100%

 

While I do agree with you, I've tried to use some of this same logic in discussions about how my fellow Americans are so obsessed with buying predominantly Japanese brand vehicles over domestic nameplate ones and yet I was met with some serious resistance (on this board especially) about it.
I too find it ironic that the very same people that would NEVER buy a Chinese long tube header because of their love/devotion to this great nation and it's tax paying job base still wouldn't hesitate one millisecond in buying their wives (or themselves) a Nissan (err, Infiniti) G37 over a Cadillac CTS.
I know it's not exactly the same free market/trading principle and again I do for the most part totally agree with you. But I'm hoping that one would think twice about preaching to the world about supporting American production and employment while there are multiple Honda/Toyota/BMW products (yes, even the ones assembled in the U.S.) sitting next to their Corvette in the driveway. All this while GM, Ford and Chrysler are still struggling to survive because normally honest and loyal American citizens refuse to buy their vehicles.

 

No kidding. We went through this in the LS1 F-body market. Headers were far more expensive in 2001 than in 2005. By 2005, there were just more competitors (before fleabay headers became a factor) and a range of offerings were available. The top brands came down in price a bit and those wanting cheaper alternatives had them. I see that as no different than LG offering a street header and the Pro. Clearly they know that price matters to some customers, whereas others (me ) want their top offering. Different people make different decision about what best serves their needs.

 

I don't buy the R&D or "older design" cost factor. Look at Lemon's and what they offer for what chassis and motor combo and that will end it all right there. They charge on price: 1200 bucks, and I can guarantee you there's more R&D to fit 2.5 primaries on a 588BBC 67 camaro with factory power stearing, tall deck and raised port heads than on our C6.

Comon sense doesn't not apply here, rather, an open mind does: we have 0 facts on those headers far as how well they will last, nor how much hp they can support and put down. So until someone has some real world testing, then we can all speculate either negatively or positevely, but both are fact less. We do know that the OP said there was one fitting issue, but the rest bolted on just perfectly, so here's one fact. Now in a few month, we'll find out more I'm sure...

 

Regardless of how much it takes...ripping off someones work is wrong..and illegal in many industries. Like I said..you can spin it anyway you want...but if the knock off headers were $700-1000 people would go no where near them. Only reason they are even considered is because they are OMG! cheap.

 

Amen!!!

 

I disagree, those headers would need to be labeled as Kooks, which they are not, to make it "illegal". there's nothing illegal of making your own headers, even taking design ideas from other companies. what makes it wrong is when you label it the same. Example, knock offs rolex: if they are called Rolex and are not real ones, then yes, that is illegal. Now if they look like a rolex, but are branded with another name, then you are SOL with it being illegal.
Now is it a "problem" if you are the original kooks makers and a dealer for them, well yes, because now you have to compete with another brand that looks like yours at 1/3 of the price, but rest assured, there's alot of people that, if wanting Kooks headers, will just buy Kooks, while other just want headers and don't care of having a brand name with it, so they'll buy the cheaper ones.
It's alot like clothes: some wear top of the line brands, other just don't care as long as they look good in it...nothing wrong with either one!

 

Well said.


I didn't know that we had actual confirmation that these headers are a "rip-off" of someones headers? Are they? Or are they just more cheaply priced headers that look similar to other brands headers? (as headers often do)
EDIT: Well I brought up pics of the headers in question, and some Kooks, and they are definitely extremely similar. That is kind of lame, I admit. However, so is paying $1200+ for headers.


I disagree. I wouldn't buy the "knock off" as we're calling them now because $700-$1000 is still too much to pay for a header boutique brand or otherwise, for a guy like me.

 

PM sent

 

Bingo! no one said they were a "rip-off", they just look alot like Kooks, but they are not advertised as Kooks or a brand produced by Kooks, they are a no name brand headers, sold as a no name brand headers, made out of polished stainless, sold for alot less than a brand name headers.
The only aggravation that aroused from this thread was from the vendors and the rest of the masses that bought expensive headers (I bought brand name headers too) and have been presented with a possible competitive product that sells for 1/3 of the price, probably will put down the same hp of the "brand name" (that still needs to be seen, but little doubt that it wouldn't be on par with the rest) but may or may not last as long (quality of the tubing is in question right now, and how well they will last). In there favor, I'd be pissed too if those 400$ headers put down the same hp as my LG and lasted just as long...that we don't know though

edit: that and the whole "buying from China" thing which is more of a political debate than it is of tech/performance talk at this point...just sayin'

 

Like I said..spin it anyway you want to try and make it okay in your mind..but I think we all know the answer here

 

that apply for you as well

 

I'd say that a man with an 08 Z06, an 03 Viper, and a 63 convertible Corvette doesn't need to save money on a set of headers.

.....and your opinion about cats is irrelevant.


I like a man that does his homework.



Ummm....you have been at your job for 33 years and, lets say for the sake of this demonstration that this was your first job and that you were 18 years old when you started. This would make put you at a minimum age of 51 years old. Does the above comment really sound like something a 51 year old man would say?



No problem. Let me know if you have any questions.


Apples and oranges.



I completely understand that you feel the way you do since this directly affects your livelihood. I used to own a Ducati dealership/motorcycle speed shop, so I have been where you are. Some motorcycle exhausts cost as much as Kooks or AR. I never could understand the high cost, except that companies will "charge whatever the market will bear". I've heard it over and over. This is not based on R&D costs, overhead, etc. It is based on greed. This is a common mentality among many companies and it is reflected in your last sentence. The price of the vehicle should have no bearing on the cost of the parts. This is the "corvette tax".

This same header set from Kooks is $1607.38 + shipping. BlackMoon paid $365 shipped for his. That is almost 4 1/2 times the cost and that doesn't take into consideration shipping. It has already been said that the difference in bad stainless vs good stainless is minimal. It is my opinion that the quality of the stainless is very good if not equal. I'm sorry but I just can't accept that 4 1/2 times the difference in cost is justified.



....again with the price of the vehicle.




Is it really fair to throw all Chinese products into one bundle? I'm sure that you don't feel that your company is the same as every other company that sell headers in the US. And, like you, I'm sure there are different companies over there with different standards. Who is to say that this company sets a higher standard for itself? As far as I know, they only make headers/exhausts for corvettes and vipers, and there is also a twin turbo kit for a viper. They also chose what they decided was the best set headers on the market to mimic (a form of flattery?). It sounds like an attempt by them to make high end products for high end cars at a reasonable price. The same could be done here.

I was one of the first people to put the eBay headers on a C5. I have had those headers on the car for over two years and they look like brand new. These C6 headers are much better quality than the C5 headers were.

Sorry, I really don't mean to seem like I am bashing on you. I am just trying to show another viewpoint.

 

could alwasy post pics of your C5 headers....and C6 headers installed...I like pics and pics of shinny things are even better!!

 

My only view point is!* That these are not Kook's or ARH or LG quality, fit or material.the price reflects that. Upon close inspection from the pictures on ebayshows that the collector area is rough looking workmanship to say the least.Picture 2 header on the right shows it! I would not be happy with that on my Corvette. http://jbrlsr.com/?aid=5336118839&bi...%26viewitem%3DLike I said If I wanted to save money, on headers.* I'd spend it on one of the big 3headers used. I sold my used Kook's coated with cats that were purchased for 1650.00 with free shipping from Maryland Speed. I sold them for 1100.00 in a few days on the forum. I learned long ago the cheap price is long forgotten when you have a problem. Like buying a cheap Visegrip copylooks the same but when you use much it fails to do the job.Then it never did the job as well* in the first place. Same with the headers. Doesn't bother me what you put on. Just coming on here and saying should preform on par with Kook's. With no data. When they are a cheap copy! The Kook's or ARH can be boxed up and returned for exchange. Or returned later if they crack. These are tough luck if something happens.OR they don't fit right. IMO Nothing personal just different strokes for different folks.

 

One thing you're not paying for on the chinese headers is the distributer's markup. And I would also be very surprised if all the Stainless steel tubing in the Kook's headers is made in the USA. No way to prove that though. I also believe that if Kooks could buy their headers from a Chinese mfg. for $ 300.00, sell them to a distributer for $ 1200.00 and then to the public for $ 1600.00...they would. Don't give me your flag waving BS, that's the way today's business works.

 

Hey guys I just got an email from the seller that states that these ' Chineese' headers are being made in San Antonio, TX. I already asked him for their company name but doubt he'll provide it since he's selling them. If this proves to be true all this discussion was for nothing. Sorry.

 

And you believe that...

If it were true..one would think the supplier would have no issue broadcasting where they are made to stop the rumors. Being able to show these as a American made would be a great tool for sales if they really are. However...saying "They are made in Texas..but how and where is secret"....haha..if you believe that...

I know I can go online and easily find out where Kooks, ARH, SLP, LG and so forth are made.

It's funny how when there is a benift it their wallet people give stuff a free ride that should not be.

 

That's part of getting a lower price on something -you make concessions, for the money that you save. That's how "it" works. It's even MORE funny, when someone gives some over-priced product a "free ride" b/c they don't know any better, or because they've been suckered into believing that the actual costs for building a header results in a reasonable, $1600 retail price.

Again, why don't YOU find the source, and become a legitimate dealer of these so I can buy them from YOU? Don't worry about your well being, being jeopardized by MY purchase of a cheaper header elsewhere; The "texas header", is no threat to your lively hood as far as I'm concerned, because I never for a second, considered buying a boutique, $1600 header from you or any other vendor. Not happening! But you COULD attract my business (and many other's) by offering a mass produced, value header. It could even be plain mild steel, for all I care! but in this case, you're getting all upset about a customer, that you've never had to begin with. (me)



Good to see you acknowledge that everything we're talking about here (origin, quality, material, etc) IS exactly that; rumor, and thus far, little to no facts -except that the flange actually IS 9/16" and the collecter does have the "spike" in it (whatever that thing does). However, I doubt that the header seller knows that there is a raging debate that needs to be addressed, on the CF about where these headers are made, what they're made from, who did it, and what Oat/shay enriched oil they lovingly caressed on it to achive simply the highest quality finish one will find at any reaches of the earth, blah, blah, blah... They're headers. Bent tubing (probably by a machine), welded to a flange and a stamped collector. There is no "Magic" in the pipe that moves the gasses, who made them, or what their pedigree is.

This conversation is beat though. You (vendor) think I'm a criminal for buying Chinesium, rip-off headers. I think you guys are criminals for charging $1600 for mass produced headers. And I'm aggrivated that I can't buy a cheap, (but effective) header and no current vendor will even talk about offering or trying to find that product to sell...as if putting a mild steel header on the "all mighty, $50k Corvette" is sacralige or something. We're clearly at a stand off. You can deal cheap headers for "me", or we can go our separate ways. I'll never spend over $1k for headers that bolt to a SBC though.

 

This reminds me so much of the BRAND X header debate at the gto board. Branden (maryland speed) carried the cheap header though, and even then he pretty much discouraged people from buying the bargain header. Im sure he had his share of returns and headaches. the fit was not good and people were probably callling and complaining. Those headers werent even stainless though but m.s. even offered a jet hot coating package.

This is not one of those you pay for what you get situations to me. i personally could never justify a 1600 dollar header. Ill stay stock before i ever pay that. We all know what goes into a set of headers. I have installed some kooks and arh headers and they are great, but for that type of money they should bolt themselves on and tune the car .


Also, i dont understand how the guy that bought these had these installed in an hour and twelve minutes but left tough install on the ebay feedback...