Has anyone done this yet? My tunner has successfully tuned a factory 2008 Z51 MZ6 on E85. Said it feels like a lot of power was gained. We should have dyno results soon. Once I have the information I will update this thread.

PS - On factory fuel system and injectors!

 

 

He tuned it by "feel"?

Its been done. Not enough power for the loss in fuel economy and hassle of having to look for E85 stations every time you have to fuel up, IMHO. It does wonders on FI cars though.

 

First he just wanted to make sure that the injectors could handle the flow of E85. It burns faster so a higher duty cycle would be needed. Now we know it works so Dyno Tuning is next.

I agree with how you lose fuel economy however, gas for premium in Indy is almost 4$ a gallon. One nice thing is that E85 is 30 cent's cheaper than regular fuel... giving us a grand total of 50 cent's cheaper when compared to premium... I bet it's closer than you think (price vs fuel economy). If he does start to sell the tune it will more than likely rock a duel tune mode (one for gas and another for E85) which will more than likely get engaged by the traction control button or cruse control.

I know i'm jumping the gun so let's just see what the numbers turn out to be on the dyno.

 

Stock fuel injectors are not large enough for E85 and the engine will run lean under load and ruin the engine.

Douglas in Green Bay

 

The few times I have used E85 in my truck it went through the tank faster than a pizza disappears at a weightwatchers convention. After doing the math is was more expensive to use the E85. If you are doing it for more power thats fine but a tank of gas isn't going to last very long if the vette is like my truck.

 

Gotcha! Might be good for a weekend tune or something. Once we get some real world numbers we will go from their.

This guy is a amazing tuner and if anyone can make it work it's him. He only tunes Chevy's.

Check it out - http://trifectaperformance.com/default.aspx

Guy is a beast! He was the first tuner ever to crack the Camaro V6 ECU and the first to tune the new Chevy Cruze RS (list goes on and on).

 

It doesn't burn faster; it is simply partially oxidized (C2H6O) so because of that Oxygen molecule the stoichiometric ratio is much lower (more fuel, less air) than for Gasoline. That is why you need bigger injectors to run Ethanol based fuels.
Also, it has 28% less energy per volume. So you are saving 50 cents per gallon; 12.5%, but burning 28% more. Even if the tune was free, you're still losing money with every mile driven.

 

100% Ethanol has a stoich value of 9:1 or 9 parts air to 1 part ethanol.

So E85 stoich is: (.85 x 9) + (.15 x 14.7) = 9.855 or 67% of pure gasoline. So it takes 1/3 more E85 to achieve stoich than it does 100% gasoline.

 

Hi Sam.

91 octane is $3.69 here. E85 is $2.69. I guess prices vary.

While the Prius guy would care about fuel economy, I would think $2.69 for 105 octane is a bargain if you need it, it would be a bargain at $4.69/gallon too. If you factor in the alternative (meth) its likely a wash.

Here in the mid-west, E85 is everywhere. There are 7 stations within 20 miles of my house. Doing a road trip up to my friend's place in Casper Wyoming, it was at all the Western stations. I think it will be a flex fuel thing soon anyway. I'd be surprised to not see the C7 a flex fuel vehicle.

Some like the green thing too.

 

We have had very good luck with E85, making almost 500 hp on a stock Z06. At this power levels the fuel system was maxed out, E85 takes 30% so fuel mileage will suffer.

http://www.v8muscle.net/

 

That is not bad! 27% cheaper. But you still burn 28% more, so the money argument is still not valid; you are losing 67 cents per fillup and each fill up goes about 120 miles less distance per full tank. And I didn't say a word about money spent on injectors, fuel pump, and a retune, much less on HP Tuners so you can flash back and forth between a pump gas map and an E85 map. Not to mention your warranty is done if you do that to a stock car.

My point exactly: If you have a boosted car, it is a godsend. You can make race gas numbers on something that is easily available as long as you stick to the midwest (ZERO E85 stations in the North East). For a stock-ish car I think it is a waste given the cost of switching, the loss in fuel economy, and the hassle of having to look for it every time you fill up, while filling up more often. For me it is unthinkable. I would literally burn a full tank of fuel coming back home from the nearest gas station

As would I. As far as being "green", at the last SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) symposium I attended, the argument was made that it actually takes more than one gallon of petrol to produce a gallon of E85 (in farming, energy for distillation and transporting the final product). This depends a lot on the region but the way Ethanol is produced here in the USA is incredibly inefficient. Look at what South America does with Sugar Cane Ethanol; triple the yield and less than 1/3rd of the cost. Without government subsidies it sure as hell would not cost what it does now... That is a whole different discussion...
Again: it is THE way to go for an FI car, and a waste of money for a stock / bolt-ons ordeal. IMHO.

 

I will be pumping E85 through my LS2 this weekend. Only problem is that you can't tune like you tune with 93, aka, add timing, removed if knock is present. with e85 you can go past MBT without knock and the cylinder pressure skyrockets, then your rods try to find a way out. either load bearing dyno or a virtual dyno must be used. just some of the stuff ive been picking up the last month.

p.s. stock pump might work on a bone stock ls3 with upgraded injectors.

-Carl

 

That sounds like the american way.

 

The follow information is based on a tuner in Las Vegas that has experimented with E85 tuning on Corvettes. One of the problems we have had in Vegas, is that E85 is not always 85% ethynol. The ethynol content varies (quality control). Probably not a big deal if your vehicle is designed as a flex fuel vehicle. I assume the flex fuel vehicles have a sensor in the fuel tank that determines the percent of ethynol and the computer adjusts according. Because the percentage of ethynol is going to effect your ignition timing and fuel curves, the tune is only good for the percent of ethynol in your tank during the tune. If the next fill up of E85 is really E83, your car may start to ping due to a lower overall octane rating. If it is E87, then you may run lean. The potential to make a nice HP increase with less expensive fuel is very tempting. Just be careful running E85 in a vehicle that is not designated as flex fuel from the factory.

 

I get the gas milliage argument but theres things I dont get.

1. 500 hp on a stock Z06? What are the gains for just going to e85?
2. Dual tune activated by the TC or Cruise control?
3. Fuel system is maxed out at 500hp on a stock z using e85, then what do you need to take advantage of it on a modded car? Jumbo injectors?

 

1-about 15hp because the car wasnt optimized for 105 octane.
2-have no idea what is meant by that
3-the fuel pump and injectors have to flow about 30% more fuel to do the same job. Therefore, a pump's max supported HP is reduced by 30% as are the supported HP levels for a given fuel injector.

On FI cars, you use a parallel pump. I use a magnafuel pump that supports 2000hp on gas and thus about 1400hp on E85. Injectors for a typical 700rwhp car would need to be 96lb'ers instead of 65's. Parallel pumps activate by boost level or by RPM if you want. Using two Hobbs switches will make that reliable. I have an insanely bright LED on my gauge pod that tells me if my secondary fuel sytem is working. If I dont see it light at 4psi, I come out of it. Never happened.....

Using E85 is pretty close to what meth does minus the IAT cooling effect (spare me the E85 burns cooler thing; its not the same thing) Meth has an additional benefit if used on top of E95 and I see it first hand.

The biggest advantage to E85 is easier fuel maps. Meth always spikes rich and if you tune this out, the car would be dangerously lean if the meth system fails.

E70 is still 100 octane so guys thinking its inconsistent, so is gas. I worked at a gas station and was there when he told the guy to dump the 87 in the 93 tank. Dont tune on the edge. Winter mixes are coupled with way cooler IATs so the reduced octane isnt a detriment.

Anyone who looks at gas mileage as a deciding factor isnt concerned about max performance. I know guys who pay 7 bucks a gallon for race fuel 24/7 on their 900hp daily driver. If economy is your big hang up, E85 isnt for you. Its 105 octane race gas.

 

I agree not worrying about the inconsistency of E85. Today's gas can range from zero ethanol to 10% ethanol and you dont have to worry about that in your tune do you? Also, E85 is very forgiving about the AF ratio at WOT so you do not have to run it on the ragged edge to get max power. Almost all NA cars I have done show a 3% gain when going to E85, it has to do with the BTUs consumed with it compared to gasoline. Boosted applications are a whole different animal.

 

Alright guys he put the Bone stock vette on the dyno with E85 as the only mod. Results bellow.

Stock LS3 manual - 375whp (91 octane)
Stock LS3 manual w/ E85 - 420whp

A 45 WHP gain over low grade premium. Pretty good if you ask me.

Graphs are on the way!

 

here you go! again this is a STOCK LS3 manual on E85 before and after.