Torque Management System - C6
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1
From: Annandale VA
Originally Posted by jschindler
I cannot picture "banging" shifts or doing a "launch" on a dyno. That would be way out of the norm for a dyno run. I'm thinking that with the car strapped down, and the drum having to be what moves, it would be a real good way to break some expensive parts.
I have already posted my dyno results on this forum, including the 1/4 mile simulation pull.
Any time you would like to see this for yourself, or do it with your own car, just go over to Glen Burnie, MD to PSI, or to any of a number of other Mustang dyno shops.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
I do not think you can tune TM out of the 06 A6 yet. My tuner told me he tuned out all he could, not really sure what that means. But with 50 more RWHP I am still running the same 60 foot times. I really do not know much about HP tuner or LSx edit so I am speculating here. I think we need the tuning software for the actual A6 tranny before we can tune out TM. The 05 A4 tranny can be tuned with HP tuner so they I believe have TM under control.
I would love to hear from a HP tuner guru on this matter.
I would love to hear from a HP tuner guru on this matter.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Originally Posted by HITMAN99
On a Mustang dyno, you can easily do full quarter mile simulations, through all the gears, and shift just as hard as you please. There is little or no wheelspin at launch, or during shifts, but the simulated results are very close to track results.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 26,714
Likes: 344
From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by HITMAN99
Perhaps you are having difficulty picturing this because you have not dynoed your car recently, or have only done dyno testing on a Dynojet. On a Mustang dyno, you can easily do full quarter mile simulations, through all the gears, and shift just as hard as you please. There is little or no wheelspin at launch, or during shifts, but the simulated results are very close to track results. Main difference is that on a dyno it's hard to simulate the actual airflow at higher speeds, so tuners have learned to tune a little rich, knowing that the A/F mix will be leaner at the track.
I have already posted my dyno results on this forum, including the 1/4 mile simulation pull.
Any time you would like to see this for yourself, or do it with your own car, just go over to Glen Burnie, MD to PSI, or to any of a number of other Mustang dyno shops.
I have already posted my dyno results on this forum, including the 1/4 mile simulation pull.
Any time you would like to see this for yourself, or do it with your own car, just go over to Glen Burnie, MD to PSI, or to any of a number of other Mustang dyno shops.
All good information. I'm somewhat opinionated
but actually more open minded to learning than I might appear sometimes 
Last edited by jschindler; Jul 31, 2006 at 10:19 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1
From: Annandale VA
I never tried it with my C5 M6, not sure I would want to. On an A6, it's no more exciting than any other dyno pull. But with logging software, you can easily see the timing being pulled at launch and during shifts.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by boosted_z06
When the ABS/ETC control module senses spin from the drive wheels due to too much engine torque for the road conditions, it enters the traction control mode.
The ABS/ETC module monitors both front and rear wheel speeds through the wheel speed sensors. If at any time during acceleration the ABS/ETC module detects drive wheel slip, it will request:
• The PCM, via the spark retard circuit, to retard the amount of spark advance.
• The PCM, to restrict transmission downshifting.
• The throttle relaxer control module to reduce the engine throttle opening by a certain percentage to bring engine torque into a specific range.
The throttle relaxer control module accomplishes this by commanding the throttle relaxer to override the accelerator pedal cable and physically reduce the throttle body butterfly opening by winding the throttle cable back.
This is achieved via two high speed Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) circuits between the ABS/ETC module and the throttle relaxer control module.
The ABS/ETC control module sends a message to the throttle relaxer control module on the requested throttle position (DKR) circuit.
The throttle relaxer control module then reports the modified throttle position opening back to the ABS/ETC control module via the actual
throttle position (DKI) circuit.
Simultaneously with engine spark retard and throttle position intervention, the ABS/ETC control module will activate the ABS isolation valves, turn on the ABS pump motor and supply brake pressure to the over spinning wheel(s).
The isolation valves isolate the front brake hydraulic circuits from the master cylinder and rear brake hydraulic circuits. Once the rear brake hydraulic circuits are isolated, pressure can be applied to the rear wheels without
affecting any other brake hydraulic circuits.
The ABS/ETC module opens the priming valve, allowing fluid to be drawn from the master cylinder to the pump motor, turns on the ABS pump motor to apply pressure, begins cycling the ABS assembly's inlet and outlet valves, and closes the switching valve, ensuring fluid is directed to
the wheel not back into the master cylinder.
The inlet and outlet valve cycling aids in obtaining maximum road surface traction in the same manner as the Anti-Lock Brake mode. The difference between Traction Control and Anti-Lock Brake mode is that brake fluid pressure is increased to lessen wheel spin (Traction Control mode), rather than reduced to allow greater wheel
spin (Anti-Lock Brake mode).
If at any time during Traction Control mode, the brakes are manually applied, the brake switch signals the ABS/ETC module to inhibit brake intervention and allow for manual braking (throttle reduction and spark retard intervention can still occur if necessary).
Engine Spark and Throttle Position Intervention
Simultaneously to brake intervention, the ABS/ETC control module communicates with the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) and the throttle relaxer control module requesting the PCM to retard the spark advance and for the throttle relaxer control module to reduce the throttle opening.
With the engine running, the PCM continually supplies and monitors a 12 volt pull-up to the spark retard circuit.
The ABS/ETC control module requests spark retard by pulling this voltage low. The PCM then responds by reducing the spark advance of the engine and restricting transmission downshifting.
The ABS/ETC control module constantly sends a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) signal at 90% with a frequency of "lOOHz to the throttle relaxer control module on the requested throttle position line (DKR).
This signal is to indicate to the throttle relaxer control module that the traction control system (ETC) is in a state of readiness.
With the engine idling, the ABS/ETC control module constantly sends a Pulse Width Modulated (PMW) signal with a duty cycle of 90% to the throttle relaxer control module via the requested throttle position line (DKR).
The throttle relaxer control module responds on the actual throttle position line (DKI) with a PWM signal with a duty cycle of 9%.
When the ABS/ETC control module determines that a reduction in throttle is required, it reduces the PWM signal on the requested throttle position line (DKR), from 90% (no throttle reduction) to as low as approximately 14% (maximum throttle reduction).
The throttle relaxer control module then drives the throttle relaxer motor, overriding the accelerator pedal command (drivers foot), pulling the throttle cable back, and thus, closing the amount of throttle opening.
The ABS/ETC module monitors both front and rear wheel speeds through the wheel speed sensors. If at any time during acceleration the ABS/ETC module detects drive wheel slip, it will request:
• The PCM, via the spark retard circuit, to retard the amount of spark advance.
• The PCM, to restrict transmission downshifting.
• The throttle relaxer control module to reduce the engine throttle opening by a certain percentage to bring engine torque into a specific range.
The throttle relaxer control module accomplishes this by commanding the throttle relaxer to override the accelerator pedal cable and physically reduce the throttle body butterfly opening by winding the throttle cable back.
This is achieved via two high speed Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) circuits between the ABS/ETC module and the throttle relaxer control module.
The ABS/ETC control module sends a message to the throttle relaxer control module on the requested throttle position (DKR) circuit.
The throttle relaxer control module then reports the modified throttle position opening back to the ABS/ETC control module via the actual
throttle position (DKI) circuit.
Simultaneously with engine spark retard and throttle position intervention, the ABS/ETC control module will activate the ABS isolation valves, turn on the ABS pump motor and supply brake pressure to the over spinning wheel(s).
The isolation valves isolate the front brake hydraulic circuits from the master cylinder and rear brake hydraulic circuits. Once the rear brake hydraulic circuits are isolated, pressure can be applied to the rear wheels without
affecting any other brake hydraulic circuits.
The ABS/ETC module opens the priming valve, allowing fluid to be drawn from the master cylinder to the pump motor, turns on the ABS pump motor to apply pressure, begins cycling the ABS assembly's inlet and outlet valves, and closes the switching valve, ensuring fluid is directed to
the wheel not back into the master cylinder.
The inlet and outlet valve cycling aids in obtaining maximum road surface traction in the same manner as the Anti-Lock Brake mode. The difference between Traction Control and Anti-Lock Brake mode is that brake fluid pressure is increased to lessen wheel spin (Traction Control mode), rather than reduced to allow greater wheel
spin (Anti-Lock Brake mode).
If at any time during Traction Control mode, the brakes are manually applied, the brake switch signals the ABS/ETC module to inhibit brake intervention and allow for manual braking (throttle reduction and spark retard intervention can still occur if necessary).
Engine Spark and Throttle Position Intervention
Simultaneously to brake intervention, the ABS/ETC control module communicates with the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) and the throttle relaxer control module requesting the PCM to retard the spark advance and for the throttle relaxer control module to reduce the throttle opening.
With the engine running, the PCM continually supplies and monitors a 12 volt pull-up to the spark retard circuit.
The ABS/ETC control module requests spark retard by pulling this voltage low. The PCM then responds by reducing the spark advance of the engine and restricting transmission downshifting.
The ABS/ETC control module constantly sends a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) signal at 90% with a frequency of "lOOHz to the throttle relaxer control module on the requested throttle position line (DKR).
This signal is to indicate to the throttle relaxer control module that the traction control system (ETC) is in a state of readiness.
With the engine idling, the ABS/ETC control module constantly sends a Pulse Width Modulated (PMW) signal with a duty cycle of 90% to the throttle relaxer control module via the requested throttle position line (DKR).
The throttle relaxer control module responds on the actual throttle position line (DKI) with a PWM signal with a duty cycle of 9%.
When the ABS/ETC control module determines that a reduction in throttle is required, it reduces the PWM signal on the requested throttle position line (DKR), from 90% (no throttle reduction) to as low as approximately 14% (maximum throttle reduction).
The throttle relaxer control module then drives the throttle relaxer motor, overriding the accelerator pedal command (drivers foot), pulling the throttle cable back, and thus, closing the amount of throttle opening.
i dont believe any of that because it pertains mostly to spinning traction control. tm works mostly when not spinning so when you have good traction like track prep drag radials slicks there is no wheel spin. i pulled the abs fuse and turned ah and tc off still tm i have tm completly removed now and can tell its gone. and no one has said anything about symptons once removed so they dont have it completly removed.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
i dont believe any of that because it pertains mostly to spinning traction control. tm works mostly when not spinning so when you have good traction like track prep drag radials slicks there is no wheel spin. i pulled the abs fuse and turned ah and tc off still tm i have tm completly removed now and can tell its gone. and no one has said anything about symptons once removed so they dont have it completly removed.
Are we missing something??
Pro
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 593
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
i dont believe any of that because it pertains mostly to spinning traction control. tm works mostly when not spinning so when you have good traction like track prep drag radials slicks there is no wheel spin. i pulled the abs fuse and turned ah and tc off still tm i have tm completly removed now and can tell its gone. and no one has said anything about symptons once removed so they dont have it completly removed.
TM is looking at torque at the engine, not what the wheels are doing in themselves but the effect to the engine's torque output.
All the GM content that has been posted and the TM tables have no rule saying TM is not active when wheels are spinning when the above from GM says it does.
You can call it TM or traction control but in the end the PCM deals with both the same way as to yanking timing, fuel and taking control of drive by wire and if a A4 also control of torque converter
This is very simple, those with failrly stock engine, those living at higher elevations or hot weather will output even less HP and torque and less prone to hitting the high watermark GM set to tripping off TM
A LS1 with only about 340 HP/TQ of course then could not trip the 350 ft/lbs GM set as TM trigger as easy and those of us with a C6 Z06 can without even trying
Last edited by boosted_z06; Jul 31, 2006 at 09:59 PM.
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Pro
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 593
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by shurite44
I agree that tech posting has nothing to do with TM as far as I can figure out. It is interesting but I believe it is TC/AH info.
Are we missing something??
Are we missing something??
If the tires are spinning then there is less load on crank so there would be more torque at that time and trip TM.
There is nothing that says PCM cannot do both TM and TC at the same time.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,551
Likes: 4
From: Livingston Texas
Originally Posted by boosted_z06
Just where do you make up a rule that TM only functions when NOT spinning the tires ?
TM is looking at torque at the engine, not what the wheels are doing in themselves but the effect to the engine's torque output.
TM is looking at torque at the engine, not what the wheels are doing in themselves but the effect to the engine's torque output.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by Brett Hunter
I agree. However it is much easier to "feel" TM kicking in when the tires hook up well. When they are spinning TM might actually help your 60' time.
are you guys nuts. tm slows 60 ft spining tires slows 60 ft slicks slow 60 ft my best 60 fts were when i didnt floor on the start and belive me if your air pressure is right and you know how to heat the tires you will not spin the stock tires with an auto trans.if you lightly spin 60 ft will be better than 1.99.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,551
Likes: 4
From: Livingston Texas
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
how can tm help 60ft times are you guys nuts. tm slows 60 ft spining tires slows 60 ft slicks slow 60 ft my best 60 fts were when i didnt floor on the start and belive me if your air pressure is right and you know how to heat the tires you will not spin the stock tires with an auto trans.if you lightly spin 60 ft will be better than 1.99.
are you guys nuts. tm slows 60 ft spining tires slows 60 ft slicks slow 60 ft my best 60 fts were when i didnt floor on the start and belive me if your air pressure is right and you know how to heat the tires you will not spin the stock tires with an auto trans.if you lightly spin 60 ft will be better than 1.99.
I should have stated that in my example your 60' is probably shot anyways if TM can improve it.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Well the engine may use the same functions to retard power during a TC episode as a TM scenario. But the reason for the reduction in power are two entirely different things.
One is because the tires are spinning the other is because the drive line is beginning to experience to much torque. In general your drive line is not receiving a high amount of torque when your tires are spinning.
One is because the tires are spinning the other is because the drive line is beginning to experience to much torque. In general your drive line is not receiving a high amount of torque when your tires are spinning.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by Brett Hunter
Sounds like you described my example of TM helping a car that is spinning too much.
I should have stated that in my example your 60' is probably shot anyways if TM can improve it.
I should have stated that in my example your 60' is probably shot anyways if TM can improve it.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Spinning your tires may help your trap speed but definitely not your 60 foot time. Actually I am not sure exactly what you guys are talking about with the spinning tires and TM stuff. Might be time for me to leave this one alone for a while. 
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,252
Likes: 133
From: Short Hills, NJ
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
how can tm help 60ft times are you guys nuts. tm slows 60 ft spining tires slows 60 ft slicks slow 60 ft my best 60 fts were when i didnt floor on the start and belive me if your air pressure is right and you know how to heat the tires you will not spin the stock tires with an auto trans.if you lightly spin 60 ft will be better than 1.99
.
are you guys nuts. tm slows 60 ft spining tires slows 60 ft slicks slow 60 ft my best 60 fts were when i didnt floor on the start and belive me if your air pressure is right and you know how to heat the tires you will not spin the stock tires with an auto trans.if you lightly spin 60 ft will be better than 1.99.
I think that too much traction can potentially hurt one's times (especially in an unmodded car) because it helps provoke TM and slows down the car's launch. I dead hooked which would normally be somewhat preferable and help one's stock times (and I did get a decent sixty foot (1.88)) but the car hesitates real bad for a second or two if it hooks (track or street) while launching. As I'm sure you will agree Dennis, I think just a little wheelspin could be a good thing when it comes to traction and TM issues.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by LS1LT1
I think that too much traction can potentially hurt one's times (especially in an unmodded car) because it helps provoke TM and slows down the car's launch. I dead hooked which would normally be somewhat preferable and help one's stock times (and I did get a decent sixty foot (1.88)) but the car hesitates real bad for a second or two if it hooks (track or street) while launching. As I'm sure you will agree Dennis, I think just a little wheelspin could be a good thing when it comes to traction and TM issues.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 26,714
Likes: 344
From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by shurite44
Spinning your tires may help your trap speed but definitely not your 60 foot time. Actually I am not sure exactly what you guys are talking about with the spinning tires and TM stuff. Might be time for me to leave this one alone for a while.
Lots of theories, lots of graphs. But no real concrete definition.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Ok, I get it now. You guys are saying you are better off spinning a little as opposed to having TM engage and the car hesitates. Ok, I will buy that as a valid argument. That makes some sense to me.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by jschindler
Lots of theories, lots of graphs. But no real concrete definition.