had everything hand fabricated. It was also one of the first C6 Vette's in private hands when we started on it. If any of you have ever bought the latest sportscar available, and made a total custom monster out of it, then you are aware of the cost involved. If you think "shop X" or the "DIY" crowd could duplicate that car (2 yrs ago!) for considerably less, then you are dreaming.
Sorry to rant a little, but sometimes a little clarification is needed.
Ed
When a customer calls here for the first time, the first thing we want to know is how are you going to be using the car, then we sell you what you need for that use. In other words, if you are using the car for the occasional sunday drive, weekend cruiser type, then you don't need every forged doo-dad on the market, and we don't try to push them on you.
On the same note, if you tell us you are going to drag race the car, and beat the snot out of it, then we suggest the parts that we know are needed to withstand that type of abuse. We have run Corvettes just as hard as anybody, and we use that knowledge to build a car that's suited for the owners needs.
One other thing, that 1000 HP C6 for 225K was a one off, completely custom car that had everything hand fabricated. It was also one of the first C6 Vette's in private hands when we started on it. If any of you have ever bought the latest sportscar available, and made a total custom monster out of it, then you are aware of the cost involved. If you think "shop X" or the "DIY" crowd could duplicate that car (2 yrs ago!) for considerably less, then you are dreaming.
Sorry to rant a little, but sometimes a little clarification is needed.
Ed
I don't think that anyone bashed LPE. I think the discussion started to lean towards pricing and what the person could get for the stated budget. I'm not sure why you are so angry. You guys know that you offer quality parts and services at a premium price. You have never set out to be the low-cost leader. Your products are some of the most well known and respected. Listing alternatives (to LPE) isn't bashing its providing information. Not everyone has the money to be an LPE -customer. Some people are more value-oriented. I am not saying that your services aren't a good value. Its just that everyone's sense of value is different.
Re: internet experts...when looking for advice, make sure the person talking has at least had some REAL exposure or experience with what they are talking about.
06-17-2006, 06:50 PM
#49
Premium Supporting Vendor
Originally Posted by Earl H
Re: internet experts...when looking for advice, make sure the person talking has at least had some REAL exposure or experience with what they are talking about.
06-17-2006, 07:36 PM
#50
Team Owner
Originally Posted by #001 2001 Z06
I can tell you my case, my car has been running for months at more rwhp than your setup.
06-17-2006, 09:17 PM
#51
Premium Supporting Vendor
Originally Posted by mdhmi
I have seen no evidence whatsoever that would indicate that is the case. Do you have any dyno or track #'s?
06-17-2006, 09:17 PM
#52
Instructor
Member Since: May 2006
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 191
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Cost & Value
Originally Posted by Earl H
Everyone has their own definition of value. Everyone has their idea of what they want their car to be. LPE has definitely earned the reputation. I bought my car back when they were the only game in town for turbos and when there weren't many options for heads, cams, reliable non-stock displacment blocks. At the time S/C's were pretty much the only option of FI that didn't cost a fortune. Times have changed dramatically. We have three or four manufacturers of aftermarket heads. We have OEM large bore blocks and heads available. Hell there are more turbo kits now than S/C kits 
. Some will prefer the simplicity of an LPE setup. It has its place. It will be the closest thing to fill up and go as you can get. All FI setups have their issues crop up. MarkTTC5 has stated that very well. It is to be expected. If you want to make big power without writing a $40K check, LPE isn't the most economical option. There are many proven kits out there and an unlimited number of combos available for anyone that takes the time to look and do research. Its not cutting edge stuff anymore. The cool things is, it doesn't have to cost a fortune to do it. The important thing is and I've said this before...figure out what matters to you most and build a combo that meets those requirements. There are a lot of people bashing the STS. There were people that bashed my first turbo system. At the end of the day they all can make good power. My first setup up made 750rwhp on meth. When choosing a system, it really comes down to budget, driving style, personal preferences and the ability to deal with the tradeoffs of a given system. Some guys make the buy on impulse and then defend the decision to death even when its obvious that they didn't get what they "wanted" or expected.
. Some will prefer the simplicity of an LPE setup. It has its place. It will be the closest thing to fill up and go as you can get. All FI setups have their issues crop up. MarkTTC5 has stated that very well. It is to be expected. If you want to make big power without writing a $40K check, LPE isn't the most economical option. There are many proven kits out there and an unlimited number of combos available for anyone that takes the time to look and do research. Its not cutting edge stuff anymore. The cool things is, it doesn't have to cost a fortune to do it. The important thing is and I've said this before...figure out what matters to you most and build a combo that meets those requirements. There are a lot of people bashing the STS. There were people that bashed my first turbo system. At the end of the day they all can make good power. My first setup up made 750rwhp on meth. When choosing a system, it really comes down to budget, driving style, personal preferences and the ability to deal with the tradeoffs of a given system. Some guys make the buy on impulse and then defend the decision to death even when its obvious that they didn't get what they "wanted" or expected.
06-17-2006, 09:24 PM
#54
Originally Posted by msb184
The MTI GTO cost about ONE-THIRD as much and went nearly as fast with an STS muffler replacement. Just because you can buy something does not make it better. ECS,MTI,Vette Dr's,TTi, STS & many others can do that job for half of that 25k. You could build a forged motor with the other 12.5k. If bragging is important get an LPE decal for each valve cover.
06-17-2006, 09:49 PM
#55
Team Owner
Originally Posted by MARK's_C5TT
here come the HP wars
I posted my low boost dyno sheet - why won't he? If he were a serious street racer and had some grudge matches set up I could understand being hush hush about some of the mertrics, but as far as I know that isn't the case. I can only conclude that his combo isn't making much power or the spool stinks (although I think that would be pretty hard to accomplish with a 427).
Oh, and by the way - someone needs to grow a pair and stop running to the mods every time they see a post they don't like and getting it locked/removed.
06-17-2006, 11:56 PM
#56
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by msb184
I have been critical of LPE prices/value. No disrespect meant to John L. He was a nice guy & a truly gifted man. .He ran in COMP ELIMINATOR with his A/ED, so he pitted fairly close to us several times. Always modest & helpful if you asked. His parts were expensive but you got what you paid for. Here is an example. He used Oliver rods a lot. Look at old catalogs or mag. atiicles and when hard parts are listed there they are. Now look at the LPE web site at the 427. NO-NAME(i.e.chinese) parts,not 1 brand name listed .Is that worth 25k unblown?? Some on this forum are LPE fans & state they bought their motor years ago. For a period after Mr. L passed things remained unchanged.Call & asked who makes their parts now. Oliver rods cost 1450+ list, imported rods are 300 or so. The point is are you buying a name with a bunch of generic parts? In the old days you knew what you bought, premium name brand parts.If you bought CNC heads they were Brodix or Dart etc. That Motor Trend article said it best. Go back & read the old M/T article when M/T tested a nearly identical vehicle with John L. in charge .It went 9.0,(later 8's), this car was stated to be 1100 hp. This years car claimed 1000hp or more & barely outran the 06 ZO-6. When you pay double the going price are you getting what you paid for? The MTI GTO cost about ONE-THIRD as much and went nearly as fast with an STS muffler replacement. Just because you can buy something does not make it better. ECS,MTI,Vette Dr's,TTi, STS & many others can do that job for half of that 25k. You could build a forged motor with the other 12.5k. If bragging is important get an LPE decal for each valve cover.
Note: With time, comes competition. Many of today's tuners (Cartek, ECS and you cant forget SE Michigan's Dr. Phil)can now stake their claim to the "Best" title. With so much "hungry" competition, its hard for me to believe that LPE would let their quality deteriorate.
Last edited by Earl H; 06-18-2006 at 12:06 AM.
06-18-2006, 01:25 AM
#59
Team Owner
Originally Posted by Vince99FRC
With all this drama on which twin turbo system is the best I am glad I am going single..
Any word on when your single turbo setup will be ready to rock?
06-18-2006, 02:08 AM
#60
Race Director
Originally Posted by mdhmi
I spot checked LPE's website to see what they use in ther 650 TT motor: JE pistons and Manley rods.
