Torque Management System - C6
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,762
Likes: 4
From: Chandler Arizona
Originally Posted by boosted_z06
Just where do you make up a rule that TM only functions when NOT spinning the tires ?
TM is looking at torque at the engine, not what the wheels are doing in themselves but the effect to the engine's torque output.
All the GM content that has been posted and the TM tables have no rule saying TM is not active when wheels are spinning when the above from GM says it does.
You can call it TM or traction control but in the end the PCM deals with both the same way as to yanking timing, fuel and taking control of drive by wire and if a A4 also control of torque converter
This is very simple, those with failrly stock engine, those living at higher elevations or hot weather will output even less HP and torque and less prone to hitting the high watermark GM set to tripping off TM
A LS1 with only about 340 HP/TQ of course then could not trip the 350 ft/lbs GM set as TM trigger as easy and those of us with a C6 Z06 can without even trying
TM is looking at torque at the engine, not what the wheels are doing in themselves but the effect to the engine's torque output.
All the GM content that has been posted and the TM tables have no rule saying TM is not active when wheels are spinning when the above from GM says it does.
You can call it TM or traction control but in the end the PCM deals with both the same way as to yanking timing, fuel and taking control of drive by wire and if a A4 also control of torque converter
This is very simple, those with failrly stock engine, those living at higher elevations or hot weather will output even less HP and torque and less prone to hitting the high watermark GM set to tripping off TM
A LS1 with only about 340 HP/TQ of course then could not trip the 350 ft/lbs GM set as TM trigger as easy and those of us with a C6 Z06 can without even trying
Dennis is saying that Torque Management is invoked when the torque from the engine is too high. So please explain to all of us how the torque can be too high if your tires are spinning? Look at it this way, if you jack up the rear of the car and get the rear tires off the ground, then nail the throttle, do you think the torque is going to be very high? No, because there is nothing to react against. Now, if you spin and then grab (slip/grab or wheel hop), then you can get torque spikes. But not if you just flat out spin the tires.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by glennhl
Dennis is saying that Torque Management is invoked when the torque from the engine is too high. So please explain to all of us how the torque can be too high if your tires are spinning? Look at it this way, if you jack up the rear of the car and get the rear tires off the ground, then nail the throttle, do you think the torque is going to be very high? No, because there is nothing to react against. Now, if you spin and then grab (slip/grab or wheel hop), then you can get torque spikes. But not if you just flat out spin the tires.
i can understand the computer 'thinking" the wheels are spinning and traction being and issue when the rpms are high but the load is low.
if the tm function is a result of the estimated load exceeding the estimated torque (computed from the gear-rpm lookup table) would knowing how load is calculated help ?
if tm is the same function as found in the 'automatic transmission' but only occurs when the same conditions are experienced, how would one drive-around-it ?
Pro
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 593
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by glennhl
Dennis is saying that Torque Management is invoked when the torque from the engine is too high. So please explain to all of us how the torque can be too high if your tires are spinning? Look at it this way, if you jack up the rear of the car and get the rear tires off the ground, then nail the throttle, do you think the torque is going to be very high? No, because there is nothing to react against. Now, if you spin and then grab (slip/grab or wheel hop), then you can get torque spikes. But not if you just flat out spin the tires.
The higher each is the more impact TM has to the values GM used in those tables. Spinning tires on the ground is much different then if they are in the air and so there is still lots of engine load when tire is spinning.
Torque measured again is at the engine and being it is computed there high RPMs with higher throttle opening will dicate what the PCM comutes for TM and not what effects spin has to the torque at the tires.
Why do you think GM protects the drivetrain even on a MN6 during upshifts when the torque changes quite a bit between the time between the shifts.
TM will have more of a negative effect on a car that is purely tuned then one that was properly tuned for hard launches for it is how good or bad the engine reacts and recovers from the PCM pulling timing full and angle of throttle opening
Try doing a static dyno drum pull and change the air pressure or how well or poor car is strapped down and see the difference in what it reports the torque is and what the PCM says the delivered torque at flywheel is
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
think of it as a torque wrench. it doesnt click till the torque value is reached. when it over torques it strips the threads and then the wrench wont click like spinning guys dont always be so negative and think about it
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
think of it as a torque wrench. it doesnt click till the torque value is reached. when it over torques it strips the threads and then the wrench wont click like spinning guys dont always be so negative and think about it
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,762
Likes: 4
From: Chandler Arizona
Originally Posted by dennis50nj
think of it as a torque wrench. it doesnt click till the torque value is reached. when it over torques it strips the threads and then the wrench wont click like spinning guys dont always be so negative and think about it
Spinning tires just aren't going to result in much load on the engine.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,034
Likes: 0
From: Enumclaw WA.
On the HP Tuner, we took (modified) all the TM out on my 2005 A4, (3:15 rear gears) as well as modified the A4 shift points..
This made a huge difference in the cars launch and get up and go on rolling WOT's..
After a problem last week on my vibriation dampner and serp belt basically exploding, the dealer under warranty did fix the car, but reloaded the the stock files. So I will upload the modified files again this weekend. And I can certinally tell the difference between the two files
I hate the stock programmed hesitation when you hit WOT and in reality, I dont think its safe. Weather it is the TM or AH/TC responsible for that I dont know. But I do know that doing the basic HP Tune on a stock motor for the C6/A4 is required if you want to have some fun..
This made a huge difference in the cars launch and get up and go on rolling WOT's..
After a problem last week on my vibriation dampner and serp belt basically exploding, the dealer under warranty did fix the car, but reloaded the the stock files. So I will upload the modified files again this weekend. And I can certinally tell the difference between the two files
I hate the stock programmed hesitation when you hit WOT and in reality, I dont think its safe. Weather it is the TM or AH/TC responsible for that I dont know. But I do know that doing the basic HP Tune on a stock motor for the C6/A4 is required if you want to have some fun..
Pro
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 593
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by glennhl
Spinning tires just aren't going to result in much load on the engine.
PCM could care less if your tires are off the ground or replaced with a torque wrenches
TQ= HP/RPM*5252
RPM TQ HP
1000 300 57
2000 325 124
3000 349 200
3500 375 250
4000 400 305
5000 425 405
As example at 3,000 RPMs no tire spin and right at the GM maximum peak torque value
Now have wheel spin will cause RPMs to go higher, so does airmass and BANG over 350 ft/lbs and TM kicks in
ANYTHING that causes PCM to compute delivered torque will effect if TM kicks in and by how much
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,762
Likes: 4
From: Chandler Arizona
Originally Posted by boosted_z06
Load has nothing to do with the math for PCM to determine what the torque is (airmass does)
PCM could care less if your tires are off the ground or replaced with a torque wrenches
TQ= HP/RPM*5252
RPM TQ HP
1000 300 57
2000 325 124
3000 349 200
3500 375 250
4000 400 305
5000 425 405
As example at 3,000 RPMs no tire spin and right at the GM maximum peak torque value
Now have wheel spin will cause RPMs to go higher, so does airmass and BANG over 350 ft/lbs and TM kicks in
ANYTHING that causes PCM to compute delivered torque will effect if TM kicks in and by how much
PCM could care less if your tires are off the ground or replaced with a torque wrenches
TQ= HP/RPM*5252
RPM TQ HP
1000 300 57
2000 325 124
3000 349 200
3500 375 250
4000 400 305
5000 425 405
As example at 3,000 RPMs no tire spin and right at the GM maximum peak torque value
Now have wheel spin will cause RPMs to go higher, so does airmass and BANG over 350 ft/lbs and TM kicks in
ANYTHING that causes PCM to compute delivered torque will effect if TM kicks in and by how much
Yea, but load on the engine determines all the parameters that are used to determine torque. So without any torque load from the tires, the parameters such as air flow are going to be low. Otherwise what is the point of looking at the parameters if they do not indicate the torque output of the engine?
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Originally Posted by glennhl
Yea, but load on the engine determines all the parameters that are used to determine torque. So without any torque load from the tires, the parameters such as air flow are going to be low. Otherwise what is the point of looking at the parameters if they do not indicate the torque output of the engine?
airflow, tire speed, line pressure in auto trans,
Pro
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 593
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by glennhl
Yea, but load on the engine determines all the parameters that are used to determine torque. So without any torque load from the tires, the parameters such as air flow are going to be low. Otherwise what is the point of looking at the parameters if they do not indicate the torque output of the engine?
Engine load has zero to do with computing load at the wheels, engine load is airmass, MAP and grams per cylinder and why keep talking about the assend when the PCM calculates what happens at the front end
There is not one function or sensor that measures wheel load or torque for GM wants to control that before the drivetrain to protect it, not after the fact.
Kinda simple there is flywheel torque and rear end torque, PCM means Powertrain and that is exactly what it monitors and controls.
Try this the car is stuck in the snow, tires are spinning yet PCM has TM functions for the sole purpose to help engine get the tires and car moving and out of that snow
Last edited by boosted_z06; Aug 1, 2006 at 05:42 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 31
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by boosted_z06
No way, I suggest you go back and read the ton of info on this posted on this subject
Engine load has zero to do with computing load at the wheels, engine load is airmass, MAP and grams per cylinder and why keep talking about the assend when the PCM calculates what happens at the front end
There is not one function or sensor that measures wheel load or torque for GM wants to control that before the drivetrain to protect it, not after the fact.
Kinda simple there is flywheel torque and rear end torque, PCM means Powertrain and that is exactly what it monitors and controls.
Try this the car is stuck in the snow, tires are spinning yet PCM has TM functions for the sole purpose to help engine get the tires and car moving and out of that snow
Engine load has zero to do with computing load at the wheels, engine load is airmass, MAP and grams per cylinder and why keep talking about the assend when the PCM calculates what happens at the front end
There is not one function or sensor that measures wheel load or torque for GM wants to control that before the drivetrain to protect it, not after the fact.
Kinda simple there is flywheel torque and rear end torque, PCM means Powertrain and that is exactly what it monitors and controls.
Try this the car is stuck in the snow, tires are spinning yet PCM has TM functions for the sole purpose to help engine get the tires and car moving and out of that snow
Thanks for your views on TM.
Care to provide a parallel explanation on Abuse Mode (AM) and what sensor inputs combine to "detect" wheel hop and cause invocation of Abuse Mode?
FYI. I believe in TM and AM; just seeking whatever AM insights you might provide.
Ranger
Last edited by Ranger; Aug 1, 2006 at 05:58 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
Likes: 6
From: Shiloh Ohio
I don't think I buy TM has nothing to do with the torque at the rear wheels. Boosted don't be offended but I think you may have TC and TM confused.
Maybe not, but I do not see your point. I am not a mechanic or engineer though, so maybe it is a little above my understanding or something.
Maybe not, but I do not see your point. I am not a mechanic or engineer though, so maybe it is a little above my understanding or something.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,436
Likes: 4
From: Everett Wa
I think boosted has the right of it. It is just a straight math problem. Now really sit back and think about it.
There is no TM above 3000 rpms according to the tuning software. So if you could launch the car and have it hookup and never have the engine RPMS drop below 3000 it would never be invoked. But that is an impossibility. If you do hook hard you are going to invoke it everytime with the parameters from the factory. IF you spin the tires a bit you leason the impact of TM because you are higher in the RPM range.
And that pretty much what most people have been saying. For the most you really can't drive around it you can only tune it out. I would suppose that if you really slipped the clutch or put a high rpm stall in you could get around it but I would think you would be hurting your 60's doing that not to mention the equipment.
There is no TM above 3000 rpms according to the tuning software. So if you could launch the car and have it hookup and never have the engine RPMS drop below 3000 it would never be invoked. But that is an impossibility. If you do hook hard you are going to invoke it everytime with the parameters from the factory. IF you spin the tires a bit you leason the impact of TM because you are higher in the RPM range.
And that pretty much what most people have been saying. For the most you really can't drive around it you can only tune it out. I would suppose that if you really slipped the clutch or put a high rpm stall in you could get around it but I would think you would be hurting your 60's doing that not to mention the equipment.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 31
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by TMyers
...There is no TM above 3000 rpms according to the tuning software. So if you could launch the car and have it hookup and never have the engine RPMS drop below 3000 it would never be invoked. But that is an impossibility....
Also keep in mind that
(1) the power that gets pulled is not returned all at once and
(2) you encounter TM again (or is it AM) on the 1-2 and 2-3 shift. I can't tell if it's there on a strong 3-4 shift at about 123-124 in my car.
Ranger
Melting Slicks
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,451
Likes: 130
From: Fernandina Beach
Originally Posted by bocabob
On the HP Tuner, we took (modified) all the TM out on my 2005 A4, (3:15 rear gears) as well as modified the A4 shift points..
This made a huge difference in the cars launch and get up and go on rolling WOT's..
After a problem last week on my vibriation dampner and serp belt basically exploding, the dealer under warranty did fix the car, but reloaded the the stock files. So I will upload the modified files again this weekend. And I can certinally tell the difference between the two files
I hate the stock programmed hesitation when you hit WOT and in reality, I dont think its safe. Weather it is the TM or AH/TC responsible for that I dont know. But I do know that doing the basic HP Tune on a stock motor for the C6/A4 is required if you want to have some fun..
This made a huge difference in the cars launch and get up and go on rolling WOT's..
After a problem last week on my vibriation dampner and serp belt basically exploding, the dealer under warranty did fix the car, but reloaded the the stock files. So I will upload the modified files again this weekend. And I can certinally tell the difference between the two files
I hate the stock programmed hesitation when you hit WOT and in reality, I dont think its safe. Weather it is the TM or AH/TC responsible for that I dont know. But I do know that doing the basic HP Tune on a stock motor for the C6/A4 is required if you want to have some fun..
Pro
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 593
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Ranger
boosted_z06,
Thanks for your views on TM.
Care to provide a parallel explanation on Abuse Mode (AM) and what sensor inputs combine to "detect" wheel hop and cause invocation of Abuse Mode?
FYI. I believe in TM and AM; just seeking whatever AM insights you might provide.
Ranger
Thanks for your views on TM.
Care to provide a parallel explanation on Abuse Mode (AM) and what sensor inputs combine to "detect" wheel hop and cause invocation of Abuse Mode?
FYI. I believe in TM and AM; just seeking whatever AM insights you might provide.
Ranger
Being GM could monitor and control the torque converter and the transmission's shift points.
When AB kicks in it removes a percentage of torque depending on what the RPM and throttle angle is for a set amount of time (scaled in AB table) and can go so far as shutting down half the injectors and switch the state of TC is if it is in a locked state or not.
Auto trannie also can be controlled as far as base/brake pressures, and shift torque reduction
PCM and/or TCM also look at RPM, throttle angle and line pressure ( since it is computed by what the MAF's airmass is ) and then compares those values to those they set as the treshholds in all the TM anc TCC tables.
GM's A4 abuse mode works when RPMs are between 2,000 and 4,800 RPMs and can be adjusted via a tune except of course the A6 which at this point tuning tools still cannot tune.
Wheel hop, looks to see if both rear tires are at same rotation speed via wheel sensors.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 26,714
Likes: 344
From: Houston, TX
Wow, this is really getting interesting. With so much information gleaned from some of the above posts, I can help wonder if it is so well understood, and it's playing so much hell with how our cars run, then why aren't ya'll just having it deactivated? Problem solved?
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 31
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by jschindler
...I can help wonder if it is so well understood, and it's playing so much hell with how our cars run, then why aren't ya'll just having it deactivated? Problem solved?
But of course, if all the C6 owners stopped paying the TM toll and had full access to the power of their LS2, they might be out there matching or beating the Chevy quarter-mile spec for their cars.
Ranger
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,649
Likes: 31
From: Central Florida
Originally Posted by boosted_z06
Abuse mode is for auto transmissions, not the manuals
Being GM could monitor and control the torque converter and the transmission's shift points.
When AB kicks in it removes a percentage of torque depending on what the RPM and throttle angle is for a set amount of time (scaled in AB table) and can go so far as shutting down half the injectors and switch the state of TC is if it is in a locked state or not.
Auto trannie also can be controlled as far as base/brake pressures, and shift torque reduction
PCM and/or TCM also look at RPM, throttle angle and line pressure ( since it is computed by what the MAF's airmass is ) and then compares those values to those they set as the treshholds in all the TM anc TCC tables.
GM's A4 abuse mode works when RPMs are between 2,000 and 4,800 RPMs and can be adjusted via a tune except of course the A6 which at this point tuning tools still cannot tune.
Wheel hop, looks to see if both rear tires are at same rotation speed via wheel sensors.
Being GM could monitor and control the torque converter and the transmission's shift points.
When AB kicks in it removes a percentage of torque depending on what the RPM and throttle angle is for a set amount of time (scaled in AB table) and can go so far as shutting down half the injectors and switch the state of TC is if it is in a locked state or not.
Auto trannie also can be controlled as far as base/brake pressures, and shift torque reduction
PCM and/or TCM also look at RPM, throttle angle and line pressure ( since it is computed by what the MAF's airmass is ) and then compares those values to those they set as the treshholds in all the TM anc TCC tables.
GM's A4 abuse mode works when RPMs are between 2,000 and 4,800 RPMs and can be adjusted via a tune except of course the A6 which at this point tuning tools still cannot tune.
Wheel hop, looks to see if both rear tires are at same rotation speed via wheel sensors.
Your explanation leads to questions about what happens on strong, fast shifts in an M6/M12, because power is being pull there too. This with TC-off. So if the effect is not AM, then it must be TM again.
Ranger