In the time of 400rwhp being the best, you didn't have stock displacement vettes going 10's in the 1/4. The power levels did come up. The cam sizes being used now are far bigger than those that were available even one year ago. Also changed is cam grinder's investment into the platform. Ramp rates and light weight valvetrain parts are now here. Reduction of parasitic losses has alone acounted for a lot of this motor's ability to run very high rpm's with these huge cams and regaining tq with high gearing. Where there cams like 232-236 590/600 on a 110lsa available when you were last here? Well if you think to compare that to the now smallish 224 570 114lsa cams of the last year or 2 I can see why 460rwhp is a confusiion to you. I run 11.55 CR on pump gas. LS6 heads with titanium valves and large cam with lighter weight forged flycut pistons, every bolt-on in creation (blackwing, aluminum flywheel, electric water pump, underdrive pulley, (was the ls6 intake manifold around when you were the knowledge pit?)....LS6 heads?, is that enough to make up for the 15-20% increase in RWHP or do you think it should still be near 400rwhp with all of those changes? If you are saying that the LS1 or LS6 platform is not one of the most advanced and powerful engine designs ever, perhaps you should take a look at what the C5R is beating these days. History is full of the doubting Thomas issue. Any method of measurement shows today's H/C cars to be 15-20% faster and more powerful than the cars from even 2 yrs ago.

lol....hehehe...a little better camshfts you said.....I suggest you use the search feature to enlighten yourself as to the recent strides. I have seen CR as high as 12.2 on pump gas with huge cams. I dont have time to hold class now but your former 'fast' head and cam cars from the past have been outdone on the track by ZO6's with bolt-ons.

 

for what its worth gooseman... My car has a 500hp, 346cid, 11:1, 93 pump gas, motor, i know it cant exist.. i know i didnt put 7000 miles on it in 6 months driveing it... I KNOW it cant run the 11.29 @ 120mph that it did with an Automatic tranny and race weight of 3550lbs.. I know its all a figment of my IMAGINATION....i know it didnt dyno 433rwhp... cause YOU SAID SO... and since your some old engine builder stuck in the 60's where 1.3hp per cube was groundbreaking.. i Hafta belive everything you say...


Buddy... just cause your engines arent making power... doesnt mean ours ARENT.

And too anybody who doesnt belive it... i welcome them to come see my engine being torn down on Monday @ cartek... you can rip it apart yourself if you want to!

 

Goosman,

Who are you?

In my Trans Am Race Car, we made 701 flywheel hp on a superflow dyno in North Carolina out of a 310 cu in engine. That is 2.25 hp/ cu in. My Race cr engine builder is from NC, and he would make Myron look like the amature that he is.
This same engine came down and put out 602 on my DynoJet dyno. The extra rwhp came from the straight cut gears, and efficient drive line. That engine won the Long Beach Grand Prix.

So what is your point? We use a dynojet to varify after each race that there has been NO hp loss, and to determine when to rebuild the engine. It is an accurate way to COMPARE POWER. 602rwhp is a far cry from 701 flywheel hp, but the dyno jet does it's job. It is a TOOL.

The Dynojet is a tool just like a Moroso spring tester. The spring tester doesnot measure true spring pressure, it just gives you a number to compare to, just like the dynojet.

It takes X amount of power to rotate the nearly 4000 lb drums and accelerate them . That is what is measured. Force=Mass x acceleration.
If the Mass doesn't change, but the drum accelerates faster, then that means that the Force (hp/tq) was increased.

Improvements on the same dyno are all that matter.

LG

 

Julio
I appreciate the invite. But the only way to prove your case. Is to run the number and rip it down right there at the track. Showing the pistons, rods and crank. Showing that it is a true stock bottom end no off set grinding of the crank, no lightened parts etc... I am flattered that you are concerned with my opinion. If I was in your shoes I don't think I would be wasting my time with this post. If your cars where 383's I would still be impressed. They show great drive ability and great track times
:cheers:

 

Well since we'd like to put this issue to rest, not only for you but for all who have doubts, we will run Brent's car on a Wednesday night at e-town, and you can follow us back to the shop to watch a teardown. You will see everything there is to see inside the motor, but you have to spring for dinner. :cheers:

 

Can't beat that offer :D

I remember when LPE said the LS-1 could never be bigger than 382 so nothing is stationary in technology, than heaven.

 

If I help with the teardown can I get in on that dinner :lol: Looks like after that there won't be any questions asked and the non-believers will be pacified :cheers:

 

You Got It!!
:thumbs: I just want everyone to know this is not a Vette Doctor / Cartek battle. I will go and witness the tear down for my own satisfaction and as a rep for everyone on the forum. I give Julio a lot of credit. He is certainly stepping up to the plate. I wish it was on a week end its going to be a long night. Good thing I am the boss at work :lol: Home may be a problem

[Modified by Major Spray, 7:25 PM 9/20/2003] :cuss


[Modified by Major Spray, 7:29 PM 9/20/2003]

 

Is his car performing fine? Is it coming in simply for updates, or has he had some issues with the motor? Nobody understands the need for more power greater than I do, so if it is just that, then I'd be very interested to see/hear the condition of his heads/combustion chambers. Please post what was previously done to the engine, what times he ran, and what the tear down reveals - good or bad.

I think everyone agrees that it is the performance on the street/track that counts. What also counts is that the motor will stand up for the long haul after having beat upon it, and if you can use pump gas to achieve the numbers and power levels advertised.

I'll be watching with great interest, as these current power levels from the stock bottom ended LS engine is truely amazing, and worthy of note.

:seeya

 

Major Spray, we have a deal. :cool:

DDSLT5, there is nothing wrong with Brent's car, it will be raced prior to the tear down. He just want's the latest Stage 2-X revision 3 heads for the added power, he has one of our original Stage 2-X heads and there have been some improvements since then.

Julio

 

This engine business is getting like computers few months and your way behind :lol: Keep gaining guys :thumbs:


[Modified by John Shiels, 9:24 PM 9/20/2003]

 

I'm running a 486 33mhz and my hard drive is failing. :D

Enjoy your night.

Jim

 

HEY GUYS......i guess im going to e-town wed night!!!! :D

in a way im glad to see this happen

nothing is worse than running great times at the track and then people doubt or question your mods

yeah i know these cartek head/cam cars beat most strokers and blower

cars but what do i have to gain by not telling the truth???

dont you think i would love to have a 427?? hell yeah...

if i had a 382 396 408 415 422 i would be proud of that an let people know

i guess it will all be put on the table wed night....


major spray....whats for dinner???




[Modified by brent eb02, 11:28 PM 9/20/2003]

 

looks like gooseman... left the goosehouse

 

I guess after wed night we will prove that these in fact are not crazy dyno numbers at all. I don't know what else you guys could want but to see the car run the number and then be torn down to prove the bottom end is stock. Maybe tuners who question other peoples numbers(gooseman) would have better luck if they stuck to R&D instead of starting a pissing match on a forum. The ability for Cartek to make a 470rwhp+ heads and cam package didn't come from them starting BS on public boards.

I'll be racing wed night also and anyone can come see the numbers in person then and when its time for my car to be broken down for updates anyone is welcome to come watch but it looks like at least dinner is the going rate for that :cheers:


[Modified by kh24, 4:14 AM 9/21/2003]

 

Brent and Joe

You guy's should be buying me dinner. This whole thing is about proving your case to the corvette world. I am doing this for the fun of it. I still don't really care what you guy's have. My motto has always been Run What You Brung. It is obviously important to Julio and that is the only reason it is happening.

:cheers:
See ya wednesday

 

Myron is one of the most respected engine builders in our industry,
period. He is one of the guys at the Superflow conference that everyone
listens too. I did not slam anyone, and I did not point fingers. Who am I.
As far as this business I have 20+ years in engine management systems.
I have been working with the LS1 since its birth. Iam not affiliated with
Jake Delaney (Delco Mongoose) . My point is that HP sells parts. My
point is that the Dynojet can be manipulated to inflate those numbers.
My point is do not invest money based upon the Dynojet inflated numbers. I stated before I beleive 1/4 Mile Traps and Vehicle weight! I stated before
I do not beleive 470 or 480 rwhp at 11.0:1 Compression on a production
built rotating assembly. If it is a 15% Loss on a Mn6 that would be 564HP.
500 HP would be 420RWHP!




[Modified by Gooseman, 1:21 PM 9/21/2003]


[Modified by Gooseman, 1:22 PM 9/21/2003]


[Modified by Gooseman, 1:34 PM 9/21/2003]

 

430 RWHP(before TC & gears)

 

I know it was intended as a joke but as it turns out, this was probably the best example of words to describe 'the ls1 engine guru's' problem.

 

Using a supercharger, guys get 550rwhp with the stock crank and connecting rods. It can handle it. As for pistons most guys do run forged pistons. Exacly who is it that you heard claimed 480rwhp on stock displacement with the stock rotating assembly?

I have heard 473 in one case on the ZO6 but the pistons are different on the LS6 motor. Could you please stop wasting time and let us know the source of your 'dyno-lies' so perhaps the person you think is lying can provide proof.

I would also note to everyone that you went from not believing the LS1 at stock displacement can put out 470 to 480rwhp to saying that one with a stock rotating assembly can't.