For what it's worth this is what I have on my LS3 dry sump, except I don't have the clean side separator (CSS). This was sketched by the Engineer at Elite, and they deal with crankcase ventilation as their specialty, not as a hobby. I cheaped out and omitted the CSS. The engineer said it would only come into play if one of the check valves fail. Supposedly this set up puts a vacuum on the crankcase in all circumstances, idle, cruise, acceleration, and Wide open throttle.
Without the CSS, there is no T by the oil tank and the green fresh filtered air line goes directly to the oil tank.

 

Quite the complicated setup. I just prefer to not allow any gasses or oil back into the intake. I've seen far too many oily and nasty intakes in the past. A simpler setup like mine with a line run to the exhaust for the venturi effect will keep some vacuum on the system. Since I posted yesterday, I have changed plans only slightly, but instead of buying new valve covers, I will just use two passenger OEM side valve covers on both banks to utilize the oil filler cap hole and use a cap with a 10AN fitting on both banks that way. With exhaust getting more velocity with boost and power, I'll have a ramped suction setup to pull more vacuum as I build more boost.

 

I also called Elite Engineering, left a message, but got no call back.

 

They don't answer their phone, send messages to: sales@eliteengineeringusa.com. And they will get back to you.

 

Let us know how your set up works, Do you have a graph or data showing how much vacuum is created by your exhaust Venturi at various RPMs? I'm sceptical it will pull much vacuum at lower RPMs, and a pressurized crankcase is never good, as gaskets will get blown out as well as your dip stick

 

Did you miss the picture I posted of my engine blown? lol. No way to get any usable data right now from my exhaust. I also stated a couple posts ago that I will measure and adjust if necessary, when it's all back together. You might also want to watch the videos I posted, a man added one exhaust venturi and documented its impact on crankcase pressure on a turbo'd LS, I'll spoil it, it helped by quite a bit. The test showed that with the venturi and at 13psi in the intake, the crankcase had less pressure then with the simple vented crankcase setup at cruising with no boost.

If it doesn't pull much at low rpm, that is perfectly fine with me as in that situation I am not going to have much blowby at all anyway. If you think I'm going to blow out a gasket at idle with 10AN breathers on both valve covers, then my engine builder failed me. Even if it pulls just slightly at idle and cruise, that is a bigger pressure differential than venting only. I also have the red Katech pump going on with better scavenging (evacuating more oil out of the sump to the oil tank which keeps the air volume in the engine sump larger), dry sump setup to begin with, and gas ported pistons for better ring seal (less blow by).

I am always surprised at how much faith people put into "engineers" opinions when that opinion is to sell them a product. I always put more weight to an unbiased opinion. And again, since I've been at this for over 20 years now, the number of disgusting intakes I have seen almost gives me nightmares. I would recommend you open yours and look sometime to make sure it is clean still. Even if it is, there are some nasty vapors going into your combustion chamber that were just combustion byproducts milliseconds prior.

 

It isn't supposed to be 'nasty' gas. It is an EGR effect and we need to discuss what is inside the gas I guess.

Many engines use EGR for decades and still do for different reasons, for example to reduce knock and improve economy.
Using EGR you may help control combustion temperature for safety.
EGR gas contains alot of, mostly water.


Difference between a mechanic and chemist. The mechanic thinks the vapors are 'nasty' and note the coloring covering the engine compartments like brown glass and understanding stops there. The chemist can understand more deeply what exactly the chemical components are and what type of reactions are taking place, then using mechanism they can ensure those molecules are dealt with properly.

The chemist first takes a conceptual approach to the molecules of hydrocarbon as they leave the ring and enter the crankcase as a high velocity gas. The chemist understands that in order to circulate into oil orifices the blow-by partially reacted products need to dissolve into engine oil first. The same thing can be said for deposits- the gas must dissolve into oil firstly in order to touch the engine metal surface because all crankcase surfaces are coated with oil film at all times.

Let us chemist examine contents of blow-by gas to find out what is dissolving into engine oil and what a chemist would do about it.
First, blow by gas, It is mostly water. Water has a high heat capacity making it useful to help control temperature change. Water may be used to help control EGT and combustion temperatures, it has a calming slowing influence on combustion. Water can be used to make gasoline engines safer on boost. All forced inducted engines need to control their peak combustion temp and EGT for safety and water is the most reliable controller non-toxic and affordable for the job.

-blow-by gas has a the primary constituent water which exerts a stabilizing helpful boost friendly influence on an engine at wide open throttle.

Next we notice the other major component is CO2, an inert gas. It is a harmless byproduct in a mass quantity negligible with respect to intake airflow mass for healthy engines.

Finally we have the carbon products of combustion. Assuming the air filter caught all the pollen, fungus, debris, etc... which is a whole other topic of cylinder destruction- the only other thing in the cylinder besides air and oil should be fuel source which generally contains at least one or two carbons. It is the longer chains of carbon such as gasoline and oil which produce the most partially reacted compounds due to their length. Ethanol and Methanol for example have such few carbons it is practically impossible to partially react and they generally act as cleaning agents scavenging for carbon residues during dissociation at high temperature. Initially a high velocity gas state, enough chain length of hydrocarbon can be unreacted hydrocarbons heated and intact or partially reacted hydroxy carbon compounds.
These are what produce the brown staining if enough of them dissolve and circulate into oil causing deposits and increased engine wear and clog orifices leading to catastrophic failure.
The chemist understands that these lightweight hydrocarbon products must be kept out of engine oil at all costs.
Therefore , the crankcase must be kept under full-time evacuation using an air pump to remove these products from the crankcase as fast as possible. The engine is an air pump, it is its own air pump. As fast as possible
He loves saying it.

The chemist understanding partial pressure of gas dissolution rate is based on pressure so he must maintain the pressure as low as feasible to prevent opportunistic dissolving gas molecules with high escape velocity into liquid component.
The chemist is also aware of chemical conversion rate fraction of hydrocarbon partially reacted substrates is based on particular engine conversion efficiency ratio- newer modern engines have better conversion rates. I.e. modern honda small efficient engines produce fewer unreacted hydrocarbon products per mass of blow-by gas and old small block chevrolet or even modern LS, and wear with physical and ignition components is also a factor influencing conversion efficiency to water and CO2.

Therefore, intuitively the chemist will be drawn to the understanding for a need to protect efficiency of conversion inside the combustion chamber, thereby producing more fully reacted products as much as possible. But he may not posses working knowledge of the ring-seal system on a piston. There is another breakdown now between between chemistry and engineering of a ring-seal for the piston.

Difference between a chemist and a engineer. The chemist understands what is being produced deeply and manages those products and wants to decrease the unwanted product in his chemical reaction. An engineer understands partly how the engine components themselves work to contain and manage blow-by products and the influence of dynamical conditions as gas and temperature and friction and so forth pertaining to mechanical transfer of energy, but may not be concerned with partial pressure of dissolved gas (actually if more of the gas is dissolving into engine oil the EPA measurement of crankcase gas on the engine with fresh oil will be reduced making this a tempting place to store blow-by products perhaps to pass EPA criterion for crankcase gas constituents during operation). We must keep in mind there may be a difference between the goals of a chemist working to appease the EPA and a chemist working to maintain their own property, their own engine for themselves which does not concern the EPA. Or maybe they also test the oil for dissolved gasses (of course they do) and take steps.

Although the chemist is interested in protecting the function of efficiently converting HC into H2O and CO2 with little byproduct, they may not have formal background in the processes which govern those reaction products. THe chemist may not understand everything there is about piston rings and what causes blow-by etc... The right engineer on the other hand is strictly kept to some guidelines of byproducts forming from combustion, as any unreacted product must be then fed into the cat converter at the right air fuel ratio and temperature, and they manage to keep from forming many blow-by unreacted products through decades of improvements in the design of the engine. Keeping the efficiency conversion high means keeping piston rings clear and free moving with clean engine oil at all times, unblemished spark plugs never touched by human hands with the right energy output, clean fuels/oils/etc... Crankcase pressure directly opposes ring sealing so the low pressure the chemist desires for partial pressure of dissolved gas reasons will favorably support the increased ring sealing and reduced blow-by affect that lowering crankcase pressure has together, chemist and engineer both came to the same point without knowing the other's reason. Clean fuel, clean air, clean plugs, clean oil, modern chamber, tight proper piston wall clearance at that moment, and you get a high efficiency conversion of fuel to fully reacted products. Thus PCV is a per-engine setup procedure. You must consider the particular engine's needs, to achieve target pressure and evacuation.

With low crankcase pressure and the modern ring seal does its job very well and few of those products ever makes it into the crankcase in the first place. This reduction of mass ejecting into the crankcase as blow-by makes it easier to pull a vacuum on the crankcase in a feedback loop where vacuum causes reduced blow-by and the reduced blow-by mass production helps increase vacuum until whatever energy supplied which is driving that vacuum is used up.

Ideally the engineer is a chemist. They conceptually concern with partially reacted gas products coalescing into pseudo streamline evacuation routes by supply of external pumping energy which clears those gas molecules before they can dissolve into engine oil producing the dark staining and eventual wear and failure of deposit forming.

I think part of the problem with pcv discussions is many people have no conceptualization for gas molecules. They do not feel the presence of hydrophobicity residues bent conformations exposing nucleophilic substrate etc... it doesn't paint a picture when you say blow-by gas. You know maybe i should paint a picture of blow-by then you can begin to understand what I See.

 

You know, your arrogance is really starting to bug me. I would have to imagine you might be the most socially awkward person in the United States. No that is not a compliment, because I feel I have to clarify that to you.
The fact you are saying EGR is a good thing just made me toss out all your advice. That is a purely disgusting design motivated by emissions. Let's bring that crap, like CO2, back into the combustion chamber taking up precious space that could be occupied by clean oxygen. Ummm, no. I delete that anytime I can, EGR can kiss my ***. And yes, I am well aware of the heat absorption from water, it's called water injection. And if that was the goal of the OEM's, to put water in the intake to absorb heat, they would have designed it that way, not recirculating exhaust gasses, period.

You link MeWagner, so I talk to them and they contradict you in so many places, then you back track. Before you said keep vacuum, no matter how, so I plan to use the exhaust and measure it when its assembled, yet that is now not good enough for you, it has to be the intake. I think you just like to argue and maybe someone hurt you as a child.

 

It's also very ironic to me that in the last video posted his oil is black as ****

 

You are not interpreting what I am saying the way it is meant. You are unable to grasp the point.

I never use EGR. I am not recommending EGR.
I am merely pointing out that EGR will calm the combustion chamber conditions and make the engine safer in boost applications. Similar to water injection, it has an energy reduction influence.
Which implies PCV blow-by gas is safe for the engine.
All manufacturer's use PCV and blow-by gas which is safe and mostly water is safely routed back into the engine on all engines in the world.

You said 'nasty' gas and it isn't nasty at all its mostly hot water and on clean healthy engines the gas is practically negligible.

The point: PCV blow-by gas is not 'nasty', it may even be beneficial if used correctly. I will always take advantage of the PCV gas in my setup for safety with forced induction aspects. It is like a free stream of water and combustion slowing compounds from a tube that increases during WOT when you want it to. Once you understand the chemistry and engineering behind the gas flow and it's useful beneficial properties you can ascend to the OEM PCV system design strategies comfortably in performance applications.

Spoken like a novice. These thoughts occur to you because you are power limited. In my world, there is no limit to power, so I don't care about harmless CO2 and harmless water entering my engine because I simply twist a dial on the boost controller if I want more power until the tires can't handle it anymore for whatever tires I choose. There is no worry about harmless inert CO2 as it is not crap it is merely a placeholder with negligible impact.

 

And continuing with the backhanded insults. Ok man, you with your 600hp boosted 5.3L and I made that power NA. My little Subaru would walk you too. Chemistry major or not, those gasses are disgusting, I don't care what you try and ineffectively articulate on the internet about it.
"I dont use EGR, but it has water in it, and water is guud, and blowby has some water in it, so blowby gasses guuuuud." Come on man

 

Also EGR: LOL wtf?!

 

It is not an insult to say you are power limited in thinking. It is merely an observation based on your unwillingness to accept CO2 is a harmless inert gas and that oxygen is a corrosive gas used to etch glass and it will attack your engine, but you say "blow-by gas is nasty and oxygen is clean" paraphrasing correct me if I am wrong here. Do you see how backwards your way of thinking is?

You claimed CO2 would take up space of oxygen and that it is nasty when in fact CO2 is much safer for the engine than oxygen (Much less nasty) and does not take up any space for oxygen because you should not be power limited in thinking.

You need to adjust your way of thinking to become educated in design strategy. You will have any power 5000hp 10000hp whatever because of planning. You are able to plan power on a piece of paper before you build the machine so the power is not a surprise. You may have 1200bhp or 900rwhp with factory 5.3L turbo engines for 200,000 miles 05-07 or 4.8L because you simply buy the correct size turbochargers so power is planned on paper. If you wanted 2000hp or 4000hp then you must plan a different block and different turbochargers. You get whatever power you want, no limitation this way. This is power unlimited thinking.

Now that you have power unlimited thinking, you can see that harmless inert CO2 gas and injected H2O liquid/gas is negligible. It will have no down side to the engine or the power. Scavenging it from below the pistons however has large benefits so the piston does not have to fight and try to compress crankcase gas and gas doesn't need to fight to get out of the ring pack. If blow-by has to fight and slow down inside the ring pack it forms deposits on the rings and puts tar like and diamond-like deposits all over everything. The blow-by needs to be sucked out of the rings with a vacuum to keep them clean and help them seal. I can't believe people are taking so long to understand how important it is to vacuum out the blow-by from the ring pack it just blows my mind.

 

Just like when it slows down in the intake in a larger diameter tube and creates deposits there and on the back of valves, pick your poison I guess. I'll sent it out the exhaust instead.

 

Curious if you will be running catalytic converters in your exhaust? If you are, is there any concern of fouling them with oil that doesn't get captured by the catch can?

 

Pick your poison indeed. Either pull the carbon out of the rings and onto your valves. Or, leave it there, on the rings and let is dissolve into oil and circulate and stick to the ring pack. It has no other options, either stay or go.

I'd much rather have it on the valves if I can't get it back into the cylinder completely, and out of the rings as much as I can pull out of the rings

It is easier to clean the valves and inspect valves than piston rings. Much easier to access the valves. The intake manifold comes off incredibly fast and easily for cleaning also. Maybe that is my simplest way of handing you the correct information in the most useful way, the carbon enters the ring pack and it will stay there and lead to bad things unless you vacuum it out quickly, and if that happens to be the back of valves then so be it, better you pull it out of the rings than anything else. The rings is the health of the engine. The rings are priority over everything else. They are the most important parts and seals on the engine because rings determine the fate, power and efficiency of combustion. And they are very difficult to just reach in and clean when you feel like it, so I recommend you take steps to keep them as clean as possible. Even if it means a little oil or carbon soot on the back of valves.

 

You are choosing to completely ignore my point. If the exhaust can create ample vacuum, which I will measure when its back together, then its neither on the rings or the valves.

 

No cats, no rear O2s, modded stock mufflers to be straight through. 1000 hp to the wheels does not play well with cats. Blower showed up this last weekend, Dart short block arriving by end of the month, and currently looking into what transmission and differential to go with.

 

OH no, I didn't ignore what you are doing. I've tried the exhaust pcv over 20 years ago on small block chevrolet engines and nissan turbo 4-cyl stuff. It doesn't always work well, mixed results. You will need to measure the crankcase pressure and adjust as needed. And address some concerns with exhaust at idle blowing back into the crankcase because the check valves do not seal perfectly because of the pulsing nature of exhaust flow at low speeds. It is a dirty method and does not work as well in practice as on paper. But people need to find out for themselves I know go ahead and try it and see and let us know, get data measurement and make sure you have a control for the measurement or its useless data. And you will have no idea if it works properly unless you measure it.

 

@mgrotel your #9 post has a setup very similar to my Honda's setup. I've deleted the intake manifold and air intake sides of the PCV. There is just an open breather for the valve cover. The EGR and PCV is deleted. There isn't positive vacuum on the VC, but the crankcase pressure can vent to atmosphere. I had to increase the size of the breather lines to the VC though, otherwise the pressure would be very high and the engine tended to puke too much vapor. The only difference is the bottom of my breather tank is draining back to the oil-pan to reduce the ability for the can to over-fill or run the sump low.

My engine is naturally aspirated, but high compression. I have not seen any downside to the lack of vacuum for this application, but on my boosted cars I'm looking at using exhaust venturi as an alternative to the intake manifold.