New Header Discussion
Former Vendor
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,511
Likes: 22
From: Southern MD
In terms of HP...headers are the only "bolt-on" that will give you 30HP. CAI...maybe 10 at the wheels. Catback..almost nothing.
You miss a point. People (including me) pay that high price for catbacks
for the MUSIC & TUNES it makes, not for performance. When I got my C6, I said to myself-where is the exhaust noise from that V8? So I went out and bought my Corsa Sports system soon after. Did that Vette then sound good!
It wasnt until a year later that I even thought of buying performance mods.
I see performance mods in terms of value per .10 second gained in the
1/4 mile. Headers are around $1700 for about a .25 gain. That is about
$700 per .10. Expensive, not a real good value and why folks complain. CAI's like the Honker or VR can pick you up .20 for $500.00. That's $250 per .10. Much better value. And so on.
for the MUSIC & TUNES it makes, not for performance. When I got my C6, I said to myself-where is the exhaust noise from that V8? So I went out and bought my Corsa Sports system soon after. Did that Vette then sound good!
It wasnt until a year later that I even thought of buying performance mods.I see performance mods in terms of value per .10 second gained in the
1/4 mile. Headers are around $1700 for about a .25 gain. That is about
$700 per .10. Expensive, not a real good value and why folks complain. CAI's like the Honker or VR can pick you up .20 for $500.00. That's $250 per .10. Much better value. And so on.
Racer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 463
Likes: 4
From: Park City, UT
Very interesting thread... I appreciate the OP's perspective and am taking his post at face value. Thus, I'm working on the assumption the spirit of this thread is for a healthy debate.
I find it interesting that the "Big 3" that are mentioned are staying out of this, but not in the way you might think. The reality is each of these Companies is in business to make a profit. That is, after paying for materials, paying for labor, numerous fixed and variable costs, etc. All that, while trying to make a product that outperforms their competition to vie for our business. So, I wouldn't blame them for not taking part...
Which brings me to my point (I know it was a long time coming).
The reality is these products are not bought or sold in bulk. In fact, American Racing built my headers after I placed my order. Talk about made to order!
When selling anything that doesn't sell in bulk it is critical to increase your overall profit margin to make up for the lag between production cycles. Not to mention, "profit" is not the difference between what it directly costs to make something and the price you sell it for. In fact, PROFIT = Revenue - Variable Direct Costs (labor and materials) + Fixed Direct Costs (overhead directly associated to the production, like electricty) + Fixed Indirect Costs (rent) + Sunk Costs (which can't be recovered, like one-off equipment).
Meaning, the only way to pay for all those costs, fixed, variable, direct, indirect, sunk, etc. in addition to the lapses in production and sales is to charge a premium for their product. To that, even if you discounted the premium that has to be paid for American Labor, you can't get around all those other costs mentioned above (plus all those taxes) without someone paying for it. That someone, is us.
Is there wiggle room for the producers and vendors? ABSOLUTELY! Is there a ton of wiggle room? Not really...
Do I fault these folks for making a profit and feeding their families? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Should they consider reducing the cost of their products to be more competitve? Probably, but there's no way they'll ever get to the $400 (as the OP mentioned).
Of course, I did just buy a set of American Racing Headers (last week) and would do so again tomorrow. Thanks again guys!
Why? To:
a) keep as much of my $ away form China as possible,
b) ensure these manufacturers stay in business to continue building great products, and
c) to ensure there's some accountability in the quality and reliability of my purchase
Couple of Side Notes:
1) I know my Amercian Racing Headers were made in the USA (see above), but I can't confirm Kooks and LG are not "outsourcing" their manufacturing, because I haven't asked them... Perhaps someone should?
2) Interestingly enough, I bought my wife and Audi TT Quatro as her daily driver, and I drive a Nissan Pickup in bad weather. Why? Because they were the best quaulity/value I could find. I was willing to pay a premium for the Audi and the Nissan was the best bang for the buck (sound like a 2 seat sports car you know of?). Heck, when GM makes a solid all wheel drive 225HP+ roadster that averages 31 mpg, I'll probably buy it for my wife.
3) Nearly all microprocessors and major brand of computers are made in China. Am I a hypocrate for using computers? Nope, it's just that China is about the only place to get computers now adays, and as much as I hate sending my $ to China, too much is made there to keep from doing it. Anyone buy an iPod lately?
I find it interesting that the "Big 3" that are mentioned are staying out of this, but not in the way you might think. The reality is each of these Companies is in business to make a profit. That is, after paying for materials, paying for labor, numerous fixed and variable costs, etc. All that, while trying to make a product that outperforms their competition to vie for our business. So, I wouldn't blame them for not taking part...
Which brings me to my point (I know it was a long time coming).
The reality is these products are not bought or sold in bulk. In fact, American Racing built my headers after I placed my order. Talk about made to order!
When selling anything that doesn't sell in bulk it is critical to increase your overall profit margin to make up for the lag between production cycles. Not to mention, "profit" is not the difference between what it directly costs to make something and the price you sell it for. In fact, PROFIT = Revenue - Variable Direct Costs (labor and materials) + Fixed Direct Costs (overhead directly associated to the production, like electricty) + Fixed Indirect Costs (rent) + Sunk Costs (which can't be recovered, like one-off equipment).
Meaning, the only way to pay for all those costs, fixed, variable, direct, indirect, sunk, etc. in addition to the lapses in production and sales is to charge a premium for their product. To that, even if you discounted the premium that has to be paid for American Labor, you can't get around all those other costs mentioned above (plus all those taxes) without someone paying for it. That someone, is us.
Is there wiggle room for the producers and vendors? ABSOLUTELY! Is there a ton of wiggle room? Not really...
Do I fault these folks for making a profit and feeding their families? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Should they consider reducing the cost of their products to be more competitve? Probably, but there's no way they'll ever get to the $400 (as the OP mentioned).
Of course, I did just buy a set of American Racing Headers (last week) and would do so again tomorrow. Thanks again guys!
Why? To:
a) keep as much of my $ away form China as possible,
b) ensure these manufacturers stay in business to continue building great products, and
c) to ensure there's some accountability in the quality and reliability of my purchase
Couple of Side Notes:
1) I know my Amercian Racing Headers were made in the USA (see above), but I can't confirm Kooks and LG are not "outsourcing" their manufacturing, because I haven't asked them... Perhaps someone should?
2) Interestingly enough, I bought my wife and Audi TT Quatro as her daily driver, and I drive a Nissan Pickup in bad weather. Why? Because they were the best quaulity/value I could find. I was willing to pay a premium for the Audi and the Nissan was the best bang for the buck (sound like a 2 seat sports car you know of?). Heck, when GM makes a solid all wheel drive 225HP+ roadster that averages 31 mpg, I'll probably buy it for my wife.
3) Nearly all microprocessors and major brand of computers are made in China. Am I a hypocrate for using computers? Nope, it's just that China is about the only place to get computers now adays, and as much as I hate sending my $ to China, too much is made there to keep from doing it. Anyone buy an iPod lately?
Last edited by A-Pex; Feb 25, 2009 at 11:46 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,259
Likes: 16
From: Monroe Township New Jersey
St. Jude Donor '05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
St. Jude donor in memory of jpee '14
Why are we talking about headers. Now, everything can be reverse engineered and manufactured for pennies in Asia & south of the border.
The problem is no one will actually tell you that the item your just purchased was a "Knock off" There are no facts and it is not common knowledge. Most of the time the vendor as well as the consumer pays the normal price. There are many gray market goods that come into this country..... and it is almost impossible to tell the fakes from the originals.
American companies in an effort to prevent the proliferation of these goods are destroying some of their own distribution and dealer networks. It is almost impossible to by American in a global economy.
Unless you can prove a vendor is selling a "knock off" picking on our vendors is pointless. You might be very surprised to find out where your some very expensive health related products may have been made
It would serve a better purpose to ask for a group discount then again I doubt if we can spend our way of this recession as we already spent our way into it
The problem is no one will actually tell you that the item your just purchased was a "Knock off" There are no facts and it is not common knowledge. Most of the time the vendor as well as the consumer pays the normal price. There are many gray market goods that come into this country..... and it is almost impossible to tell the fakes from the originals.
American companies in an effort to prevent the proliferation of these goods are destroying some of their own distribution and dealer networks. It is almost impossible to by American in a global economy.
Unless you can prove a vendor is selling a "knock off" picking on our vendors is pointless. You might be very surprised to find out where your some very expensive health related products may have been made
It would serve a better purpose to ask for a group discount then again I doubt if we can spend our way of this recession as we already spent our way into it
Racer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 463
Likes: 4
From: Park City, UT
That's what I call "bang for the buck"! Thanks again guys!
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,206
Likes: 6
From: Makena, Maui & NM
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,537
Likes: 1,403
From: Bethesda MD
Which brings me to my point (I know it was a long time coming).
The reality is these products are not bought or sold in bulk. In fact, * Big 3 * built my headers after I placed my order. Talk about made to order!
When selling anything that doesn't sell in bulk it is critical to increase your overall profit margin to make up for the lag between production cycles.
The reality is these products are not bought or sold in bulk. In fact, * Big 3 * built my headers after I placed my order. Talk about made to order!
When selling anything that doesn't sell in bulk it is critical to increase your overall profit margin to make up for the lag between production cycles.
The C6 headers are expensive and the market doesn't really seem to be that small, at least compared to Porshe and other names being kicked around. Competition eventually brought down prices in the F-Body world, hopefully it will come to the vette too.
** I removed the name of your header brand from your quote. This was to highlight a concept, not to argue about a particular vendor's business model.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,331
Likes: 18
From: Missouri City Texas
Maybe this is the problem. There is no reason for your headers to be "made to order" as there is no custom fitment. This is a mail order standard part we are talking about. Small batches tend to increase costs. Doing bulk production might be the answer. Lack of inventory can be for many reasons including risk reduction, cash flow management etc.
The C6 headers are expensive and the market doesn't really seem to be that small, at least compared to Porshe and other names being kicked around. Competition eventually brought down prices in the F-Body world, hopefully it will come to the vette too.
** I removed the name of your header brand from your quote. This was to highlight a concept, not to argue about a particular vendor's business model.
The C6 headers are expensive and the market doesn't really seem to be that small, at least compared to Porshe and other names being kicked around. Competition eventually brought down prices in the F-Body world, hopefully it will come to the vette too.
** I removed the name of your header brand from your quote. This was to highlight a concept, not to argue about a particular vendor's business model.
This is almost exactly what I was going to respond with.
Made to order headers do not make very good business sense.
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Former Vendor
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,511
Likes: 22
From: Southern MD
Most companies do keep stock. I know everyone things that Corvette headers are super popular...but in reality...your talking a maybe a few hundred a year per part number. This is not like Hooker small block volume. Kooks I know does headers in runs of like 30 on their more popular part numbers, and then builds the other stuff to order like stepped headers to order. That is the whole idea though..a custom header at the production level. It also is a huge factor in the cost. Kooks get calls all day for an extra O2 bung here, weird stepped set up there and they accomodate them..were Hooker won't even touch the car because the volume is to low. Also..any well run business is lean inventory wise. This is a very cyclical business..where you busy in the spring..dead in the fall. You need to find a way to keep overhead low and people working at all points however.
Lastly, another factor in cost, is that the stainless/TIG construction welding takes 3x as long as MIG welding, and the welders make more. (A good TIG welder is almost considered an artist). What I am saying is to do what Kooks does in having a business of making custom headers is gonna cost a lot more than say...some contract manufactuer slotting in a run of 20 headers when Walmart lawn furniture orders are slow.
Lastly, another factor in cost, is that the stainless/TIG construction welding takes 3x as long as MIG welding, and the welders make more. (A good TIG welder is almost considered an artist). What I am saying is to do what Kooks does in having a business of making custom headers is gonna cost a lot more than say...some contract manufactuer slotting in a run of 20 headers when Walmart lawn furniture orders are slow.
Maybe this is the problem. There is
no reason for your headers to be "made to order" as there is no custom fitment. This is a mail order standard part we are talking about. Small batches tend to increase costs. Doing bulk production might be the answer. Lack of inventory can be for many reasons including risk reduction, cash flow management etc.
The C6 headers are expensive and the market doesn't really seem to be that small, at least compared to Porshe and other names being kicked around. Competition eventually brought down prices in the F-Body world, hopefully it will come to the vette too.
** I removed the name of your header brand from your quote. This was to highlight a concept, not to argue about a particular vendor's business model.
no reason for your headers to be "made to order" as there is no custom fitment. This is a mail order standard part we are talking about. Small batches tend to increase costs. Doing bulk production might be the answer. Lack of inventory can be for many reasons including risk reduction, cash flow management etc.
The C6 headers are expensive and the market doesn't really seem to be that small, at least compared to Porshe and other names being kicked around. Competition eventually brought down prices in the F-Body world, hopefully it will come to the vette too.
** I removed the name of your header brand from your quote. This was to highlight a concept, not to argue about a particular vendor's business model.
CF Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 23,313
Likes: 25
From: Tucson Arizona
Instead of complaining about the cost of certain American made headers and saying manufacturers/vendors are charging unfair prices...it’s simple, if you don’t want to pay the price take your business elsewhere or don't buy the product at all. There is no unfairness...a free market works very efficiently.
To those who feel the foreign knock-off headers are so good...buy them! IMO quality isn’t always commensurate with a high price but the old adage “you get what you pay for” generally holds true.
Interesting thread...good discussion!
With all due respect, comparing long tube headers to heroin is simply ridiculous! Long tube headers are made and sold legally in the U.S. To the best of my knowledge, long tube headers are sold with a specific disclaimer stating "long tube headers are not CARB certified" and/or they're 'only for (legal) off-road/track use.'
All sorts of legally produced products can be converted to an illegal use (firearms, medications, etc.) but it doesn't mean the product was manufactured or sold illegally.
To those who feel the foreign knock-off headers are so good...buy them! IMO quality isn’t always commensurate with a high price but the old adage “you get what you pay for” generally holds true.
Interesting thread...good discussion!
Here is a different take on the high cost of headers. First off, putting headers on is essentially illegal in the USA since it involves removing the oem cats which is a NO-NO in Federal Law. Even by putting on hi-flo cats does nothing to remove this illegality. The point I am making is almost anything you can buy that is illegal...usually carries a high cost like heroin, Streetsweeper shotguns etc. 
So just think when you pay your $1500 for Kooks or whatever, that you are paying extra for illegal goods. In fact, I am kinda surprised that they have not already been banned! So hurry and buy them now! Oh, I myself did get my header "fix" from a Maryland "Speed" Dealer named "Bandito Brandon"
So just think when you pay your $1500 for Kooks or whatever, that you are paying extra for illegal goods. In fact, I am kinda surprised that they have not already been banned! So hurry and buy them now! Oh, I myself did get my header "fix" from a Maryland "Speed" Dealer named "Bandito Brandon"
All sorts of legally produced products can be converted to an illegal use (firearms, medications, etc.) but it doesn't mean the product was manufactured or sold illegally.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: southern Ct
That's the best part in all of this...people all day pay $1000-$1600 for an axleback that is nothing but sound, and you never see any complaining like they do over headers? And there are cheap options for exhaust on the C6 like Flowmaster that is alumized and cost $400. The funny thing is..it is one of our slowest selling exhausts! Instead, Corsa, B&B, and Borla are the big movers.
You want to talk Corvette mark up...you can get a whole catback for a GTO from Corsa for less than a Corvette axleback. That is the Corvette tax.
Yet people act like Kooks is stealing money from your kids college fund or something..when their headers cost the same from car to car..and are typically among the cheaper of the high end models if you call around.
I am starting to think...
If you would seriously consider buying a $400 set of headers knock off headers...odds are you were not gonna buy a top end header anyway.
and conversly...
If you were seriously considering buying a set of Kooks...the sudden emergance of $400 ebay knock offs is not gonna cost Kooks a sale.
So..really this all does not matter in the end in terms of Kooks gaining or loosing sale.
But...rest assured...untill these things are legitamatly sold by a real business....they are nothing but the flea market Rolex's of the exhaust world.
You want to talk Corvette mark up...you can get a whole catback for a GTO from Corsa for less than a Corvette axleback. That is the Corvette tax.
Yet people act like Kooks is stealing money from your kids college fund or something..when their headers cost the same from car to car..and are typically among the cheaper of the high end models if you call around.
I am starting to think...
If you would seriously consider buying a $400 set of headers knock off headers...odds are you were not gonna buy a top end header anyway.
and conversly...
If you were seriously considering buying a set of Kooks...the sudden emergance of $400 ebay knock offs is not gonna cost Kooks a sale.
So..really this all does not matter in the end in terms of Kooks gaining or loosing sale.
But...rest assured...untill these things are legitamatly sold by a real business....they are nothing but the flea market Rolex's of the exhaust world.
Just as a quick side note, a lot of those $100-500 trinkets for the cars that you spoke about have more material cost that a set of headers.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: southern Ct
Very interesting thread... I appreciate the OP's perspective and am taking his post at face value. Thus, I'm working on the assumption the spirit of this thread is for a healthy debate.
I find it interesting that the "Big 3" that are mentioned are staying out of this, but not in the way you might think. The reality is each of these Companies is in business to make a profit. That is, after paying for materials, paying for labor, numerous fixed and variable costs, etc. All that, while trying to make a product that outperforms their competition to vie for our business. So, I wouldn't blame them for not taking part...
Which brings me to my point (I know it was a long time coming).
The reality is these products are not bought or sold in bulk. In fact, American Racing built my headers after I placed my order. Talk about made to order!
When selling anything that doesn't sell in bulk it is critical to increase your overall profit margin to make up for the lag between production cycles. Not to mention, "profit" is not the difference between what it directly costs to make something and the price you sell it for. In fact, PROFIT = Revenue - Variable Direct Costs (labor and materials) + Fixed Direct Costs (overhead directly associated to the production, like electricty) + Fixed Indirect Costs (rent) + Sunk Costs (which can't be recovered, like one-off equipment).
Meaning, the only way to pay for all those costs, fixed, variable, direct, indirect, sunk, etc. in addition to the lapses in production and sales is to charge a premium for their product. To that, even if you discounted the premium that has to be paid for American Labor, you can't get around all those other costs mentioned above (plus all those taxes) without someone paying for it. That someone, is us.
Is there wiggle room for the producers and vendors? ABSOLUTELY! Is there a ton of wiggle room? Not really...
Do I fault these folks for making a profit and feeding their families? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Should they consider reducing the cost of their products to be more competitve? Probably, but there's no way they'll ever get to the $400 (as the OP mentioned).
Of course, I did just buy a set of American Racing Headers (last week) and would do so again tomorrow. Thanks again guys!
Why? To:
a) keep as much of my $ away form China as possible,
b) ensure these manufacturers stay in business to continue building great products, and
c) to ensure there's some accountability in the quality and reliability of my purchase
Couple of Side Notes:
1) I know my Amercian Racing Headers were made in the USA (see above), but I can't confirm Kooks and LG are not "outsourcing" their manufacturing, because I haven't asked them... Perhaps someone should?
2) Interestingly enough, I bought my wife and Audi TT Quatro as her daily driver, and I drive a Nissan Pickup in bad weather. Why? Because they were the best quaulity/value I could find. I was willing to pay a premium for the Audi and the Nissan was the best bang for the buck (sound like a 2 seat sports car you know of?). Heck, when GM makes a solid all wheel drive 225HP+ roadster that averages 31 mpg, I'll probably buy it for my wife.
3) Nearly all microprocessors and major brand of computers are made in China. Am I a hypocrate for using computers? Nope, it's just that China is about the only place to get computers now adays, and as much as I hate sending my $ to China, too much is made there to keep from doing it. Anyone buy an iPod lately?
I find it interesting that the "Big 3" that are mentioned are staying out of this, but not in the way you might think. The reality is each of these Companies is in business to make a profit. That is, after paying for materials, paying for labor, numerous fixed and variable costs, etc. All that, while trying to make a product that outperforms their competition to vie for our business. So, I wouldn't blame them for not taking part...
Which brings me to my point (I know it was a long time coming).
The reality is these products are not bought or sold in bulk. In fact, American Racing built my headers after I placed my order. Talk about made to order!
When selling anything that doesn't sell in bulk it is critical to increase your overall profit margin to make up for the lag between production cycles. Not to mention, "profit" is not the difference between what it directly costs to make something and the price you sell it for. In fact, PROFIT = Revenue - Variable Direct Costs (labor and materials) + Fixed Direct Costs (overhead directly associated to the production, like electricty) + Fixed Indirect Costs (rent) + Sunk Costs (which can't be recovered, like one-off equipment).
Meaning, the only way to pay for all those costs, fixed, variable, direct, indirect, sunk, etc. in addition to the lapses in production and sales is to charge a premium for their product. To that, even if you discounted the premium that has to be paid for American Labor, you can't get around all those other costs mentioned above (plus all those taxes) without someone paying for it. That someone, is us.
Is there wiggle room for the producers and vendors? ABSOLUTELY! Is there a ton of wiggle room? Not really...
Do I fault these folks for making a profit and feeding their families? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Should they consider reducing the cost of their products to be more competitve? Probably, but there's no way they'll ever get to the $400 (as the OP mentioned).
Of course, I did just buy a set of American Racing Headers (last week) and would do so again tomorrow. Thanks again guys!
Why? To:
a) keep as much of my $ away form China as possible,
b) ensure these manufacturers stay in business to continue building great products, and
c) to ensure there's some accountability in the quality and reliability of my purchase
Couple of Side Notes:
1) I know my Amercian Racing Headers were made in the USA (see above), but I can't confirm Kooks and LG are not "outsourcing" their manufacturing, because I haven't asked them... Perhaps someone should?
2) Interestingly enough, I bought my wife and Audi TT Quatro as her daily driver, and I drive a Nissan Pickup in bad weather. Why? Because they were the best quaulity/value I could find. I was willing to pay a premium for the Audi and the Nissan was the best bang for the buck (sound like a 2 seat sports car you know of?). Heck, when GM makes a solid all wheel drive 225HP+ roadster that averages 31 mpg, I'll probably buy it for my wife.
3) Nearly all microprocessors and major brand of computers are made in China. Am I a hypocrate for using computers? Nope, it's just that China is about the only place to get computers now adays, and as much as I hate sending my $ to China, too much is made there to keep from doing it. Anyone buy an iPod lately?
In response to the bulk sale/production..with the cost of producing one set of headers being as low as it is,(and it is lower than you may think)manufacterers could produce many more of them and sell them to vendors at a discounted rate and make more money on volume because that vendor can now sell twice as much at the lower price..
My thoughts are simple, if we all sit back and let manufacturers set the market where they want, we are suckers. If we speak up, we may not make any difference, but if we keep quite, its a certainty
Premium Supporting Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,779
Likes: 129
From: Amityville ny 631-608-1986
I posted this in another thread.
I'd like to welcome any Corvette owner located in our area, who's willing to drive to our facility, to tour our shop and see exactly how our systems are manufactured and to what extent we go too to produce an outstanding product. I'd also like to show you why we only use U.S. made materials and how easily corners can be cut to reduce manufacturing costs. Those on the fence about going the cheaper Chinese route can then make an honest accessment on whether or not it's worth it. Bring your camera's if you wish. We can easily put this debate to rest.
Nick
I'd like to welcome any Corvette owner located in our area, who's willing to drive to our facility, to tour our shop and see exactly how our systems are manufactured and to what extent we go too to produce an outstanding product. I'd also like to show you why we only use U.S. made materials and how easily corners can be cut to reduce manufacturing costs. Those on the fence about going the cheaper Chinese route can then make an honest accessment on whether or not it's worth it. Bring your camera's if you wish. We can easily put this debate to rest.
Nick
Former Vendor
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,511
Likes: 22
From: Southern MD
No one is saying because your are a Corvette owner you should be "overcharged". My whole point is headers are the one thing the cost as much for the Corvette as any other car (again look at the price of a Kooks G8 or Charger system. All the complaining over headers is kinda rediculous when that, and the fact that so much other Corvette stuff is marked up vs. what it costs for another car. My thing is...you can't load up on overpriced "trinkets" without complaining because they may only cost $200 (again realtive to what you get)..and then always pick on headers.
But again..it is all what is relative to you. I would put headers on my car long before I put something showy on it. But I also am in this Corvette thing for the performance aspect. I could do without the attention owning one brings.
As for material costs..I am not sure about that..it all depends on where stainless sits any given day.
But again..it is all what is relative to you. I would put headers on my car long before I put something showy on it. But I also am in this Corvette thing for the performance aspect. I could do without the attention owning one brings.
As for material costs..I am not sure about that..it all depends on where stainless sits any given day.
I agree with most of the things you said here...I also feel like $1500 for an axle-back is ridiculous, I'm not just condeming ARH, Kooks, etc...I would not purchase a $400 set of headers for my car that has 50K plus into it, but I did feel that this might be an opportunity to say "hey just because we are Corvette enthusiasts doesn't mean we should be overcharged for everything" I am in a business where my product gets shopped out on price everyday...granted, I am sure to keep myself and my staff to top notch service standards, and that helps.
Just as a quick side note, a lot of those $100-500 trinkets for the cars that you spoke about have more material cost that a set of headers.
Just as a quick side note, a lot of those $100-500 trinkets for the cars that you spoke about have more material cost that a set of headers.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: southern Ct
I posted this in another thread.
I'd like to welcome any Corvette owner located in our area, who's willing to drive to our facility, to tour our shop and see exactly how our systems are manufactured and to what extent we go too to produce an outstanding product. I'd also like to show you why we only use U.S. made materials and how easily corners can be cut to reduce manufacturing costs. Those on the fence about going the cheaper Chinese route can then make an honest accessment on whether or not it's worth it. Bring your camera's if you wish. We can easily put this debate to rest.
Nick
I'd like to welcome any Corvette owner located in our area, who's willing to drive to our facility, to tour our shop and see exactly how our systems are manufactured and to what extent we go too to produce an outstanding product. I'd also like to show you why we only use U.S. made materials and how easily corners can be cut to reduce manufacturing costs. Those on the fence about going the cheaper Chinese route can then make an honest accessment on whether or not it's worth it. Bring your camera's if you wish. We can easily put this debate to rest.
Nick
I appreciate your response and may just take you up on coming to see the facility.(not that I doubt you, but I am a gearhead, and think it would be very cool to come up, plus I live close by in Ct)..I wish you all the best in your business, everyone that I speak to about your product speaks very highly of!
Pro
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 588
Likes: 21
Very good thread and excellent points made on all sides. Just a few things that seem to have been missed
1. Why should it be the duty of the potential consumer to illustrate the quality of the knocksoffs?? That's absurd. If they are quality products made of quality materials than that should be proudly proclaimed, not left to the potentially unfortunate buyer.
2. Reputations cost BIG money to attain and nearly as much to maintain.
3. Notice how all the proponents of the knock off headers compare them with Kooks AR, LG, etc? Why? B/C the company cant and wont.
If you think you are getting a deal buying no name headers from a no name company and enjoy checking them constantly for issues than more power to you. Me? I paid $1100 for my Kooks and catless X from a well known forum vendor. I know I have a quality header and I have 2 stand up companies with quality reputations to go to should I have a problem. Who will you call when / if you have a problem? And for arguements sake based on reading prior threads I am near the low end as to income level of corvette owners.
Lastly, Im sure our vendors could bring their prices down a tad more if they didnt PAY MONEY so that we could have this wealth of information at our fingertips. For those considering buying the no name headers, I hope your employer doesnt take the same mindset as you.
1. Why should it be the duty of the potential consumer to illustrate the quality of the knocksoffs?? That's absurd. If they are quality products made of quality materials than that should be proudly proclaimed, not left to the potentially unfortunate buyer.
2. Reputations cost BIG money to attain and nearly as much to maintain.
3. Notice how all the proponents of the knock off headers compare them with Kooks AR, LG, etc? Why? B/C the company cant and wont.
If you think you are getting a deal buying no name headers from a no name company and enjoy checking them constantly for issues than more power to you. Me? I paid $1100 for my Kooks and catless X from a well known forum vendor. I know I have a quality header and I have 2 stand up companies with quality reputations to go to should I have a problem. Who will you call when / if you have a problem? And for arguements sake based on reading prior threads I am near the low end as to income level of corvette owners.
Lastly, Im sure our vendors could bring their prices down a tad more if they didnt PAY MONEY so that we could have this wealth of information at our fingertips. For those considering buying the no name headers, I hope your employer doesnt take the same mindset as you.
Last edited by GREENTAHOE; Feb 26, 2009 at 12:44 PM.
Racer
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 458
Likes: 4
We produce everything in house with US sourced materials in our Long Island Facility. If anyone would like a tour fill free to stop by and we will show you the entire production operations. I will enclose a picture just to get things started. The last thing is when you purchase our product and there is any need to speak to us after the sale you call 1 866 586 KOOK and we answer the phone and asst you try that with brand X. Remember forum members you are not just purchasing a peace of material you are buying everything that comes with it before the sale and after the sale.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: southern Ct
Very good thread and excellent points made on all sides. Just a few things that seem to have been missed
1. Why should it be the duty of the potential consumer to illustrate the quality of the knocksoffs?? That's absurd. If they are quality products made of quality materials than that should be proudly proclaimed, not left to the potentially unfortunate buyer.
2. Reputations cost BIG money to attain and nearly as much to maintain.
3. Notice how all the proponents of the knock off headers compare them with Kooks AR, LG, etc? Why? B/C the company cant and wont.
If you think you are getting a deal buying no name headers from a no name company and enjoy checking them constantly for issues than more power to you. Me? I paid $1100 for my Kooks and catless X from a well known forum vendor. I know I have a quality header and I have 2 stand up companies with quality reputations to go to should I have a problem. Who will you call when / if you have a problem? And for arguements sake based on reading prior threads I am near the low end as to income level of corvette owners.
Lastly, Im sure our vendors could bring their prices down a tad more if they didnt PAY MONEY so that we could have this wealth of information at our fingertips. For those considering buying the no name headers, I hope your employer doesnt take the same mindset as you.
1. Why should it be the duty of the potential consumer to illustrate the quality of the knocksoffs?? That's absurd. If they are quality products made of quality materials than that should be proudly proclaimed, not left to the potentially unfortunate buyer.
2. Reputations cost BIG money to attain and nearly as much to maintain.
3. Notice how all the proponents of the knock off headers compare them with Kooks AR, LG, etc? Why? B/C the company cant and wont.
If you think you are getting a deal buying no name headers from a no name company and enjoy checking them constantly for issues than more power to you. Me? I paid $1100 for my Kooks and catless X from a well known forum vendor. I know I have a quality header and I have 2 stand up companies with quality reputations to go to should I have a problem. Who will you call when / if you have a problem? And for arguements sake based on reading prior threads I am near the low end as to income level of corvette owners.
Lastly, Im sure our vendors could bring their prices down a tad more if they didnt PAY MONEY so that we could have this wealth of information at our fingertips. For those considering buying the no name headers, I hope your employer doesnt take the same mindset as you.
I have to agree with all of what you said, on both sides...The vendors are doing us a great service and it is much apprciated. I guess I still feel liek they should be active in trying to earn all of our business, rather than being sarcasting to potential customers in a debate.I would never buy a cheap, more importantly Chinese made product for my corvette. I have ever intension of buying ARH or KOOKS. I am pro America till the end(my DD is a jeep, and so is my wifes) I will not buy a foreign vehicle. My point simply in this thread was that I am still not sure that we as the consumer are getting the best deals we can on these great products...