My E85 experience - BASE LS3 MNL
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2011
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From: Tampa FL (formerly Justinjor)
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St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13-'14
I was also thinking picking up a few barrels and filling it with E85 and keeping it at the house but I'm not sure if that's a)feasible, b) smart c) legal 
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2011
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From: Tampa FL (formerly Justinjor)
Tech Contributor
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13-'14
2-3%? I thought it would be a little higher than that honestly.
And ya, it might be "C" and I won't get in trouble till I get caught or my house explodes
And ya, it might be "C" and I won't get in trouble till I get caught or my house explodes
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Indy
It might be more.. lets do the math... A non bolt on LS3 with a 93 octane tune is around 390whp... My car bone stock with E85 tune put down 420whp... that's a floating 30whp from the tune only..
30 / 390 = 7.6%?
Seems a little on the high side however, i'm sure you could get 5%+ gain! pretty impressive!
30 / 390 = 7.6%?
Seems a little on the high side however, i'm sure you could get 5%+ gain! pretty impressive!
Last edited by LT1_E85_Corvette; Dec 14, 2011 at 02:23 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2011
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From: Tampa FL (formerly Justinjor)
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St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13-'14
Was your tune more aggressive to take advantage of the race fuel(more timing, etc)? Or was the tune just scaled for the change in stoich etc?
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
It might be more.. lets do the math... A non bolt on LS3 with a 93 octane tune is around 390whp... My car bone stock with E85 tune put down 420whp... that's a floating 30whp from the tune only..
30 / 390 = 7.6%?
Seems a little on the high side however, i'm sure you could get 5%+ gain! pretty impressive!
30 / 390 = 7.6%?
Seems a little on the high side however, i'm sure you could get 5%+ gain! pretty impressive!
How many miles per gallon do you get, and what's the cost per gallon.
I get about 22 average mpg so 1 gallon at $4 per costs me about $.18 per mile ($4.00 / 22 miles) using premium unleaded.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Indy
My tune actually is very conservative... I want to fine tune it more after I get my headers. We had more room to maybe squeeze 423-425whp out of it. I am expecting close to 450whp once I get the headers installed however, I don't want to set any expectations for anyone as I'm still on factory injectors.. and yes I am trying to do everything I can without upgrading them (I wont change my mind unless it just doesnt work). I'm at a 90% duty cycle now at WOT so I have plenty of room to move. I expect to be around 95% with headers
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: St. Louis MO
Ethanol has less energy in it per volume than gasoline. Nothing will ever change that.
You can be more efficient by upping compression or advancing timing to take advantage of the octane, but it will never overcome the difference in energy content of the two fluids. It's not even close.
"Ethanol is a dream and a dumb one" -Daniel Tosh. Yeah, we have a lot of land that can grow inedible corn, but all we are doing is employing a profession that should have ended a century ago. Ever drink a regular Coke or Pepsi and a throw-back or Mexican canned soda. Sugar tastes a million times better. We drink crappy soda because our government is run by lobbyists, not by anyone who is making decisions to benefit their constituents. Do you think the "Informant" was completely fiction? Nothing is completely fiction.
And in response to the last post. The amount of land it would take to create enough corn to fuel America's cars is larger than the surface area of the Unites States. So start tilling your yard and driving about a quarter as much as you do now and maybe we won't need oil anymore.
You can be more efficient by upping compression or advancing timing to take advantage of the octane, but it will never overcome the difference in energy content of the two fluids. It's not even close.
"Ethanol is a dream and a dumb one" -Daniel Tosh. Yeah, we have a lot of land that can grow inedible corn, but all we are doing is employing a profession that should have ended a century ago. Ever drink a regular Coke or Pepsi and a throw-back or Mexican canned soda. Sugar tastes a million times better. We drink crappy soda because our government is run by lobbyists, not by anyone who is making decisions to benefit their constituents. Do you think the "Informant" was completely fiction? Nothing is completely fiction.
And in response to the last post. The amount of land it would take to create enough corn to fuel America's cars is larger than the surface area of the Unites States. So start tilling your yard and driving about a quarter as much as you do now and maybe we won't need oil anymore.
Yours is a fools argument because Corn is probably the worst crop to use to make Ethanol land use wise.
Brazil uses sugar cane, but an even better solution is to use switch grass, which can be grown on marginal land ( land that cannot be used for farming ). Its ethanol yields are double any other crop and its dirt cheap to grow ( its bascially a weed ).
Could it power our current gasoline use? Heck no, but along with shale, electric and natural gas vehicles it could help us reduce or eliminate our use of foreign oil which would be a massive boost for our economy.
Brazil uses sugar cane, but an even better solution is to use switch grass, which can be grown on marginal land ( land that cannot be used for farming ). Its ethanol yields are double any other crop and its dirt cheap to grow ( its bascially a weed ).
Could it power our current gasoline use? Heck no, but along with shale, electric and natural gas vehicles it could help us reduce or eliminate our use of foreign oil which would be a massive boost for our economy.
Brazil uses sugar cane, and that is a fool's argument also because Brazil has been clear cutting rain forest to get the land for the sugar cane. Between the rain forest burn/cut, the poor quality of the rain forest soil, and the fertilizers/diesel needed to farm, it is a net loss for the environment.
Switchgrass = I'll believe it when I see it happening without government subsidies. Ethanol has been around for a while and it has not turned out to be any kind of boon except to the farmers and those who own the facilities (also the farmers).
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Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Indy
Sounds great...but how's the fuel mileage calc working for you? Is it more expensive for the greater amount of fuel you use?
How many miles per gallon do you get, and what's the cost per gallon.
I get about 22 average mpg so 1 gallon at $4 per costs me about $.18 per mile ($4.00 / 22 miles) using premium unleaded.
How many miles per gallon do you get, and what's the cost per gallon.
I get about 22 average mpg so 1 gallon at $4 per costs me about $.18 per mile ($4.00 / 22 miles) using premium unleaded.
Example:
My old average was 26MPG on pump 93
My new average on E85 is 16mpg (respectively)
On the highway I can average 22mph if I drive nicely.
Not to come off wrong but I didn't get his car for gas mileage
That being said it's still better than most trucs/SUV's and I'm running E85
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Indy
Yours is a fools argument because the corn lobby demands that fedgov keep the current ethanol production environment in-place because of agricultural subsidies.
Brazil uses sugar cane, and that is a fool's argument also because Brazil has been clear cutting rain forest to get the land for the sugar cane. Between the rain forest burn/cut, the poor quality of the rain forest soil, and the fertilizers/diesel needed to farm, it is a net loss for the environment.
Switchgrass = I'll believe it when I see it happening without government subsidies. Ethanol has been around for a while and it has not turned out to be any kind of boon except to the farmers and those who own the facilities (also the farmers).
Brazil uses sugar cane, and that is a fool's argument also because Brazil has been clear cutting rain forest to get the land for the sugar cane. Between the rain forest burn/cut, the poor quality of the rain forest soil, and the fertilizers/diesel needed to farm, it is a net loss for the environment.
Switchgrass = I'll believe it when I see it happening without government subsidies. Ethanol has been around for a while and it has not turned out to be any kind of boon except to the farmers and those who own the facilities (also the farmers).
Can we please keep this about the car? This thread is pretty old now and what's important is Performance. Thanks
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2011
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From: Tampa FL (formerly Justinjor)
Tech Contributor
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13-'14
90% duty cycle?? I was under the impression that another above 80-85 was pushing it-is that not the case? With my car right now, I'm at 494whp and 84% duty cycle at WOT.
If I were to switch to E85 I'd need injectors capable of 720hp at the crank or ~632whp assuming a 12% drivetrain loss and 30% additional flow requirement of the E85.
If I were to switch to E85 I'd need injectors capable of 720hp at the crank or ~632whp assuming a 12% drivetrain loss and 30% additional flow requirement of the E85.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Indy
90% duty cycle?? I was under the impression that another above 80-85 was pushing it-is that not the case? With my car right now, I'm at 494whp and 84% duty cycle at WOT.
If I were to switch to E85 I'd need injectors capable of 720hp at the crank or ~632whp assuming a 12% drivetrain loss and 30% additional flow requirement of the E85.
If I were to switch to E85 I'd need injectors capable of 720hp at the crank or ~632whp assuming a 12% drivetrain loss and 30% additional flow requirement of the E85.
If that number worries you then get yourself some injectors
My car will rarely see 95% because that only happens under WOT. E85 is a much cleaner fuel and is prone to be more reliable in the injector category due to less radical molecules because of the distilling process when being created.
On the flip side you will really enjoy the tune when you get it dialed in and I'm VERY excited to update the thread with my new findings on the headers. I hope I can put down Mild Cam numbers
Le Mans Master
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From: Tampa FL (formerly Justinjor)
Tech Contributor
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13-'14
I know I know.. i have talked about this many times. Everyone has their own impression about duty cycle.. I have been running my car on E85 for well over 6 months and logged over 10k miles with zero issues. I will be going north of 90+ with factory LS3 injectors to make my headers work with E85. That being said I have found many examples of LS7 Z06 cars using factory injectors (same as LS3 injectors) on bone stock E85 tunes and tuning all the way up to 100% duty cycles.
If that number worries you then get yourself some injectors
My car will rarely see 95% because that only happens under WOT. E85 is a much cleaner fuel and is prone to be more reliable in the injector category due to less radical molecules because of the distilling process when being created.
On the flip side you will really enjoy the tune when you get it dialed in and I'm VERY excited to update the thread with my new findings on the headers. I hope I can put down Mild Cam numbers
If that number worries you then get yourself some injectors
My car will rarely see 95% because that only happens under WOT. E85 is a much cleaner fuel and is prone to be more reliable in the injector category due to less radical molecules because of the distilling process when being created.
On the flip side you will really enjoy the tune when you get it dialed in and I'm VERY excited to update the thread with my new findings on the headers. I hope I can put down Mild Cam numbers
Outstanding
IF/when I switch to E85, I'll need injectors either was as I'm already a hair shy of 500whp--no way the stock injectors can support 642whp (494*1.3).Does the car sound/run any differently than it did on gas? I'm sure that's a stupid question because it probably feels the same, but I figured I'd ask anyway.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Indy
Outstanding IF/when I switch to E85, I'll need injectors either was as I'm already a hair shy of 500whp--no way the stock injectors can support 642whp (494*1.3).
Does the car sound/run any differently than it did on gas? I'm sure that's a stupid question because it probably feels the same, but I figured I'd ask anyway.
IF/when I switch to E85, I'll need injectors either was as I'm already a hair shy of 500whp--no way the stock injectors can support 642whp (494*1.3).Does the car sound/run any differently than it did on gas? I'm sure that's a stupid question because it probably feels the same, but I figured I'd ask anyway.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 515
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From: Boca ARton FL
Justin, you should call us and talk to Rob, he switched his Trail Blazer SS on to E85 last year and did the tune himself with HP tuners. I know he can switch back and forth at will if the E85 is in short supply. He gained 3 mph in the 1/4 mile, the stuff smell kinda like popcorn from the tail pipe. As far as driving cost it takes 30% more fuel to operate and it is 30% cheaper here ($3.9X premium & 2.9x for e85) sound like a wash. I doubt you'll need more fuel pump, maybe injectors (stock are 42lb from what I read but I am not 100% on that) but I know these cars have a lot of headroom, worse case would be a set of 60's and they are cheap and plentiful.
Le Mans Master
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From: Tampa FL (formerly Justinjor)
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St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13-'14
Thanks John. We only have 1 pump in this entire area so it's not feasible just yet. I was thinking of buying 2 50 gallon barrels and storing it at my house but I'm not sure that's even remotely legal, let alone possible.
I'm at 84% duty cycle at WOT so I'll definitely be needing injectors but am still uncertain about the pump.
I need to do a lot more research but I really like the idea of switching to the ethanol. I really want to put a flex fuel badge on my bumper and get a new plate that says "CORN FED"
I'm at 84% duty cycle at WOT so I'll definitely be needing injectors but am still uncertain about the pump.
I need to do a lot more research but I really like the idea of switching to the ethanol. I really want to put a flex fuel badge on my bumper and get a new plate that says "CORN FED"
Pro
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 515
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From: Boca ARton FL
Darin (my biz partner) used to drive to Lake City to get it, would take 4) 20 gallon barrels and get them filled. 50 gallon drums would be very heavy and you need either a lined drum or plastic as the fuel will absorb moisture fast and the water will cause havoc to the container. Another thing to consider is a fuel filter change, when you first start running the e85 it will clean your fuel system out and stuff the filter with all kinds of crap. Being that your car is newer you might have no worries but on that 20 year old Mustang, we ended up adding a 100 micron SS mesh filter before the pump. The final parts I need (5lb of steel wool) will be here tomorrow so hopefully we can tackle the exhaust and some heat shielding, then next week it's E85 and tune time...
Le Mans Master
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From: Tampa FL (formerly Justinjor)
Tech Contributor
St. Jude Donor '11-'12-'13-'14
Sweet John, thanks for the info. Keep me posted on how it does. 20 gallon barrels might be a little more convenient so I'll look into that. Where do you even buy stuff like that? I was hoping I could just call Chevron and have them put it on my gas card and deliver it to my house
Racer
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 420
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From: Greenville SC
tune for e 85
I believe this is a fairly popular thread and I would like to ask if the readers would post the timing changes they have made to thier stock high octane timing tables to max out torque and drivability. More specifically e85 has a high enough octane that timing can be advanced beyond peak torque and still not knock. At what rpm did you start adding timing and how much? Did you multiply the base table above a certain rpm using HP tuners? How about the part throttle timing ? Did you change stoic afr on the fuel table and leave the pe table for gas or did you switch to the pe table for etoh? Thanks for posting.