Welcome to the forum. I have heard nothing but good things aobut you and your shop. Some folks here are a little sensitive when it comes to any HP challenge. You made some good points and have stated your opinion well now settle back and await the flack. Once agaon welcome.

 

Okay Mr. Dyno, so we're running 10mph faster in the 1/4 mile than a 405hp Z06, but we're not actually making 100 more HP??? Are you saying Chevy is lying when they say the Z06 is 405hp? I think you just need to face the facts that these cars are making power. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not true. :troll

 

:cheers: Now that is awesome at 11:1

For all I care your car could make 300RWHP

10's NA on stock bottom end :cheers: (same with the other cartek guys)

I just want to be the man that goes 10.90 @ 89 MPH :) :) :) :):):):):):)

 

Ron,I don't know who your post is directed at,but all I can say is I agree,there are some tuners that inflate there numbers and cheat,without track numbers to back them up,dyno numbers don't mean squat to me.You were at the Breathless shootout in Florida back in February,in fact you and Myron from TPIS were at Cartek's trailer and looked pretty damn impressed at the domination the Cartek cars had at the track that day,in fact Myron from TPIS was so impressed,he offered Julio his new modified throttle body,intake to try on one of the cars,do you remember that???Then the rains came and racing was done for the day.Cartek is the only tuner backing up big H/C dyno numbers at the TRACK in a C5,not an F-BODY with 4.56 gears,shortbelt,exhaust cutout,weight reduction,etc.Cartek has four H/C C5's in the tens,and several others running 11.0's,these cars are street driven daily,nobody else is even close to that,end of story.You probably don't remember this but I was at your shop back in 99,when I was still living in Florida,my car was a week old,I bought a Blackwing and used B+B cat-back from you and you let me borrow your Lincoln while you worked on my car. :lol:

 

I agree that a Dynojet doesn't do load on the base model 248c. However they do have some new options.

DYNOTRAC LOAD CONTROL OPTION (model 248 only)
This option allows steady state load testing at a preset RPM, speed or percentage of brake pressure.

EDDY CURRENT LOAD OPTION (model 224 only) - $CALL FOR PRICING

Now, you haven't been on the forums in quite some time. So, I can understand your amazement at some of the numbers folks are producing. I know there are dyno "tricks" we all do. NASCAR uses dynojets. What do they see froma Superflow 901 to a 248c?

As for the disbelief. Hey its real simple there are a few calcs for figuring how much HP is reuqired to run a certain MPH. In the case of the Cartek cars and others. The MPH and the times jive up.

Also, the percentage of loss through the driveline is a somewhat arbitrary number. Sure its ball park, but figures range from 15-18% depending on who you ask for stick cars.

As for how the HP has jumped. Look at the advances in three areas. Heads, Cams, and tuning.

Some of the advances:
LS6 intake - Better breathing...
Cylinder head flows of 314+ @ 600 on ported Stage II heads
MUCH bigger cams - How long has it been since you were "around" in '99 it was big stuff when MTI made 400RWHP with their T1 cam on a "radical" 112LSA. No one thought you'd be able to make it run. But it did....

Ls1edit - There had to be a way to make these "big" cams run. LS1edit made it possible for the masses. Instead of having to send your computer to Ed Wright.

As stated, look at the before and after. Nobody ever won a race ont eh dyno. But if you take a car do a baseline on it (say a stock Z06) and it makes 355RWHP. You then go do the bolt-ons + a H/C you come back and re-dyno and it makes 455RWHP what happened. The dyno shows a 105RWHP delta. Is that wrong for some reason?

Are you saying as HP goes up that there is a larger margin of error on the dyno?

I'm not out to slam you, but where have you been for the last 3-4 years? What kind of HP are your cars making either on a Superflow or a dynojet?
What do they run?

 

:iagree:

I agree about LS1 Edit, its more than just making the old heads/cam packages run better.

People began designing their camshafts for optimal performance, not just performance with stock tuning and a maf translator.

I put a T1 cam in my car a year and a half ago, honestly I wish I would have waited. I have made this cam run so well just by tuning it myself that I'm thinking about stepping up to something bigger.

TEK WARRIOR: This thread is going well, lets not get it locked because of your axe to grind with that 'other shop'.

Eric

 

With a race weight of 3250 you have aprox 440 rwhp :-)

But is your race weight really that low ?

Mine is closer to 3560 with me onbord (170 pounds), Roll bar, pluss
LPE cast iron manifoil and turbo stuff adds up a bit.

My best trap is 140.5 mph, my average on ten runs was 139.5

Anyway, my friends Dynojet 248c tell me i have 657 rwhp, the calculator based on trap speed and mph tells me 665 rwhp, pretty close i think :-)

We have dynoed 50 cars last two months, most of them went home crying, they all believed that HP was higher.
How do you explain a F#¤d guy, his 70 Shelby with a 428 Cobra engine only make 245 rwhp :-)

On the other hand, Ron might have a point regarding dyno queens, i dont know, what i do know is Ron, he knows his stuff !

Hey Ron remember the Norwegian guy bringing home a 1998 Red Coupe, i bought a Mongoose 400 kit from you @ Labor day Bowling green in 1998 ?

 

Iam very impressed with what I saw at the shootout. Myself and Myron
had a long discussion about the impressive track times viewed. We
were also informed that the low 11 and high 10 vettes were not
pump gas and were close to 12.0:1. However they were impressive!
It was hot and humid that day! My whole point was to inform that do
not make a decision on the numbers coming from a dynojet they can
easily be inflated, with all sorts of tricks! Vehicle weight and trap speeds
do not lie!

 

So let me get this right. how about tuning, say a turbo on a dynojet. What would the issues be?

 

Gooseman,

I'm getting my supercharged C5 dynoed on a dynojet this week, does your offer still stand to dyno on your Land and Sea for free? I live in the same city as you and this could prove/disprove your point. Also it helps me since I'd love to have a "second opinion" on my dyno run.

 

Actually Myron did laugh when I told him what my car made at the RW when at LGM (425HP). As he is local, I had went out to TPIS to look at their new widemouth TB. When we started talking about my car, he told me there is no way my car would make 425 RWHP (BTW it is an A4) and even offered to pay for the dyno time at DRM to prove it. Well, just for arguments sake, I scheduled some dyno time at DRM and had Doug make a few pulls. While it did not make the 425 RWHP/391 RWTQ I had dynoed at LGM .. It did Dyno 417 RWHP/398 RWTQ. The 8 RWHP difference I can live with. Especially considering that there are a few more bolt ons that can be added to gain a few more HP later as well as some additonal tuning that looks like is needed to fine tune the A/F ratios as it is runnnig a little rich.

 

Gooseman, I agree. I dynoed with 20 psi in my DR tires and lost 10 rwhp vs. my street tires on the dyno yet picked up 1.2 mph in the 1/8 at the track with the same 60'.

My car dynos 330 yet I have trapped as high as 90.87 in the 1/8. 90.87 with a race weight of 3500lbs should put me at 360 to 370 rwhp. I raced a viper in the 1/8 and we were within 1 mph of each other while he dynos 430+ to the rear wheels. Yes he could drive he ran a 7.7 to my 7.93.

Dynos are good for checking air/fuel and tuning but the real answers and hp is shown at the track!

 

And the acceleration of the drum is caused by A) TQ or B) HP?

Since F=M*a (Newtons laws of motion)
and TQ is a (rotating) force
It is TQ that causes the drum to rotate at increasingly faster rates.

Measuring the time between pulses from the optical encoded gives the time per (partial) revolution, time gives speed, speed give TQ, TQ and RPMs gives HP.

 

Ron,Whoever informed you that the Cartek cars are 12 to 1,is full of crap,all there H/C cars are slightly higher than stock compression and tuned on 93-94 octane,two of the Cartek H/C cars drove from NJ to Florida for the event,you can't do that with 12 to 1.I just spoke to Brent,he was the only one who put race gas in his car because he was out of fuel and they didn't have 93 at the track.


[Modified by TEK WARRIOR, 1:06 PM 9/18/2003]

 

Your are correct, dynojet's only measure HP, not torque. A simple way to prove this is disconnect the RPM pickup. After you do a pull you can then graph HP vs. MPH (or vs. time) but you will not be able to show any torque numbers. This indicates that the torque is calculated from the measured HP with RPM formula. Dynojet calculates HP based on knowing the mass of the drum and measuring the time it takes to accelerate it.

I have heard that they offer an air brake module for the dynojet now for load testing, but I have no personal experience with it.

 

This is not true; it still measures TQ, but it measures TQ on the inertial wheel (hint it knows the size and mass of this wheel). If it knows the number of sparks and the rotation rate on the inertial wheel, it can compute the transmission, rear end ratio, and tire height (combination) and use these to derive engine TQ.

 

IMO a dyno is a tuning device. Do we race dyno's? No. Do we use dyno's to determine the driveability of a car? No. Do we use dyno's to determine who's car is going to be faster at the track? No.

You can really only compare car to car on the same dyno. I have heard from a few reputable sources that there can be a 2-5% variance between dynos. Who really cares if that 450rwhp car went 11.5 @ 119 or the 410rwhp car went 10.7 @ 128. Dyno's dont allow the direct comparison of combo's or setups just a generalization. Before I heard about Cartek and LG making big HP there was a little shop in Texas Called GTP who everyone swore by. Their packages always made 440+rwhp and posted crazy track times. One car made 460rwhp and went mid 10s @ 128 if I remember correctly. Does that mean that every car that makes 460rwhp will go mid 10s @ 128? I think not, driver, weight, atmospheric conditions play a MAJOR role in the equasion. The track times speak for themselves. My hats off to Cartek, GTP, LG and all of the other tuners who have good MPH and ET at the track. That shows you whats going on in the REAL WORLD.
Phillip

 

:lurk: :lurk: :lurk: :lurk:

 

Go to prestage.com and they have all sorts of mathmatical formulas for what's being discussed.

 

I just plugged your numbers into the formula on prestage.com and come up with 520hp :hurray: