Dennis, it is very possible that your driving ability accounts for the small difference between everything off & everything on. You have been racing (driving) for quite a while. Experience can make the difference as you get a "feel" for the car

When I first ran at Englishtown last summer the guys who ran with evrything off were materailly quicker than those who ran with everything on. (the guys running the "Show & Go" gave me the heads up to run everything off as they were hearing the complaints from guys who had already made some passes)

 

This goes to show you, while these hand held programmers are decent overall, each car is DIFFERENT and for the best results should be dyno'd-this takes out most if not ALL of the guesswork involved and you minimize your chances of exactly this occurring. Or so I've been told by certain programmers which makes alot of sense to me.

 

dude, that sucks, why not ?? or would you be creating a new thread to explain driving around TM ?

 

are these the only sensors used to calculate torque ? this appears to rely heavily upon inbound airflow, engine speed, engine temp and a/c engagement. is it true the a/c disengages at wot ?

how is it calulating true torque output ? how does it know how much power is being transfered to the rear wheels / measuring driveline torque ?

how is it measuring or calculating the 'drag or draw' on the engine output ? what is it using to compare the engine rpm/airflow, etc numbers calculated from the engine rpm/airflow with the rear wheel output ?

 

Zig; An accelerometer (G Tech and others) can calculate Torque and Horsepower with only the weight of the vehicle and acceleration data from a $50 Retail package smaller than a pack of cigarettes. GM doesn't need a lot of data to measure acceleration.

 

Would suggest not wasting the key strokes.

A small group of engineering-challenged members are deeply committed to unsustainable positions that have long been overwhelmed by technical informations from GM, numerous tuners, knowledgeable members who actually race. But these guys don't quit and still pump out the same silly stuff.

Ranger

 

well i wily this. last friday night i took my 6 speed 2006 vette to the strip , raced the quarter, and the best time i could get was a 13.4. the car got jumped out of the hole by 3 or 4 cars but after i hit second gear i blew the camaros doors off. now that certanly sounds like tourque management to me. and by the way i am a verry good driver so skill was not the problem

 

ok, agreed. i fact i have me one of them G tech pro meters. nice little package.

does the c6 have a built in accelerometer ? what i'm trying to determine is how the car is measuring and reporting the torque numbers to the ecm. if it has an accelerometer does it help to keep the car as level as possible and that would help prevent a TM event.

the only sensors i've seen reported that have been mentioned as being used to calculate torque and or load are related to airflow, if i'm wrong please entertain me and teach me. show me the other sensors or where the 'system' is getting it's information, so we can ALL learn to drive around it.

the last time i dissected something i used a methodical approach. first i defined my terms. then i determined how the related components interact with each other.

if we really want to examine TM we need to define the terms, find out how specific readings are obtained, etc.

seat of the pants proof leave much to be desired, too many variables.

since the 'tuners' appear to be the all knowing folks how come we haven't heard of any results from folks that have only the TM numbers raised, no other tuning done, just the TM numbers increased.

the intake side sensors would be used to determine the output potential but what are they using to measure driveline stress and or excessive tirespin. how are they determining a 'break' in output is required.

another question, one of the posted charts claims to show a sudden drop in torque. i i recall correctly torque output is high then drops below zero then is right back where it was before the output was interuppted. is that correct ? why wouldn't torque start at the 'zero' and begin to climb again, the chart shows that it picked up right where it left off. wouldn't the torque stress be twice as great when it rengaged at the high torque point ?

 

If we knew the answers to all of these questions, we would not have to try to convince you guys it exists.

 

 

Do you believe in GOD?

 

Instead of the snotty remarks why don't you try and answer the questions?

If you don't know the answers just say I don't know.

 

I might suggest that you start at post 1 and read the thread. All these questions have been asked and answered. If you have the patience, you will conclude that a small group of engineering-challenged skeptics just can't stop posting the same stuff over and over.

I've been hoping for a long time that they would quit that in the face of overwhelming evidence that TM is indeed a penalty we pay under launches and strong shifts. I've put several of the worst offenders on my "ignore list" making this thread, and others on TM, much easier to read.

Ranger

 

Answered by whom?

 

ok, I followed that link to the vcm software that was provided by ranger. this is what i found.


Engine Torque Model

The PCM uses a airflow, fuel and thermal efficiency and heat based model of torque.

http://www.hptuners.com/help/vcm_edi..._tm_engine.htm


Maximum Torque
The values affect the maximum torque allowed by the VCM.
Many of these values only apply to Electronic throttle control vehicles.

Max Engine Torque vs. RPM vs. Gear: Maximum allowed engine torque
vs. RPM and current gear for transmission protection. Electronic Throttle Fitted Vehicles only.

Max Torque vs. Gear: Maximum allowed engine torque vs. current gear.


found this interesting... what is the TCC ??

Max Torque vs. RPM: Maximum allowed engine torque vs. RPM, whilst TCC locked.

Max Torque: Maximum allowed engine torque for Electronic Throttle
Control fitted vehicles. This value is also used to control a torque
based PCM output, this is used on some Holden vehicles to reduce Fuel
Pump voltage when torque is below this value. WARNING: increasing
this value on those vehicles will result in reduced fuel pressure, lean
conditions and possible engine damage during high torque operation.

http://www.hptuners.com/help/vcm_edi...tm_general.htm


TCC Lock During Shift

TCC Lock During Shift: This switch determines if the TCC will remain
locked during a shift. Note: This is extremely hard on the transmission
and the TCC (if you enable this expect things to break)

TCC Apply/Release Speed
These tables determine the speed at which the TCC is applied or
released in relation to TPS and Gear.

Normal: Apply/Release in Normal mode.
Cruise: Apply/Release in Cruise mode.
Performance: Apply/Release in Performance mode.
Hot: Apply/Release in Hot mode.

TCC Release TPS
This table is the required TPS at a certain speed and gear to release
the TCC.

Normal: Release TPS in Normal Mode.
Cruise: Release TPS in Cruise Mode.
Performance: Release TPS in Performance Mode.

TCC Duty Cycle

Maximum: This is the maximum TCC duty cycle commanded by the PCM
for a given desired line pressure and transmission oil temperature.

Minimum: This is the minimum TCC duty cycle commanded by the PCM
for a given desired line pressure and transmission oil temperature.


http://www.hptuners.com/help/vcm_edi..._trans_tcc.htm


Part Throttle Shift

These tables define the shift speed under non-WOT conditions. Tables
are provided for Normal, Performance, Cruise and when the transmission
is Hot. The shift speeds control both upshifts and downshifts.

Normal: Normal Mode Shift Speeds
Cruise: Cruise Mode Shift Speeds
Hot: Transmission Hot Mode Shift Speeds
Performance: Performance Mode Shift Speeds


http://www.hptuners.com/help/vcm_edi...shiftspeed.htm


Trans Torque Management
These values define the torque management parameters used by the
PCM to reduce engine power (spark retard) to protect the transmission.
Note: changing or disabling these values can potentially reduce
transmission life and/or damage the transmission.

General

Diff Score Enable This switch enables or disables differential scoring
protection

Stall Torque Enable RPM If RPM is above this then stall torque mode is
enabled

Stall Torque Disable RPM If RPM is below this then stall torque mode is
disabled

Abuse Mode

Abuse Mode Enable This switch enables or disables trans abuse mode

Abuse Mode RPM: If Engine RPM is greater than this abuse mode is
enabled

Abuse Mode TPS%: If TSP% is greater than this abuse mode is enabled
(if RPM less than above value)

Abuse Mode Speed: If speed is greater than this, abuse mode is
disabled

Min Input RPM: If Trans Input RPM is less than this abuse mode is
disabled

Abuse Torque Reduction % vs RPM: Percentage torque reduction
applied if abuse mode is enabled versus RPM

Abuse Mode Duration vs. Trans Temp:

Torque Reduction

Torque Reduction Master Enable: This switch enables or disables trans
torque reduction (including abuse mode etc.) (not available in all
calibrations)

Shift Torque Reduction Enable: This switch enables or disables trans
torque reduction during shifts (not available in all calibrations)

Torque Reduction vs Torque vs Shift - Normal: This table defined
percentage torque reduction during shifts in normal mode

Torque Reduction vs Torque vs Shift - Performance: This table defined
percentage torque reduction during shifts in performance mode

Torque Reduction vs Torque vs Shift - Downshift: This table defined
percentage torque reduction during downshifts

Desired Torque: An offset for the electronic throttle torque limits to
increase desired torque in an effort to keep the Automatic trans from
slipping under low RPM load.

http://www.hptuners.com/help/vcm_edi...m_trans_tm.htm


sounds like automatics.....

 

That explains the Torque Converter in the A4 which is where the argument takes place with applying that to the manual transmission.

 

I wasn't being snooty. just saying maybe you believe in GOD by the word of others why not T.M. let me ask you a question. do you race your c6.if you dont why do you care and if it doesnt exist in your car why do you have to tell us it doesnt exist in ours. with all the facts in front of you and if GOD told you in person you still wouldnt believe.if you cant feel it you are just a pasenger not a driver

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I just wish I would have been one of the special few that does not have torque management. How lucky they must feel.

 

It seems to me that people have obliged THAT particular request for far too long already.

(Bless the patient members, I wish I was one of them.)

 

ok, let's just cut to the heart of the matter. please detail the process by which i can replicate a TM event in my MN6.

answers such as, run it hard, learn to drive, etc. don't count.

I'm requesting a step-by-step process by which i can cause a TM event to occur.

one of the first things one much do in order to work with something is being able to replicate it, and replicate it on demand. you then know what causes it and are able to attempt a variety solutions.

if someone is gonna provide 'evidence' that a particular function exists we should be able to discuss that evidence without name calling.

i find it extremly funny that folks start calling names and jumping all over each other when someone asks a question about anothers 'logic' or 'evidence'.

it would seem to me that if someone was able to logically explain the function and it's process then we wouldn't have any option but to believe.

so far the most evidence i've seen is from:

1. aftermarket tuning software (used for multiple vehicles - not vehicle specific)

2. drivers claim the car fell flat (some that seem to be stuck on themselves)

3. magazine articles (repeating the same 'tuner' information)


any one have anything from GM. we had some information posted that was supposed to have come from the 2007 Z06 service manual that mentions TM. any followup from that information ?