Spin outs? C6 problem? Does anyone care?
Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 570
Likes: 12
From: Front Royal Virginia
I didnt get the error code, I am pretty sure had the AH been in comp mode or off, nothing would have happened other than me countersteering a bit.
But who knows, it's comp mode for me from now on on the street and off for track use, I want to be responsible for my actions not some computer.
But who knows, it's comp mode for me from now on on the street and off for track use, I want to be responsible for my actions not some computer.
Did you get a "SERVICE ACTIVE HANDLING" error? Given how the steering sensor works (thanks PowerLabs), a erroneous and spontaneous "hard right turn" signal from the sensor seems extremely unlikely.
We have, so far:
A) events where reportedly experienced drivers lose control of a lightweight, high-horsepower vehicle.
B) incidents of active handling components failing.
What we are missing is the root cause analysis or 'smoking gun' linking A and B. Just because "A" and "B" exist at the same time doesn't prove they are related. This does not mean that a linkage will never be established -- just that no reliable evidence of such linkage currently exists.
We have, so far:
A) events where reportedly experienced drivers lose control of a lightweight, high-horsepower vehicle.
B) incidents of active handling components failing.
What we are missing is the root cause analysis or 'smoking gun' linking A and B. Just because "A" and "B" exist at the same time doesn't prove they are related. This does not mean that a linkage will never be established -- just that no reliable evidence of such linkage currently exists.
Drifting
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,407
Likes: 0
From: Canton/Detroit Michigan
Did you get a "SERVICE ACTIVE HANDLING" error? Given how the steering sensor works (thanks PowerLabs), a erroneous and spontaneous "hard right turn" signal from the sensor seems extremely unlikely.
We have, so far:
A) events where reportedly experienced drivers lose control of a lightweight, high-horsepower vehicle.
B) incidents of active handling components failing.
What we are missing is the root cause analysis or 'smoking gun' linking A and B. Just because "A" and "B" exist at the same time doesn't prove they are related. This does not mean that a linkage will never be established -- just that no reliable evidence of such linkage currently exists.
We have, so far:
A) events where reportedly experienced drivers lose control of a lightweight, high-horsepower vehicle.
B) incidents of active handling components failing.
What we are missing is the root cause analysis or 'smoking gun' linking A and B. Just because "A" and "B" exist at the same time doesn't prove they are related. This does not mean that a linkage will never be established -- just that no reliable evidence of such linkage currently exists.
Obviously, this kind of thing would be for GM to test, especially if safety is an issue.
Pro
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 538
Likes: 1
From: Niles Michigan
Hi,
In a past life, I worked on contact reliability issues with Bell Labs. I was working on making contacts more reliable for central station switching applications. I also worked as a counsultant on the GM check engne light issue in the late 80's.
I'm reading that there is a potential lethal problem with a connector under the steering wheel. The Steering WPS (wheel position sensor) has a resistance value that is monitored by the active handling computer. The AHC will apply the brakes on one or more wheels to get the car to turn if you turn the steering wheel and the car does not follow your original steering wheel turn. What this means is you cannot do a doughnut or if you go into a turn too fast the car will follow your steering commands and not spin out.
Now if the connector under the dash has an intermittent connection, it can send a fake message to the AHC that you have turned the wheel. (without looking up the values, I would guess that this will send a right turn indication to the AHC). This is the stage for a real problem.
Now what to do about this?
It's a long story, but many connectors fail on the first use, much less when they are getting pulled back and forth with the steering column making the 'fretting' issue a real problem. Actually, fretting usually describes micro movements. The problem here is closer to wearing. Anyway, for a contact to be reliable, it must have what Bell Labs calls an gas tight connection.
This can mean a pure gold to pure gold contact that assures no corrosion, or a high pressure area that has a gas tight connection. It may also mean you try to take cheap contacts and keep air out other ways.
The best fix, short of soldering the wires, is to use a liberal coating of white lube on the contacts. At first glance, this might sound crazy, but the contacts will poke thru the lube to make a good contact and the white lube keeps air out to help keep the contact good. If you have worn thru the contact plating, you will have dissimilar metals eating away at each other and contact reliability issues. Keeping air out helps keeps contacts from corroding, even if you have plating problems. (Almost all cheap contacts have plating problems) Low current applications like this have many more reliability problems than higher current connections.
I had two patents relating to this issue and from extensive testing can assure you, lube helps. You might see some car manufactures using white lube in all of their connectors that might be exposed to salt and water. The lube that we sold to Bell Labs was $1600 a quart for central station applications, but white lube is a good alternative
So now lets assume that you have had a DIC mesaage to service the active handling. You might want to have checked your life insurance at this time.
If the connector under the steering wheel has a bad connection it will send the fake signal to the Acive Handling computer and the active handling system will apply the brakes to get the car to turn, as the computer thinks you have turned the steering wheel. Let's say you are tooling along a two lane road at 80 mph and a small bump causes the connector to send a hard right turn signal to the AHC and the computer will apply hard right rear wheel brakes. Off you go to the right. YIKES.
I believe this is happening a lot more than people realize. Many people are being blamed for not being able to drive a high performance car, but as you read other members description of these events, it seems like the car may be responsible for some of the problems.
I am repairing a 2007 C6. The owner says the car just spun out on its own and went into the ditch rolling three times. Can you believe, no one was hurt and the frame was not damaged. I did retrieve active handling error codes and I would be willing to bet this caused the car to spin out.
Dave
In a past life, I worked on contact reliability issues with Bell Labs. I was working on making contacts more reliable for central station switching applications. I also worked as a counsultant on the GM check engne light issue in the late 80's.
I'm reading that there is a potential lethal problem with a connector under the steering wheel. The Steering WPS (wheel position sensor) has a resistance value that is monitored by the active handling computer. The AHC will apply the brakes on one or more wheels to get the car to turn if you turn the steering wheel and the car does not follow your original steering wheel turn. What this means is you cannot do a doughnut or if you go into a turn too fast the car will follow your steering commands and not spin out.
Now if the connector under the dash has an intermittent connection, it can send a fake message to the AHC that you have turned the wheel. (without looking up the values, I would guess that this will send a right turn indication to the AHC). This is the stage for a real problem.
Now what to do about this?
It's a long story, but many connectors fail on the first use, much less when they are getting pulled back and forth with the steering column making the 'fretting' issue a real problem. Actually, fretting usually describes micro movements. The problem here is closer to wearing. Anyway, for a contact to be reliable, it must have what Bell Labs calls an gas tight connection.
This can mean a pure gold to pure gold contact that assures no corrosion, or a high pressure area that has a gas tight connection. It may also mean you try to take cheap contacts and keep air out other ways.
The best fix, short of soldering the wires, is to use a liberal coating of white lube on the contacts. At first glance, this might sound crazy, but the contacts will poke thru the lube to make a good contact and the white lube keeps air out to help keep the contact good. If you have worn thru the contact plating, you will have dissimilar metals eating away at each other and contact reliability issues. Keeping air out helps keeps contacts from corroding, even if you have plating problems. (Almost all cheap contacts have plating problems) Low current applications like this have many more reliability problems than higher current connections.
I had two patents relating to this issue and from extensive testing can assure you, lube helps. You might see some car manufactures using white lube in all of their connectors that might be exposed to salt and water. The lube that we sold to Bell Labs was $1600 a quart for central station applications, but white lube is a good alternative
So now lets assume that you have had a DIC mesaage to service the active handling. You might want to have checked your life insurance at this time.
If the connector under the steering wheel has a bad connection it will send the fake signal to the Acive Handling computer and the active handling system will apply the brakes to get the car to turn, as the computer thinks you have turned the steering wheel. Let's say you are tooling along a two lane road at 80 mph and a small bump causes the connector to send a hard right turn signal to the AHC and the computer will apply hard right rear wheel brakes. Off you go to the right. YIKES.
I believe this is happening a lot more than people realize. Many people are being blamed for not being able to drive a high performance car, but as you read other members description of these events, it seems like the car may be responsible for some of the problems.
I am repairing a 2007 C6. The owner says the car just spun out on its own and went into the ditch rolling three times. Can you believe, no one was hurt and the frame was not damaged. I did retrieve active handling error codes and I would be willing to bet this caused the car to spin out.
Dave
1) Do you have any photos of where the steering wheel position sensor is?
2) I see you mention white grease, how about dielectric grease?
3) Would it just be wise to disconnect the sensor connection, coat it with dielectric grease and reconnect it?
4) Should everone just do this as soon as they buy their C6, or should you wait until only if you get an error message?
Pro
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 552
Likes: 28
From: North Las Vegas Nevada
Great Discussion
During the 120 mile drive from St George, Utah to Las Vegas in my newly purchased (one hour old) 2002 C5 couple, the right front brake activated twice for just a few nanoseconds
. These were separate events separated by about 30 miles. This happened on the interstate at 70 mph and it really got my attention. But there were no warning or fault messages??? This was my first C5 and I am thinking WTF. As I cleared the interstate in Las Vegas, the Active Handling Warning illuminated, but the right front brake did not activate. The car went to the dealer the next morning. They replaced the yaw sensor on the steering column. I have not had another problem since
. However, since I use the car for the Silver State Classic Challenge open road race at speeds up to 165 mph, I hope the problem never occurs again
.
. These were separate events separated by about 30 miles. This happened on the interstate at 70 mph and it really got my attention. But there were no warning or fault messages??? This was my first C5 and I am thinking WTF. As I cleared the interstate in Las Vegas, the Active Handling Warning illuminated, but the right front brake did not activate. The car went to the dealer the next morning. They replaced the yaw sensor on the steering column. I have not had another problem since . However, since I use the car for the Silver State Classic Challenge open road race at speeds up to 165 mph, I hope the problem never occurs again .
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,436
Likes: 4
From: Everett Wa
I don't know about any of this. Most system designers design this thing to be disabled if any fault is detect. What this means if you get a service active handling message it means you are not protected. If you start to lose it you have to correct for it.
And this brings up another problem for what I would think many older drivers have to over come. I have lost it because of active handling but it was because the car was trying to correct what was happening at the same time I was. This snapped me the other way faster than you can say oh ****. No damage done but it made me find a empty wet parking lot and play a little bit.
What I found for the most part is if you have all the nannies on you have to let the car correct itself and resit the urge to do it yourself. Within reason the car will do that though as we all know the system can not save you if you really push it. For instance you maybe able to do a planned dount with everything on you will not be able to do a controlled drift. And if you get the rearend really hanging out and correct for it when the car tries to correct for it that is when it snaps the other way.
IMO the active handling and traction control are great for normal driving or even spirited driving within reason. It at least one ocassion it saved by butt. But like anything if you don't take the time to learn not only the car but what its capability are in the different modes it may end up biting you.
And this brings up another problem for what I would think many older drivers have to over come. I have lost it because of active handling but it was because the car was trying to correct what was happening at the same time I was. This snapped me the other way faster than you can say oh ****. No damage done but it made me find a empty wet parking lot and play a little bit.
What I found for the most part is if you have all the nannies on you have to let the car correct itself and resit the urge to do it yourself. Within reason the car will do that though as we all know the system can not save you if you really push it. For instance you maybe able to do a planned dount with everything on you will not be able to do a controlled drift. And if you get the rearend really hanging out and correct for it when the car tries to correct for it that is when it snaps the other way.
IMO the active handling and traction control are great for normal driving or even spirited driving within reason. It at least one ocassion it saved by butt. But like anything if you don't take the time to learn not only the car but what its capability are in the different modes it may end up biting you.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,436
Likes: 4
From: Everett Wa
Hmm I not sure that I would use any nannies in a competitive areana like that unless I knew exactly what the fault modes are. Seems safer just to shut it all off and drive the car.
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
How Much Horsepower Every Corvette Engine "LOST" in 1972
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 DOs and DON'Ts for Protecting Your Convertible Top!
Michael S. Palmer
Top 10 Most Explosive Corvettes Ever Made: Power-to-Weight Ratio Ranked!
Joe Kucinski
150 hp to 1,250 hp: Every Corvette Generation Compared by the Specs That Matter
Joe Kucinski
8 Coolest Corvette Pace Cars (and Replicas) of All Time
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvette Engines RANKED by Peak Torque (70+ Years of Muscle!)
Joe Kucinski
Corvette ZR1X Will Be Pacing the Indy 500, And Could Probably Race, Too!
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Corvettes Coming to Mecum Indy 2026!
Brett Foote
Top 10 C9 Corvette MUST-HAVES to Fix These C8 Generation Flaws!
Michael S. Palmer
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
I don't know about any of this. Most system designers design this thing to be disabled if any fault is detect. What this means if you get a service active handling message it means you are not protected. If you start to lose it you have to correct for it.
And this brings up another problem for what I would think many older drivers have to over come. I have lost it because of active handling but it was because the car was trying to correct what was happening at the same time I was. This snapped me the other way faster than you can say oh ****. No damage done but it made me find a empty wet parking lot and play a little bit.
What I found for the most part is if you have all the nannies on you have to let the car correct itself and resit the urge to do it yourself. Within reason the car will do that though as we all know the system can not save you if you really push it. For instance you maybe able to do a planned dount with everything on you will not be able to do a controlled drift. And if you get the rearend really hanging out and correct for it when the car tries to correct for it that is when it snaps the other way.
IMO the active handling and traction control are great for normal driving or even spirited driving within reason. It at least one ocassion it saved by butt. But like anything if you don't take the time to learn not only the car but what its capability are in the different modes it may end up biting you.
And this brings up another problem for what I would think many older drivers have to over come. I have lost it because of active handling but it was because the car was trying to correct what was happening at the same time I was. This snapped me the other way faster than you can say oh ****. No damage done but it made me find a empty wet parking lot and play a little bit.
What I found for the most part is if you have all the nannies on you have to let the car correct itself and resit the urge to do it yourself. Within reason the car will do that though as we all know the system can not save you if you really push it. For instance you maybe able to do a planned dount with everything on you will not be able to do a controlled drift. And if you get the rearend really hanging out and correct for it when the car tries to correct for it that is when it snaps the other way.
IMO the active handling and traction control are great for normal driving or even spirited driving within reason. It at least one ocassion it saved by butt. But like anything if you don't take the time to learn not only the car but what its capability are in the different modes it may end up biting you.
yes, i too have had that oh sh-- moment. from that point on they get turned off (all off mode ah/tc off) whenever i drive. my oh sh-- moment put me onto a cement divider and broke the right rear knuckle.
it is very very difficult (in the heat of the moment) to let the car do it's own thing (talk about feeling unnatural). i'm used to driving cars without the 'nannies' and am so very glad gm let's us turn them off. for some odd reason i believe that in a few years that we will no longer be able to turn them off.
yes, it also took a bit to get used to abs and at times (coming back down from a tripple digit speed) i sometimes find myself working the pedal instead of letting the system do it. i will 'walk' it down instead of lettin them lock-up. that grating feeling from the abs just feels to much like it's tearing up the car. but, back on topic....
imo, the a/h controls are the most difficult to work with. yes, they help during 'suprise' events but when you're actually paying attention and 'driving' the car they just get in the way. sometimes you want the rear to come around. anyone ever kicked the rear out so you could make that 'sharp' turn? imo, a/h just gets in the way.
Last edited by Zig; Jan 18, 2008 at 07:41 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,670
Likes: 134
From: merritt island fl
C1 of Year Finalist (stock) 2019
2016 C1 of the Year Finalist
2015 C2 of the Year Finalist
I took the Level I at Spring Mountain in December. In every case except one exercise, the A/H is ON!
You can go damn fast and stay out of trouble with A/H, especially after some actual track experience.
Getting into trouble while horsing around on public roads is not an A/H problem.
You can go damn fast and stay out of trouble with A/H, especially after some actual track experience.
Getting into trouble while horsing around on public roads is not an A/H problem.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 552
Likes: 28
From: North Las Vegas Nevada
Yaw sensor location
Reference the 120 mile trip to Vegas. The technician said that they replaced the yaw sensor on the steering column??? I do know that they had to remove the dash to replace an active handling sensor and I was not a happy person
. A brand new Corvette and the dash has to be removed. I know that when that happens, all that stuff does not always go back in the way it came out . The bottom line to this discussion seems to be--Can a malfunctioning active handling system cause you to lose control? Modern computers have allowed automobile companies to build incredible machines . Sometimes they push the envelope too far or somtimes the testing public pushes the technology further than the designers expected. I spent several years flying the F-16, which has a computerized fly by wire flight control system. Despite lots of initial testing at Edwards AFB, once the plane was flown by the pilots in the field, new problems popped out. I lost lots of friends in the F-16. Just be careful in that new high tech Vette
.
. A brand new Corvette and the dash has to be removed. I know that when that happens, all that stuff does not always go back in the way it came out . The bottom line to this discussion seems to be--Can a malfunctioning active handling system cause you to lose control? Modern computers have allowed automobile companies to build incredible machines . Sometimes they push the envelope too far or somtimes the testing public pushes the technology further than the designers expected. I spent several years flying the F-16, which has a computerized fly by wire flight control system. Despite lots of initial testing at Edwards AFB, once the plane was flown by the pilots in the field, new problems popped out. I lost lots of friends in the F-16. Just be careful in that new high tech Vette .
Heel & Toe
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Carmel IN
Spin out
In December my 05 C6 A4 spun out to the right. I got aggressive(3/4 throttle) in a roundabout in 30 degree weather and the combination of the hard downshift(4 spd automatic , no paddles), cold weather and possible operator error caused it to dart right, after a brief fishtail to the left. I believe the cold surface and the crosswalk paint, caused the fishtail to the left. But I quickly realized the car was going right no matter what I did. It was not in competitive mode. I would have hoped the traction control and the stability control would have helped. This makes me wonder if maybe there was some other electronic variable that contributed to my spin out.
After 6K in repairs, which included a new drivers fender and three new wheels (2 rear and one front) and paint, I am back in action. I jumped a curb and hit two small trees. The dealer found not trouble codes with the traction control.
After 6K in repairs, which included a new drivers fender and three new wheels (2 rear and one front) and paint, I am back in action. I jumped a curb and hit two small trees. The dealer found not trouble codes with the traction control.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 906
Likes: 0
From: Skippack PA
Fact#3: I have never, in my entire life, met a man who admitted to being at fault for crashing his car. NEVER! Search the forums for "crash" or "crashed". You will find nothing but "the road was wet", "I hit a patch of water/ice/oil/sand/dirt/whatever", "someone cut me off", "the car wasn't right", "my tires were bald", "there was something wrong with the road", etc etc etc. Where are all the drunk drivers, the people who drive too fast, take corners too fast, don't know what they are doing, get in over their heads, etc etc... Where are the people who think that, just because they bought a powerful car, have now all of a sudden become race car drivers and feel like the street is their racetrack?
Just a thought
<snip>
Just a thought
<snip>
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 0
F^*$ driver's error. In my case, I had just pulled out of a Dunkin Donut. I was going 20mph, then the AH message came on. The car started stopping FAST and then pulled to the right hard at the same time. I was able to get it off the curb and the woman behind me didnt rear end me. Even when I was stopped, the AH was still trying to act up as I apply the gas. I had to restart the computer to reset it. I know this is probably related to a sensor issue as I get the active handling service, abs and traction control light every so often, the dealer are giving me a tough time regarding fixing it. I just filed a complaint with the NHTSB, hopefully GM will do a recall on it. I hate freaking electrical problem.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,149
Likes: 11
From: Greater Detroit Metro MI, when I'm not travelling.
In December my 05 C6 A4 spun out to the right. I got aggressive(3/4 throttle) in a roundabout in 30 degree weather and the combination of the hard downshift(4 spd automatic , no paddles), cold weather and possible operator error caused it to dart right, after a brief fishtail to the left. I believe the cold surface and the crosswalk paint, caused the fishtail to the left. But I quickly realized the car was going right no matter what I did. It was not in competitive mode. I would have hoped the traction control and the stability control would have helped. This makes me wonder if maybe there was some other electronic variable that contributed to my spin out.
After 6K in repairs, which included a new drivers fender and three new wheels (2 rear and one front) and paint, I am back in action. I jumped a curb and hit two small trees. The dealer found not trouble codes with the traction control.
After 6K in repairs, which included a new drivers fender and three new wheels (2 rear and one front) and paint, I am back in action. I jumped a curb and hit two small trees. The dealer found not trouble codes with the traction control.
Racer
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 421
Likes: 0
From: Fontana Ca
Boy, no kidding about the AH NOT always saving your butt, but I rather have it than not. In my '95 Vette I almost lost it once on a quick left/right turn that my street took (yes, I know the technology has improved now.) I fishtailed when I was not expecting it. The anti-lock brakes came on and slowed me down enough to not hit the curb. The second time it was raining, and I did not know that you should not use the CC during rain. I thought I was being careful by setting it at 60mph on the freeway. As the car spun around and the anti-lock brakes were trying to stop me, I could only think OHHHHH SHHHHH...... BANG!!!! Hi center divider, my name is.... Live and learn, and definitively driver error.
On my C6, I took a left corner too fast on a dry street that has a HIGH center (to help with rain getting to the gutter). The combination of speed, and the lift I got from the "hump" of the road, had me within inches of the gutter, and it's a three lane wide street. AH came on, but really it was driver error that made it come on in the first place.
I don't know what would have happened had I not had the AH; and I have not had it come on unexpectedly. However, with technology, there is always the possibility of errors, and in the end, all errors are man-made.
On my C6, I took a left corner too fast on a dry street that has a HIGH center (to help with rain getting to the gutter). The combination of speed, and the lift I got from the "hump" of the road, had me within inches of the gutter, and it's a three lane wide street. AH came on, but really it was driver error that made it come on in the first place.
I don't know what would have happened had I not had the AH; and I have not had it come on unexpectedly. However, with technology, there is always the possibility of errors, and in the end, all errors are man-made.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 43,084
Likes: 33
From: Raleigh / Rolesville NC
Spin out to the right, service active handling?
Yup my wifes 2004 C5 had this problem. Turned out it was a faulty YAW sensor under the passenger seat. Changed YAW sensor and problem solved.
any time now I see service active handling I know my bearings are just about shot
Yup my wifes 2004 C5 had this problem. Turned out it was a faulty YAW sensor under the passenger seat. Changed YAW sensor and problem solved.
any time now I see service active handling I know my bearings are just about shot
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 7
From: no. jersey Photo by Stro
St. Jude Donor '08
If you see the warning and have the connector serviced, I'm suggesting that you or the tech use white lithium lube on the connector. You should also make a determined effort to keep the connector from flexing when the steering wheel is moved in and out.
does this apply to telescopic 3lt's only? I have a base 06
does this apply to telescopic 3lt's only? I have a base 06