C6 1/4 Mile Performance Challenge
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
But if the 1/8 mph is accurate at 102....how do you explain a slower1/8 mile ET compared to Tony? His ET up to the 1/8 mile mark is pretty consistently .03 slower. If he was nossing to get 102 the 1/8 ET would reflect that and his ET would be faster than Tony.
I say the 1/8 mile time is off.
Now Tom, if you are nossing...well I think the Heinekins are on you at PBIR when you come to visit after I'm doing so much to defend you!
I say the 1/8 mile time is off.
Now Tom, if you are nossing...well I think the Heinekins are on you at PBIR when you come to visit after I'm doing so much to defend you!
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
If Toms 1/8 mph was 99 would we even be questioning this?
Subfloor noted that their timers were off, he said at the 1/4, but to me it seems the 1/8 must be off.
We have a mph anomaly that doesn't make sense when we look at other factors, including ET and 1/4 mph.
Occam's Razor would tell us the 1/8 MPH marker at that track is incorrect.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
Note that at the 1/4 he was equal in mph and .024 faster.
Other than the odd 102 mph number, we are really splitting hairs here!
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
tom is faster from the 60 ft to the 660 ft by .025 and was .050 slower at the 60ft
Last edited by dennis50nj; Jan 24, 2011 at 11:16 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,254
Likes: 136
From: Short Hills, NJ
But if the 1/8 mph is accurate at 102....how do you explain a slower1/8 mile ET compared to Tony? His ET up to the 1/8 mile mark is pretty consistently .03 slower. If he was nossing to get 102 the 1/8 ET would reflect that and his ET would be faster than Tony.
I say the 1/8 mile time is off.
I say the 1/8 mile time is off.
But Tom's been on this board for quite a while, he knows the absolute detailed scrutiny and dissection that a time slip with numbers that don't quite "add up" goes through as so many in this part of the board have been executing and analyzing 1/4 mile passes for most of their lives so I don't believe that he'd intentionally pull something like that.
But could the track's timing equipment be off?
Could the previous owner of his motor have maybe slipped a baby cam in there/milled the heads a little bit (Camaro owners often tend to be far more likely to modify a car for performance/racing than Corvette owners, I've know this because I've owned (still do) a few of them
) without telling him for fear that he might think it was abused/raced and not buy it?Could the C6 Z06 exhaust manifolds actually make substantially more power than any of the other known long tubes?
Perhaps all or none of the above?
Subfloor noted that their timers were off, he said at the 1/4, but to me it seems the 1/8 must be off.
We have a mph anomaly that doesn't make sense when we look at other factors, including ET and 1/4 mph.
Occam's Razor would tell us the 1/8 MPH marker at that track is incorrect.
We have a mph anomaly that doesn't make sense when we look at other factors, including ET and 1/4 mph.
Occam's Razor would tell us the 1/8 MPH marker at that track is incorrect.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,108
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Since I have the gm performance parts catalog, the correct part number is 19201992 for the LS3 6.2L.
Block (P/N 12584727)
Crankshaft (P/N 12597569)
Connecting rods (P/N 12617570)
Pistons (P/N 19168089)
Camshaft (P/N 12603844)
Cylinder heads (P/N 12615879)
102mph in the 1/8 isn't available in this model even with bolt ons...LMAO!!!!!
Block (P/N 12584727)
Crankshaft (P/N 12597569)
Connecting rods (P/N 12617570)
Pistons (P/N 19168089)
Camshaft (P/N 12603844)
Cylinder heads (P/N 12615879)
102mph in the 1/8 isn't available in this model even with bolt ons...LMAO!!!!!
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,108
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
From what I can tell, it's not only East Coast guys nor only LS2 guys. 
True, I must agree that you really did provide a whole bunch of information/detail when posting these new times in both this and the main sections
except for one teeny tiny minor tidbit...the whole new long block that the car has in it.
The original post even made reference to the mileage of the car but that wasn't entirely accurate (ie: 74k mile car but only a 4k mile motor etc.).
Again, certainly not grounds for a harsh browbeating or discrediting one's claims but please don't try and ride that "I've been thoroughly and totally up front with you guys about everything" train LOL.
True, I must agree that you really did provide a whole bunch of information/detail when posting these new times in both this and the main sections
except for one teeny tiny minor tidbit...the whole new long block that the car has in it. The original post even made reference to the mileage of the car but that wasn't entirely accurate (ie: 74k mile car but only a 4k mile motor etc.).
Again, certainly not grounds for a harsh browbeating or discrediting one's claims but please don't try and ride that "I've been thoroughly and totally up front with you guys about everything" train LOL.
The motor was before and is now an LS3. It's no more or less than before the other one broke with the exception of the miles used. No difference now than if it had been a garage queen for nearly 3 years. Mileage of the car is what's on the odometer and can't be changed to reflect the mileage on any parts. I certainly did have a significant thread when the first motor bit the dust and indicated the resolution. I never hid the fact.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,108
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Agreed, it is in fact the 1/8th mph that's most puzzling but let's not overlook the role that sixty foot plays in ET/MPH as well. A strong sixty foot is so very critical, especially in an automatic, it takes A LOT of top end charge to overcome a .05 weaker sixty foot, all else being equal.
And this is all assuming that a cammed and FAST intaked LS2 (Tony's car) is equal in power to a barely full bolt ons only LS3 (Tom's car).
Not that I've ever believed that dynos tell all that much of the story about a 1/4 mile pass but Tony's car dyno'd 460+rwhp the night before that pass (time slip above) was made.
What does Tom's car dyno?
Personally, I actually think an LS2 with only a ported FAST intake and true long tube headers (no cam) would be a better power comparison for an LS3 with a stock intake manifold and Z06 exhaust manifolds/H-pipe, but that's just me.
And this is all assuming that a cammed and FAST intaked LS2 (Tony's car) is equal in power to a barely full bolt ons only LS3 (Tom's car).
Not that I've ever believed that dynos tell all that much of the story about a 1/4 mile pass but Tony's car dyno'd 460+rwhp the night before that pass (time slip above) was made.
What does Tom's car dyno?
Personally, I actually think an LS2 with only a ported FAST intake and true long tube headers (no cam) would be a better power comparison for an LS3 with a stock intake manifold and Z06 exhaust manifolds/H-pipe, but that's just me.
If you want a comparison, take a look at the 15:31 timeslip with me in the left lane spinning and Mike in the right. Check his time against the 15:35 slip of me in the right lane. His launch is quicker with the 3.42 gear, but I slowly gain and catch him at the finish with one less shift. No 102 MPH 1/8th on that pass either, just a mere 101.998.
Now that you see the LS2 and LS3 times on the same lane 4 minutes apart, then compare to the 15:39 slip and note that 60' was slightly better and it held steady from the 330' all the way to the stripe. So shoot me for the .036 MPH difference at the 660'.
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Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,108
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,108
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
But if the 1/8 mph is accurate at 102....how do you explain a slower1/8 mile ET compared to Tony? His ET up to the 1/8 mile mark is pretty consistently .03 slower. If he was nossing to get 102 the 1/8 ET would reflect that and his ET would be faster than Tony.
I say the 1/8 mile time is off.
Now Tom, if you are nossing...well I think the Heinekins are on you at PBIR when you come to visit after I'm doing so much to defend you!
I say the 1/8 mile time is off.
Now Tom, if you are nossing...well I think the Heinekins are on you at PBIR when you come to visit after I'm doing so much to defend you!
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,108
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Oh I don't know about the spray, that's just one distantly possible option I suppose.
But Tom's been on this board for quite a while, he knows the absolute detailed scrutiny and dissection that a time slip with numbers that don't quite "add up" goes through as so many in this part of the board have been executing and analyzing 1/4 mile passes for most of their lives so I don't believe that he'd intentionally pull something like that.
But could the track's timing equipment be off?
Could the previous owner of his motor have maybe slipped a baby cam in there/milled the heads a little bit (Camaro owners often tend to be far more likely to modify a car for performance/racing than Corvette owners, I've know this because I've owned (still do) a few of them) without telling him for fear that he might think it was abused/raced and not buy it?
Could the C6 Z06 exhaust manifolds actually make substantially more power than any of the other known long tubes?
Perhaps all or none of the above?
Once again, sixty foot is key. A slower sixty foot with an unusually strong hit after it could equal that of a car with a better sixty and a steady climb towards the 1/8th. But I'm not at all ready to throw the bottle scenario out there on this one, just describing how it could maybe make some sense.
But Tom's been on this board for quite a while, he knows the absolute detailed scrutiny and dissection that a time slip with numbers that don't quite "add up" goes through as so many in this part of the board have been executing and analyzing 1/4 mile passes for most of their lives so I don't believe that he'd intentionally pull something like that.
But could the track's timing equipment be off?
Could the previous owner of his motor have maybe slipped a baby cam in there/milled the heads a little bit (Camaro owners often tend to be far more likely to modify a car for performance/racing than Corvette owners, I've know this because I've owned (still do) a few of them
) without telling him for fear that he might think it was abused/raced and not buy it?Could the C6 Z06 exhaust manifolds actually make substantially more power than any of the other known long tubes?
Perhaps all or none of the above?
Once again, sixty foot is key. A slower sixty foot with an unusually strong hit after it could equal that of a car with a better sixty and a steady climb towards the 1/8th. But I'm not at all ready to throw the bottle scenario out there on this one, just describing how it could maybe make some sense.
When I picked up the Camaro motor, I inspected it closely for any indication that there were problems. My work in the aerospace industry that included failure diagnosis, taught me among other things, how to determine if bolts and parts had been removed and replaced. I saw no evidence of either the timing cover or heads ever being off the block. The valve covers were removed to inspect the valvetrain and of course, I removed the oil pan and pickup to install the Vette ones.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,254
Likes: 136
From: Short Hills, NJ
But please don't assume that everyone who reads your 'new best' posts has seen it, even if it doesn't matter to you. But you're right, if it truly is a stock internal LS3 in there then it doesn't matter...my (somewhat pointless) point was only that you almost spelled out in strict detail what you had for dinner the night before LOL
yet somehow (mistakenly I assume) left off something as EXTREMELY relevant as a motor swap. Other than that though, your passes appear quite legit, your history and reputation on this board are certainly clean enough to prevent most of the regulars from suspecting foul play and I'm sure your future passes with headers will back these up and put this all to rest.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,108
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,254
Likes: 136
From: Short Hills, NJ
Of course the headers and the different DA of that day will skew the results a little but we'll have to trust the existing correction factors to determine the gains/losses even though I don't trust most correction factors.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,108
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,557
Likes: 2,108
From: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
I hope you're right, if you are then it will become quite apparent the very next time you run the car (if you post the results that is) whether it's in Phoenix or Sacramento.
Of course the headers and the different DA of that day will skew the results a little but we'll have to trust the existing correction factors to determine the gains/losses even though I don't trust most correction factors.
Of course the headers and the different DA of that day will skew the results a little but we'll have to trust the existing correction factors to determine the gains/losses even though I don't trust most correction factors.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,254
Likes: 136
From: Short Hills, NJ
Hmm, apparently those guys aren't the only ones grasping at straws and creating new strategies LOL.
Divert the attention much? :
All easily explainable.
Bolt ons only 10.62 = 165 pound driver with great traction (1.41 sixty foot) after a few track visits.
Cam only 10.59 = 275 pound driver and spinning a little at the line (1.45 sixty foot) and even more so further up the track, only one track visit.
The 126mph to 130mph (maybe even more with better traction) is generally what happens when one adds 50+ horsepower to their Corvette.
Based on the raw data and with a little better track prep, Dennis's car as it sits might actually be capable of running 10.4s (10.3s?) at over 131mph in that same air.
But based on your results thus far you'll probably be able to beat that just by adding headers LOL.
Divert the attention much?
:Bolt ons only 10.62 = 165 pound driver with great traction (1.41 sixty foot) after a few track visits.
Cam only 10.59 = 275 pound driver and spinning a little at the line (1.45 sixty foot) and even more so further up the track, only one track visit.
The 126mph to 130mph (maybe even more with better traction) is generally what happens when one adds 50+ horsepower to their Corvette.
Based on the raw data and with a little better track prep, Dennis's car as it sits might actually be capable of running 10.4s (10.3s?) at over 131mph in that same air.
But based on your results thus far you'll probably be able to beat that just by adding headers LOL.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,254
Likes: 136
From: Short Hills, NJ
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,724
Likes: 652
As being one of the other AZ cars that ran with Tom at Sac that weekend, I can tell you without a doubt that Tom is NOT equiped with any spray....NOS, meth, etc. His interior was so stripped out for the trip (no carpeting), he couldn't have hid anything if he wanted too.
Without any data logs to go with the slips from that weekend, it's difficult to bring any additional, appreciable data to the argument.
I believe the 1/4 MPH are in fact correct, as my stock Z goes thru the traps in 3rd at 124-125 MPH....can't go any faster than that with a stock limiter at 7120 RPM and 26" tires in 3rd gear, regardless of RWHP. My car trapped a best of 124.69 at the limiter in the traps.
I did see a best of 1.702 60' that day, but saw a 1/8 MPH of 99+ which appeares a bit high given my 11.20+ ET's (as compared to my better ET's with lesser 1/8 MPH times in AZ). I will also point out that my best runs were near the end of the day, as was Tom's.
This also coincided with his best, most aggressive launches, as shown on the smoldering rubber video. Could these variables be the reason for the awesome 1/8 splits ?.....don't know.
As other's have pointed out, if the slip showed a 100 MPH instead of 102 1/8 MPH split, people would not be questioning the ET (as much ).
Without any data logs to go with the slips from that weekend, it's difficult to bring any additional, appreciable data to the argument.
I believe the 1/4 MPH are in fact correct, as my stock Z goes thru the traps in 3rd at 124-125 MPH....can't go any faster than that with a stock limiter at 7120 RPM and 26" tires in 3rd gear, regardless of RWHP. My car trapped a best of 124.69 at the limiter in the traps.
I did see a best of 1.702 60' that day, but saw a 1/8 MPH of 99+ which appeares a bit high given my 11.20+ ET's (as compared to my better ET's with lesser 1/8 MPH times in AZ). I will also point out that my best runs were near the end of the day, as was Tom's.
This also coincided with his best, most aggressive launches, as shown on the smoldering rubber video. Could these variables be the reason for the awesome 1/8 splits ?.....don't know.
As other's have pointed out, if the slip showed a 100 MPH instead of 102 1/8 MPH split, people would not be questioning the ET (as much
).
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,331
Likes: 18
From: Missouri City Texas
At 2925 pounds it's pretty evident he would have a stripped interior
I would be interested in all of the weight reduction though to see what is easily done for a trip to the track besides the obvious swaybar, rotors, skinnies, battery and passenger seat.
Pulling carpet isn't something I'll do though...too much trouble.
I would be interested in all of the weight reduction though to see what is easily done for a trip to the track besides the obvious swaybar, rotors, skinnies, battery and passenger seat.
Pulling carpet isn't something I'll do though...too much trouble.
Last edited by FloydSummerOf68; Jan 25, 2011 at 08:36 AM.