Which Headers Are Better?
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: Makena, Maui & NM
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,236
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From: Short Hills, NJ
Of course almost anyone in this hobby/business would be quite motivated to tap into Dennis's (or any Cartek car's) PCM to maybe learn a little bit more about proper programming.
And before anyone goes off about how they don't need to copy Julio's tuning to get good results or how they already have access to 'the best' etc please remember that I am talking about TRACK RESULTS here, not merely racing dyno sheets.
As for headers, Cartek (also a very reputable outfit with PROVEN track performance/results) has already done this calculated testing time and again, the Kooks won every time (in both C5s and C6s), on the track and even on the dyno.
Advanced
Joined: Jan 2007
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Kinda makes no sense you said the Kooks and LG's had the same HP and the LG's make more TQ. So what do you mean when you say you need to ask yourself do you want HP or TQ? Apparently yor experience shows that you can have both with LG's.
Big TEX had some lower base numbers and a stock airbox so his dyno may be skewed a bit from the factory airbox. I'm sure he would make the same gains with the airbox as every other guy with an LS3 makes especially once tuned in. Since the headers opened up airflow on the back end, he should actually gain more than most with a vararam or other cold air intake.
Besides that, about how many cars have you seen the LG's exceed the low end of the kooks 1 3/4 on?
Big TEX had some lower base numbers and a stock airbox so his dyno may be skewed a bit from the factory airbox. I'm sure he would make the same gains with the airbox as every other guy with an LS3 makes especially once tuned in. Since the headers opened up airflow on the back end, he should actually gain more than most with a vararam or other cold air intake.
Besides that, about how many cars have you seen the LG's exceed the low end of the kooks 1 3/4 on?
I was responding to the original post about LG vs Melrose not LG vs Kooks. I have only done one C5 with Kooks headers on it and it was an automatic and I really dont have anything to compare the numbers to therefore I can not give you an accurate opinion of the kooks headers.But because I a business owner and install all three I will only give you the data that I have and I am impartial to make or brand.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,577
Likes: 3
From: Southern Maryland Maryland
I don't care what was tested in the 20 and #24 graph but both look like they have issues. Am I the only one that thinks there is a problem with this dyno graph? I'm not implying that the numbers were maniplulated but they don't look like they were tuned to the full potiential.
** Run number 24 has a flat spot in the tune between 3000 and 4000.
** Run number 20 has a flat spot in the tune between 3800 and 5200.
** Run 20 looks to hit either knock retard 2-4 degrees @ 3800 or the timing/fuel combo is not right.
** Run 24 the Air to fuel takes 1500 RPMS to get to the correct ratio
** Run number 24 has a flat spot in the tune between 3000 and 4000.
** Run number 20 has a flat spot in the tune between 3800 and 5200.
** Run 20 looks to hit either knock retard 2-4 degrees @ 3800 or the timing/fuel combo is not right.
** Run 24 the Air to fuel takes 1500 RPMS to get to the correct ratio
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,577
Likes: 3
From: Southern Maryland Maryland
I have multiple Cartek tunes on my laptop and there isnt anything magical in the tunes. I also have 3 tunes from Vettech, Vet Docs, Jeremy Formatto, and yes LG. The best tune I have seen is a speed density tune from PHIL97SVT. Why? There were amazing improvements in drivability from a huge Texas speed cam in the 25x duration area. In fact it was a retune after Julio did the first. Now if Julio did a speed density tune it would have been done the same way and the results better....but it would have cost way more. The tunes all do what is on the HPtuners website and the tables get worked the same way.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
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From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
I was responding to the original post about LG vs Melrose not LG vs Kooks. I have only done one C5 with Kooks headers on it and it was an automatic and I really dont have anything to compare the numbers to therefore I can not give you an accurate opinion of the kooks headers.But because I a business owner and install all three I will only give you the data that I have and I am impartial to make or brand.
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Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
Thanks for the kind words Guy. I really don't think many tuners take the time and effort that is needed to extract 100% of the performance potiental. They just want a decent peak number on the dyno and the rest is history. Tuning is what really makes these electronic fuel injected hotrods fly, just ask Petty or Spetter. I for one want the car to run like a raped ape EVERYWHERE. I have a feeling alot of people are going to be shocked at how well my latest creation runs....
I think you kind of represent the latest in the DIY proof. Having the fastest C5 coupe results you had when everyone else was running slightly faster with the lighter Z06 C5, makes you an authority on the topic but more interestingly the best reason to not sling mud or state that the DIY tuner cant be as good or better than any tuner. Not being employed by Cartek doesnt mean you cant hit the 10's from a garage build and a street tune....low 10's by the way.
I have to make a public thank you for all the help you gave me in learning to tune especially the work in the speed density area. Years ago it was just that I didnt like the lope with a 228 cam now I'm getting a 23x LSK lobe to idle 200 rpm lower than that 228 cam. I've come a long way. Thanks. My tunes are so tight that I can actually run without a MAF now. I doubt any 300-500 dollar tune from any tuner around here can manage that.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
hi Spin, i believe you are right with the lgs for you application and probably for the ls3s, maybe all around with your ported intake and the lgs gave you the around town tq you needed. but with your input of certain applications of all your testing and research, reading your informative posts my recommendations your thoughts Dave inputs Julio's tuning, with this ls2 i don't know how it would be possible too have anymore tq or hp then what i have. if you drove my car i am sure you would agree, and you are welcome too anytime. this car is simply a beast at every rpm range and the tq matches the hp. in the way my car is setup the converter gears power mods its a perfect match
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
Mine on the other hand is rediculously overdone and breaks the tires loose in 3rd. I'll bring mine around.
As far as a track day and the tune. Your tune can be backed up and slight changes can and will have an effect of same day tune/track runs.
When you tuned it wasnt outside and it wasnt on the street.
There is likely not much left though as the internals of your engine were changed and the tune is easy on a stock cam.
There are still 2 bolt-ons you didnt do. One is the MAF sensor. The LS3 runs a 100mm with most aftermarket airboxes. It can be adapted to your airbox. There are 100mm MAF that use the 2006 Zo6 sensor. Its a slight airflow restriction that gets eliminated. Reducing that to negligable is as silly as dismissing an UD pulley or ported TB. It requires a tune for the changes obviously. If it works for you at the track you keep it. If not your stock tune is backed up on CD and reinstalled.
Once you see HPtuners you may see how easy it is to be misled by things because you dont understand them. Having the PC on the seat next to you and logging can show what yu can and cant tweak on a given day. I have seen 2 degrees give 6hp and 10rwtq. Douggie in Florida verifies all this logging twaeking at the track and on a dyno. It works. There is no way a tune on a dyno in one season and set of weather conditions work 100% for all track and weather conditions.
The other I will talk to you about on the phone if you wish.
As far as a track day and the tune. Your tune can be backed up and slight changes can and will have an effect of same day tune/track runs.
When you tuned it wasnt outside and it wasnt on the street.
There is likely not much left though as the internals of your engine were changed and the tune is easy on a stock cam.
There are still 2 bolt-ons you didnt do. One is the MAF sensor. The LS3 runs a 100mm with most aftermarket airboxes. It can be adapted to your airbox. There are 100mm MAF that use the 2006 Zo6 sensor. Its a slight airflow restriction that gets eliminated. Reducing that to negligable is as silly as dismissing an UD pulley or ported TB. It requires a tune for the changes obviously. If it works for you at the track you keep it. If not your stock tune is backed up on CD and reinstalled.
Once you see HPtuners you may see how easy it is to be misled by things because you dont understand them. Having the PC on the seat next to you and logging can show what yu can and cant tweak on a given day. I have seen 2 degrees give 6hp and 10rwtq. Douggie in Florida verifies all this logging twaeking at the track and on a dyno. It works. There is no way a tune on a dyno in one season and set of weather conditions work 100% for all track and weather conditions.
The other I will talk to you about on the phone if you wish.
i can also floor it at 90 mph and spin the tires while not in a transfer, look at the video closely! you will see me spin and wiggle a bit on the 2nd to 3rd shift on a track with drag radials in a full transfer all the way down the 1/4 now there has to be some tq there, and power,
i know about the 100 maf also i could go with the bigger tb. i know tuning at the track for weather would be great just for the fact of my shift points changing because of weather, i have been trying to stay away from that for the fact with my bike and 5.0 i was tuning every minute of the day, running tuning. i just couldn't stop i had to try ever possible factor in every combination. then i got it perfect i don't just race this car i drive it every chance i can. but all your info is greatly appreciated. i have had great enjoyment and learned a lot from your posts you should come down have a nice diner and go to the track with me
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: Makena, Maui & NM
As far as headers as you say, they build 1/4 mile cars. Ask Dave if he would use the same header for an oval track racer. My car's application is the street and not the 1/4 so my application is different.
What is better to 99% of the corvettes out there is the street and TQ rules there. You can talk all you want about Kooks being on all these fast car but it doens tell you anything about what most people do with thier cars.
Believe me, Dave will still like you if you finally buy a set of headers and say to Dave that you like the low end TQ on the street with the LG's. Most people and I mean 95% of them get 20rwtq from them over Kooks.
What is better to 99% of the corvettes out there is the street and TQ rules there. You can talk all you want about Kooks being on all these fast car but it doens tell you anything about what most people do with thier cars.
Believe me, Dave will still like you if you finally buy a set of headers and say to Dave that you like the low end TQ on the street with the LG's. Most people and I mean 95% of them get 20rwtq from them over Kooks.
Do you scan and log your times on the street so you can quantify those dyno numbers, tunes and mods you love talking yada yada yada about?? Do you drag race on the street? I cant see how those dyno numbers translate into seat of the pants feel on the street!! The 99% of the corvettes on the street do not scan and log their times on the street or freeway. There is no quantified math, time etc. etc. to seat of the pants torque feel. I think that is hilarious if you think 99% of corvette drivers can feel LG's supposed low end torque advantage over Kooks. As a former SCCA open wheeled road racer, I know that setting up a car is partially based on seat of the pants feel, but that is defined by lap time on the track. I would venture that 95% of Corvette drivers would not know whether they had LG's or Kooks (or any other brand of headers) on the street in a blind study.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,577
Likes: 3
From: Southern Maryland Maryland
i know your car is fast, but in the 1/4 i can take ya i can also floor it at 90 mph and spin the tires while not in a transfer, look at the video closely! you will see me spin and wiggle a bit on the 2nd to 3rd shift on a track with drag radials in a full transfer all the way down the 1/4 now there has to be some tq there, and power, i know about the 100 maf also i could go with the bigger tb. i know tuning at the track for weather would be great just for the fact of my shift points changing because of weather, i have been trying to stay away from that for the fact with my bike and 5.0 i was tuning every minute of the day, running tuning. i just couldn't stop i had to try ever possible factor in every combination. then i got it perfect i don't just race this car i drive it every chance i can. but all your info is greatly appreciated. i have had great enjoyment and learned a lot from your posts you should come down have a nice diner and go to the track with me
i can also floor it at 90 mph and spin the tires while not in a transfer, look at the video closely! you will see me spin and wiggle a bit on the 2nd to 3rd shift on a track with drag radials in a full transfer all the way down the 1/4 now there has to be some tq there, and power, i know about the 100 maf also i could go with the bigger tb. i know tuning at the track for weather would be great just for the fact of my shift points changing because of weather, i have been trying to stay away from that for the fact with my bike and 5.0 i was tuning every minute of the day, running tuning. i just couldn't stop i had to try ever possible factor in every combination. then i got it perfect i don't just race this car i drive it every chance i can. but all your info is greatly appreciated. i have had great enjoyment and learned a lot from your posts you should come down have a nice diner and go to the track with meIf I wasn't building a ~2000hp LSx, I'd show you guys the first 9 second all motor 346" Corvette Z06.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,549
Likes: 27
From: Southampton NJ
I've never gotten why people think that by spinning tires at the track that means they must make a ton of torque. And to think my little 346ci motor that went a best 135 on motor and 149 on nitrous NEVER spun the tires after the first 35 feet.
If I wasn't building a ~2000hp LSx, I'd show you guys the first 9 second all motor 346" Corvette Z06.
If I wasn't building a ~2000hp LSx, I'd show you guys the first 9 second all motor 346" Corvette Z06.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,236
Likes: 121
From: Short Hills, NJ
I have multiple Cartek tunes on my laptop and there isnt anything magical in the tunes. I also have 3 tunes from Vettech, Vet Docs, Jeremy Formatto, and yes LG. The best tune I have seen is a speed density tune from PHIL97SVT. Why? There were amazing improvements in drivability from a huge Texas speed cam in the 25x duration area. In fact it was a retune after Julio did the first. Now if Julio did a speed density tune it would have been done the same way and the results better....but it would have cost way more. The tunes all do what is on the HPtuners website and the tables get worked the same way. I dont bypass any codes some do. I dont run a ton of timing, some do. I tune the VE table, most dont. I tune with a wideband and have the same results for WOT fueling. All the tunes are in line whith what I have seen in countless tunes and nothing is different from what is in the HPtuners .bin files from around the country. There is a correct way to tune. Dave did enough pulls with my car on his dyno and said I have a 10 second car looking at the fuel curves and power output. I think we agree with his assessment is crediible.
Apparently I built a good runner.
As far as headers as you say, they build 1/4 mile cars. Ask Dave if he would use the same header for an oval track racer. My car's application is the street and not the 1/4 so my application is different.
I dont understand why you dismiss other people's applications.
As far as dyno, I will be heading back there soon for some things including some of his dyno proof with my new headers. If his dyno shows the bigger numbers it still wouldnt mean anything to the kooks camp. When a car does great with a dyno its always dyno's dont mean anything. When a car does poor on his dyno its proof that youre right about LG's. But when the car has lackluster results and its a cartek car on cartek's dyno, then dyno numbers again dont mean anything.
If I was having a 1/4 mile car built for me it would be cartek.
Marc, also please understand I respect that you support your favorite tuner. I like them too and credit their work as top shelf. One thing people arent aware of is that my car has Ls3 heads on an LS2 so my results are also making up for an LS2 anomaly in midband TQ. The exhaust runner as Dave states may have a synergistic relationship with the longer primaries. Dave and I speak about it often and Im open to what made the gains as special to some cars and not others. I respect your Cartek loyalty but even if Dave is right my car still had a benefit from the headers. He credits it and it shouldnt be questioned soley because it was against their recomendation. I spoke with him the night before the swap for his input. I value it. Lou Gigliotti has no special relationship to me but the same can be said about what he builds. If we are talking track results being superior to others in the business why dont you credit Lou for winning the World Challenge race? Its kind of the Pro-8 shootout for raod racing. Lou and Dave dont sling mud at each other in my communications with both of them. They both agree there is little gained in the 1/4 from using any of the top brands of headers but for some reason the Cartek/Kooks crowd seems to keep running to the 1/4 mile acheivements for what is better. Maybe the only way to overcome the Dennis and the magical cartek tune would be for Cartek to build a World Challenge car with Kooks 1 3/4. See my point?
What is better to 99% of the corvettes out there is the street and TQ rules there. You can talk all you want about Kooks being on all these fast car but it doens tell you anything about what most people do with thier cars.
Believe me, Dave will still like you if you finally buy a set of headers and say to Dave that you like the low end TQ on the street with the LG's. Most people and I mean 95% of them get 20rwtq from them over Kooks. Dave didnt hang up wth me when I told him the results I got. He looked for a reason it was there. We came up with a few ideas but it shouldnt bother you when someone doesnt buld a car for the 1/4. Personally if I did lose something on the ET, I wouldnt be pissed with the massive gains it made on the street. I got +34rwtq.
I will be at Cartek in a week or so......they are my tuner. Come down and hang out for lunch. By the way, I daytrade too.
Apparently I built a good runner.
As far as headers as you say, they build 1/4 mile cars. Ask Dave if he would use the same header for an oval track racer. My car's application is the street and not the 1/4 so my application is different.
I dont understand why you dismiss other people's applications.
As far as dyno, I will be heading back there soon for some things including some of his dyno proof with my new headers. If his dyno shows the bigger numbers it still wouldnt mean anything to the kooks camp. When a car does great with a dyno its always dyno's dont mean anything. When a car does poor on his dyno its proof that youre right about LG's. But when the car has lackluster results and its a cartek car on cartek's dyno, then dyno numbers again dont mean anything.
If I was having a 1/4 mile car built for me it would be cartek.
Marc, also please understand I respect that you support your favorite tuner. I like them too and credit their work as top shelf. One thing people arent aware of is that my car has Ls3 heads on an LS2 so my results are also making up for an LS2 anomaly in midband TQ. The exhaust runner as Dave states may have a synergistic relationship with the longer primaries. Dave and I speak about it often and Im open to what made the gains as special to some cars and not others. I respect your Cartek loyalty but even if Dave is right my car still had a benefit from the headers. He credits it and it shouldnt be questioned soley because it was against their recomendation. I spoke with him the night before the swap for his input. I value it. Lou Gigliotti has no special relationship to me but the same can be said about what he builds. If we are talking track results being superior to others in the business why dont you credit Lou for winning the World Challenge race? Its kind of the Pro-8 shootout for raod racing. Lou and Dave dont sling mud at each other in my communications with both of them. They both agree there is little gained in the 1/4 from using any of the top brands of headers but for some reason the Cartek/Kooks crowd seems to keep running to the 1/4 mile acheivements for what is better. Maybe the only way to overcome the Dennis and the magical cartek tune would be for Cartek to build a World Challenge car with Kooks 1 3/4. See my point?
What is better to 99% of the corvettes out there is the street and TQ rules there. You can talk all you want about Kooks being on all these fast car but it doens tell you anything about what most people do with thier cars.
Believe me, Dave will still like you if you finally buy a set of headers and say to Dave that you like the low end TQ on the street with the LG's. Most people and I mean 95% of them get 20rwtq from them over Kooks. Dave didnt hang up wth me when I told him the results I got. He looked for a reason it was there. We came up with a few ideas but it shouldnt bother you when someone doesnt buld a car for the 1/4. Personally if I did lose something on the ET, I wouldnt be pissed with the massive gains it made on the street. I got +34rwtq.
I will be at Cartek in a week or so......they are my tuner. Come down and hang out for lunch. By the way, I daytrade too.
I do applaud LGM for their road racing results and expertise, as a kid I was strictly an IMSA/SCCA road racing enthusiast and I remember when Lou first came onto the scene, that establishment's success since then cannot be denied nor discredited.
But I guess my current preferences for drag racing overshadow my normally openminded viewpoint LOL. Truth is most of my driving is done on the street and I love the stoplight to stoplight thing, LG headers might actually suit me better as well but I'm just more familiar with the great/proven results I've seen from so many various packages/combos all utilizing Kooks products.
I'll definiltely come by the shop when you're there.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 27,236
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From: Short Hills, NJ
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2005
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From: salem OR
? He has a factory airbox no?
I think its time the challenge went out to you.
I will install LG's on your car and tune in the differences. You dyno and if they dont help, I put your kooks back on for free. If they dyno more you buy them, pay the license fee for my HPtuners cable, AND your avatar gets a LG logo in it for 1 month.
I do the tune and the install.
I can never understand that when a tuner like 21century mucle cars does a back to back on the same car, same dyno, same day and they get 1.5hp more up top and 20 more TQ at peak, it gets dismissed.
But when a guy with less mods than a guy with kooks sees 13 less HP on different dyno's, on different cars, different days, then the test is valid. Why is 21 cent MC wrong when it shows the LG's to be the better header? Why is it dismissed in the same thread when XtremeMotorsports had the same finding? Xtreme said car(s) not car.
You dismiss a bunch of cars making gains over the kooks but it takes one car with a factory airbox and stat that missed 15HP as proof that kooks are better?
Application aside, road race guys universally like the LG's so the 1/4 track may not be the right application since the TQ isnt going to affect you much, but are you willing to take my challenge?
If not, how about a wager; I am heading to Texas for some free modds for forum members down there and a lot of steaks. How about I put a Vararam and 160 stat on BIG TEX's car and retune at LG and we will see if the results come up the same....if the results show at least a 13hp/13tq increase, you pay for the guys airbox and my plane ticket? I pay you the same money to you if it doesn show the gains. I already know what the airbox does for the 08's.
I think its time the challenge went out to you.
I will install LG's on your car and tune in the differences. You dyno and if they dont help, I put your kooks back on for free. If they dyno more you buy them, pay the license fee for my HPtuners cable, AND your avatar gets a LG logo in it for 1 month.
I do the tune and the install.
I can never understand that when a tuner like 21century mucle cars does a back to back on the same car, same dyno, same day and they get 1.5hp more up top and 20 more TQ at peak, it gets dismissed.
But when a guy with less mods than a guy with kooks sees 13 less HP on different dyno's, on different cars, different days, then the test is valid. Why is 21 cent MC wrong when it shows the LG's to be the better header? Why is it dismissed in the same thread when XtremeMotorsports had the same finding? Xtreme said car(s) not car.
You dismiss a bunch of cars making gains over the kooks but it takes one car with a factory airbox and stat that missed 15HP as proof that kooks are better?
Application aside, road race guys universally like the LG's so the 1/4 track may not be the right application since the TQ isnt going to affect you much, but are you willing to take my challenge?
If not, how about a wager; I am heading to Texas for some free modds for forum members down there and a lot of steaks. How about I put a Vararam and 160 stat on BIG TEX's car and retune at LG and we will see if the results come up the same....if the results show at least a 13hp/13tq increase, you pay for the guys airbox and my plane ticket? I pay you the same money to you if it doesn show the gains. I already know what the airbox does for the 08's.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,094
Likes: 197
From: Colorado Springs, CO
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11
i know your car is fast, but in the 1/4 i can take ya i can also floor it at 90 mph and spin the tires while not in a transfer, look at the video closely! you will see me spin and wiggle a bit on the 2nd to 3rd shift on a track with drag radials in a full transfer all the way down the 1/4 now there has to be some tq there, and power, i know about the 100 maf also i could go with the bigger tb. i know tuning at the track for weather would be great just for the fact of my shift points changing because of weather, i have been trying to stay away from that for the fact with my bike and 5.0 i was tuning every minute of the day, running tuning. i just couldn't stop i had to try ever possible factor in every combination. then i got it perfect i don't just race this car i drive it every chance i can. but all your info is greatly appreciated. i have had great enjoyment and learned a lot from your posts you should come down have a nice diner and go to the track with me
i can also floor it at 90 mph and spin the tires while not in a transfer, look at the video closely! you will see me spin and wiggle a bit on the 2nd to 3rd shift on a track with drag radials in a full transfer all the way down the 1/4 now there has to be some tq there, and power, i know about the 100 maf also i could go with the bigger tb. i know tuning at the track for weather would be great just for the fact of my shift points changing because of weather, i have been trying to stay away from that for the fact with my bike and 5.0 i was tuning every minute of the day, running tuning. i just couldn't stop i had to try ever possible factor in every combination. then i got it perfect i don't just race this car i drive it every chance i can. but all your info is greatly appreciated. i have had great enjoyment and learned a lot from your posts you should come down have a nice diner and go to the track with me
With a drag pack and the minimum suspension mods for my car, you arent taking H/C/gear/N2O.