A8 Litigation
01-08-2019, 07:15 AM
#41
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Mar 2006
Location: Land of the free, home of the brave...
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Mmmmmmm.....
Not quite. GM made $63 billion dollars profit in 2018 (est.) The layoffs are a political stunt by insiders within GM to hurt Donald Trump politically in 2020. GM is pissed off at President Trump because of the Chinese trade war in which GM is pawn losing a small fortune as they had invested heavily in manufacturing in China. It's all politics.
But getting back to reality, this will be an interesting law suit if it ever gets to litigation and if it ever gets resolved in favor of the automobile owners. If there is a monetary settlement, after the lawyers get their fees, etc. it will mean pennies on the actual dollar cost for "loss of product value". The best (and most likely) outcome owners can hope for is extended warranty. Next would be a $3-5K voucher towards the purchase another GM vehicle. They'll never settle for "buy back", or provide owners with a new updated transmission.
Having worked in corporate America for over 5 decades I often think about a meeting I was in with a Product VP who told Chief General Counsel (head lawyer) at "X" corp "You have more lawyers in house and outside on retainer just to quash and hold up litigation, so don't think that I'm concerned about some ridiculous class action case".
But one can hope. Stay tuned...
Last edited by Crossed Flags Fan; 01-08-2019 at 07:30 AM.
01-08-2019, 07:38 AM
#42
Burning Brakes
As a 2016 A8 Corvette owner with the shudder problem I hope GM comes out with a REAL fix for the problem. The fluid flush was done a few months ago and it did not solve my problem.
01-08-2019, 07:45 AM
#43
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 1999
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Just a general question..
The 2014 A6 transmission was flawless..
Couldn't GM manufacture this and have dealers retrofit it in place of the defective A8's?
Or is it technically/physically not possible?
I would think just a tranny swap shouldn't be a big deal (again, if possible)
The 2014 A6 transmission was flawless..
Couldn't GM manufacture this and have dealers retrofit it in place of the defective A8's?
Or is it technically/physically not possible?
I would think just a tranny swap shouldn't be a big deal (again, if possible)
01-08-2019, 08:24 AM
#44
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2011
Location: Holly Springs NC
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St. Jude Donor '16-'17,'22,'24
Now THAT IS FUNNY! Next will be GM is part of the "deep state" and all.
But getting back to reality, this will be an interesting law suit if it ever gets to litigation and if it ever gets resolved in favor of the automobile owners. If there is a monetary settlement, after the lawyers get their fees, etc. it will mean pennies on the actual dollar cost for "loss of product value". The best (and most likely) outcome owners can hope for is extended warranty. Next would be a $3-5K voucher towards the purchase another GM vehicle. They'll never settle for "buy back", or provide owners with a new updated transmission.
Having worked in corporate America for over 5 decades I often think about a meeting I was in with a Product VP who told Chief General Counsel (head lawyer) at "X" corp "You have more lawyers in house and outside on retainer just to quash and hold up litigation, so don't think that I'm concerned about some ridiculous class action case".
But one can hope. Stay tuned...
But getting back to reality, this will be an interesting law suit if it ever gets to litigation and if it ever gets resolved in favor of the automobile owners. If there is a monetary settlement, after the lawyers get their fees, etc. it will mean pennies on the actual dollar cost for "loss of product value". The best (and most likely) outcome owners can hope for is extended warranty. Next would be a $3-5K voucher towards the purchase another GM vehicle. They'll never settle for "buy back", or provide owners with a new updated transmission.
Having worked in corporate America for over 5 decades I often think about a meeting I was in with a Product VP who told Chief General Counsel (head lawyer) at "X" corp "You have more lawyers in house and outside on retainer just to quash and hold up litigation, so don't think that I'm concerned about some ridiculous class action case".
But one can hope. Stay tuned...
I read much of the document and was not impressed. The lawyers who wrote it tried their best and they might get some points past a judge who can be swayed by sentiment, but it lacks facts. They imply a safety hazard referencing "safe" and "safety" and "NHTSA" in several instances within the document, but can cite no actual injuries or deaths to parties. The document cites individual complaints and this is it's strongest area. However, how will the lawyers handle the numbers when GM declares how many A8 transmissions are out there and how many are operating without complaint. That will damage the lawsuit substantially.
This might see a courtroom, but I doubt it. The embarrassment to GM is the factor the plaintiff lawyers are counting on to get their payday. I agree with Crossed Flags Fan, unfortunately, the folks who should get the most from this lawsuit, the actual plaintiffs, will probably get nothing more than some satisfaction that they beat up GM and maybe an extended warranty. But we shall see how it unfolds.
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01-08-2019, 09:01 AM
#45
With the multitude of attempted GM fixes I don't think GM is going to impress any court with how many are operating without complaint because the shuddering issues are a design flaw and not some random component failure. In some applications the Range module is pretty effective at suppressing the bad behavior of the 8L90 but with GM now introducing the third fluid in the 4 years this transmission has been in production along with numerous other claimed fixes (that werent') they clearly either don't have a handle on the issue or are trying to avoid the true cost of fixing the issue.
The 8L90 isn't resulting in accidents like the ignition switch incidents BUT it shows the same fumbling GM response (and persistent culture) in first ignoring problem reports followed by multiple failed half-*** attempts at solution that were well publicized and have not been forgotten. When you are coming out of a a major public screwup a wise company doesn't continue to shoot itself in the foot.
The 8L90 isn't resulting in accidents like the ignition switch incidents BUT it shows the same fumbling GM response (and persistent culture) in first ignoring problem reports followed by multiple failed half-*** attempts at solution that were well publicized and have not been forgotten. When you are coming out of a a major public screwup a wise company doesn't continue to shoot itself in the foot.
Last edited by NSC5; 01-08-2019 at 09:02 AM.
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Landru (01-08-2019)
01-08-2019, 09:03 AM
#46
Pro
I have been a lawyer for almost fifty years and a judge for nearly thirty years. I read the entire complaint. It appears to me to be extremely well prepared by attorneys who have done their homework. I have also researched the law firm which prepared the complaint. It seems to be quite competent and large enough to have sufficient resources to do battle with GM. I have been waiting for such a lawsuit since my 2015 Stingray began to shudder at about 15,000 miles and I came to realize that the transmission was defective. I have had the so-called "fixes", including having the torque converter replaced. Problems persist with the transmission in my car. I have refrained from repeatedly bringing it to the dealer (who has been most sympathetic and cooperative) because I have concluded that the problem is a design defect, for which GM has been unwilling to take responsibility. I am at last hopeful that GM will be forced to take responsibility for the defective transmission it sold me and so many others and either come up with a way to actually fix the transmission or compensate us for having sold us a vehicle with a defective transmission.
However, many of the issues are sourced at the demands by the DOT and EPA reguarding regulations, like a fuel efficient 8 speed transmission. The endless meddling by the federal government has become an oxymoron. Take what many call an average passenger car of today, it gets the same fuel mileage as cars of 25 years ago but the new car has thousands of dollars of new fuel technologies on it. How’s that work out. Here’s how, the car is a whole lot heavier due to a boatload of safety add on’s built into the cars as demanded by law. Talk about a dog chasing it’s own tail.
01-08-2019, 09:45 AM
#48
Drifting
Maybe we should all join forces, start crashing cars, stating that the car lurched itself and became uncontrolable. lol. Seriously tho, I have a 16 A8, been using the Range since new, still have the issues. They changed fluid, didn't do a thing. May carry it back for a new converter but read that will not help in the long run. Considering just trading out of it for something with better build quality. GM is a joke.
01-08-2019, 10:12 AM
#49
Race Director
Ok guys. Gonna share my thoughts with some real world fixes. Hope this helps educate some who are unfamiliar with how the trans tune can actually create and or FIX issues like the shudder.
my buddy owns Tune Time Peformance. He's a very capable tuner. He's been tuning since 2002. Opened his business in 06 and it has grown into a decent size performance shop with a good reputation.
that's the back story. Here's his explanation and fix (it should be noted that he himself, has owned several A8 vehicles including 2 Sierra Denalis, his 2016 Z06 and a 2016 CTS V, not to mention all the A8s he tunes in everything gm that comes in).
it took him a while to figure it out but he did. And proved it to me in his Z06 with the ORIGINAL fluid and TC. He did this by tuning out the AFM AND stopping what causes THE ACTUAL shudder IN The trans tune. And rest assured it is in the trans tune. I wouldn't openly put his proprietary fix in the post but if you want it fixed? Get in touch with him if you are willing to tune your car. A solution that some are not willing to do while under warranty and I get it. I have not had him do it to my car as I'm allowing GM to fix it (when or if) should I need to. I had the flush done and it appears to have lessened the effect I was experiencing. Time will tell.
ps. A little more understanding what an experienced and smart tuner he in particular is - when the 6 speed autos came out, he HIRED a gm trans engineer to fly in and teach him how it worked and how to tune the trans properly. It cost him a pretty penny but he knew it would pay for itself quickly and it did. The same type of guy that spent 80k on a awd mustang dyno back in the day instead of 30k on a lesser one knowing it was worth long term benefits and real world tuning capability vs a static roller.
if your tuner has the above pedigree? Great.. if not? Reach out to Matt at his shop if you are looking for help with this and aren't going to wait for fox or are out of warranty or for any other reason.
hope that helps explain it's NOT the converter or the trans or the fluid. Those GM fixes without tuning out afm and fixing the trans tune (just afm delete does not stop the issue causing the shudder) are treating symptoms not the problem.
my buddy owns Tune Time Peformance. He's a very capable tuner. He's been tuning since 2002. Opened his business in 06 and it has grown into a decent size performance shop with a good reputation.
that's the back story. Here's his explanation and fix (it should be noted that he himself, has owned several A8 vehicles including 2 Sierra Denalis, his 2016 Z06 and a 2016 CTS V, not to mention all the A8s he tunes in everything gm that comes in).
it took him a while to figure it out but he did. And proved it to me in his Z06 with the ORIGINAL fluid and TC. He did this by tuning out the AFM AND stopping what causes THE ACTUAL shudder IN The trans tune. And rest assured it is in the trans tune. I wouldn't openly put his proprietary fix in the post but if you want it fixed? Get in touch with him if you are willing to tune your car. A solution that some are not willing to do while under warranty and I get it. I have not had him do it to my car as I'm allowing GM to fix it (when or if) should I need to. I had the flush done and it appears to have lessened the effect I was experiencing. Time will tell.
ps. A little more understanding what an experienced and smart tuner he in particular is - when the 6 speed autos came out, he HIRED a gm trans engineer to fly in and teach him how it worked and how to tune the trans properly. It cost him a pretty penny but he knew it would pay for itself quickly and it did. The same type of guy that spent 80k on a awd mustang dyno back in the day instead of 30k on a lesser one knowing it was worth long term benefits and real world tuning capability vs a static roller.
if your tuner has the above pedigree? Great.. if not? Reach out to Matt at his shop if you are looking for help with this and aren't going to wait for fox or are out of warranty or for any other reason.
hope that helps explain it's NOT the converter or the trans or the fluid. Those GM fixes without tuning out afm and fixing the trans tune (just afm delete does not stop the issue causing the shudder) are treating symptoms not the problem.
01-08-2019, 10:17 AM
#50
Drifting
Ok guys. Gonna share my thoughts with some real world fixes. Hope this helps educate some who are unfamiliar with how the trans tune can actually create and or FIX issues like the shudder.
my buddy owns Tune Time Peformance. He's a very capable tuner. He's been tuning since 2002. Opened his business in 06 and it has grown into a decent size performance shop with a good reputation.
that's the back story. Here's his explanation and fix (it should be noted that he himself, has owned several A8 vehicles including 2 Sierra Denalis, his 2016 Z06 and a 2016 CTS V, not to mention all the A8s he tunes in everything gm that comes in).
it took him a while to figure it out but he did. And proved it to me in his Z06 with the ORIGINAL fluid and TC. He did this by tuning out the AFM AND stopping what causes THE ACTUAL shudder IN The trans tune. And rest assured it is in the trans tune. I wouldn't openly put his proprietary fix in the post but if you want it fixed? Get in touch with him if you are willing to tune your car. A solution that some are not willing to do while under warranty and I get it. I have not had him do it to my car as I'm allowing GM to fix it (when or if) should I need to. I had the flush done and it appears to have lessened the effect I was experiencing. Time will tell.
ps. A little more understanding what an experienced and smart tuner he in particular is - when the 6 speed autos came out, he HIRED a gm trans engineer to fly in and teach him how it worked and how to tune the trans properly. It cost him a pretty penny but he knew it would pay for itself quickly and it did. The same type of guy that spent 80k on a awd mustang dyno back in the day instead of 30k on a lesser one knowing it was worth long term benefits and real world tuning capability vs a static roller.
if your tuner has the above pedigree? Great.. if not? Reach out to Matt at his shop if you are looking for help with this and aren't going to wait for fox or are out of warranty or for any other reason.
hope that helps explain it's NOT the converter or the trans or the fluid. Those GM fixes without tuning out afm and fixing the trans tune (just afm delete does not stop the issue causing the shudder) are treating symptoms not the problem.
my buddy owns Tune Time Peformance. He's a very capable tuner. He's been tuning since 2002. Opened his business in 06 and it has grown into a decent size performance shop with a good reputation.
that's the back story. Here's his explanation and fix (it should be noted that he himself, has owned several A8 vehicles including 2 Sierra Denalis, his 2016 Z06 and a 2016 CTS V, not to mention all the A8s he tunes in everything gm that comes in).
it took him a while to figure it out but he did. And proved it to me in his Z06 with the ORIGINAL fluid and TC. He did this by tuning out the AFM AND stopping what causes THE ACTUAL shudder IN The trans tune. And rest assured it is in the trans tune. I wouldn't openly put his proprietary fix in the post but if you want it fixed? Get in touch with him if you are willing to tune your car. A solution that some are not willing to do while under warranty and I get it. I have not had him do it to my car as I'm allowing GM to fix it (when or if) should I need to. I had the flush done and it appears to have lessened the effect I was experiencing. Time will tell.
ps. A little more understanding what an experienced and smart tuner he in particular is - when the 6 speed autos came out, he HIRED a gm trans engineer to fly in and teach him how it worked and how to tune the trans properly. It cost him a pretty penny but he knew it would pay for itself quickly and it did. The same type of guy that spent 80k on a awd mustang dyno back in the day instead of 30k on a lesser one knowing it was worth long term benefits and real world tuning capability vs a static roller.
if your tuner has the above pedigree? Great.. if not? Reach out to Matt at his shop if you are looking for help with this and aren't going to wait for fox or are out of warranty or for any other reason.
hope that helps explain it's NOT the converter or the trans or the fluid. Those GM fixes without tuning out afm and fixing the trans tune (just afm delete does not stop the issue causing the shudder) are treating symptoms not the problem.
01-08-2019, 10:19 AM
#51
It is dated Dec 18, 2018. This suit must be the reason why GM recently posted notice in December that there is going to be a fix in the first quarter of 2019 for the A8.. They know they are in trouble as a result of this. They are going to pay through the nose making everyone whole when judgement is ruled against them. See, contrary to what naysayers will tell you, there is hope when people speak out.
01-08-2019, 11:02 AM
#52
gee dude. That's great about your buddy but your wall of text has no relation to the topic of this thread. It's about a pending lawsuit. You want to get into the mechanical issues of the shudder problem. There are many of other threads on this forum you could have posted your wall of text. Your post is off topic.
Last edited by MMD; 01-08-2019 at 12:05 PM.
01-08-2019, 11:16 AM
#53
Race Director
This goes viral it'll hit owners hard w/ resale, guaranteed. First one to hose owners will be Chevy's dealers.
Said it years ago what w/could happen re A8's issues if left unresolved. Shazam.
Why it was so important GM get in front of this long ago, looks like a case of couldn't now.
GM built a pickle and they know it, although one more card to be played in early '19.
Either way, settlement/functioning A8, the consumer will take it in the shorts.
Genuine shame, A8's really a great transmission...I/when/if it functions.
01-08-2019, 12:28 PM
#55
Melting Slicks
In Your last paragraph “ .... it's NOT the converter or the trans or the fluid. Those GM fixes without tuning out afm and fixing the trans tune (just afm delete does not stop the issue causing the shudder) ....”
are you saying the RANGE device is not an acceptable long term solution? You also referred to “...tuning out....and fixing the tune, please explain in some detail the differences.
Thanks
Mike
are you saying the RANGE device is not an acceptable long term solution? You also referred to “...tuning out....and fixing the tune, please explain in some detail the differences.
Thanks
Mike
01-08-2019, 12:58 PM
#56
01-08-2019, 01:04 PM
#57
Le Mans Master
Just a general question..
The 2014 A6 transmission was flawless..
Couldn't GM manufacture this and have dealers retrofit it in place of the defective A8's?
Or is it technically/physically not possible?
I would think just a tranny swap shouldn't be a big deal (again, if possible)
The 2014 A6 transmission was flawless..
Couldn't GM manufacture this and have dealers retrofit it in place of the defective A8's?
Or is it technically/physically not possible?
I would think just a tranny swap shouldn't be a big deal (again, if possible)
01-08-2019, 01:19 PM
#58
Race Director
gee dude. That's great about your buddy but your wall of text has no relation to the topic of this thread. It's about a pending lawsuit. You want to get into the mechanical issues of the shudder problem. There are many of other threads on this forum you could have posted your wall of text. Your post is off topic.
I don't have any problem with my A8, but rest assured if I did, I'd be very interested in contacting his friend to solve the issue immediately instead of sitting around waiting while the lawyers drag their heels in court...
01-08-2019, 01:19 PM
#59
Le Mans Master
With the multitude of attempted GM fixes I don't think GM is going to impress any court with how many are operating without complaint because the shuddering issues are a design flaw and not some random component failure. In some applications the Range module is pretty effective at suppressing the bad behavior of the 8L90 but with GM now introducing the third fluid in the 4 years this transmission has been in production along with numerous other claimed fixes (that werent') they clearly either don't have a handle on the issue or are trying to avoid the true cost of fixing the issue.
The 8L90 isn't resulting in accidents like the ignition switch incidents BUT it shows the same fumbling GM response (and persistent culture) in first ignoring problem reports followed by multiple failed half-*** attempts at solution that were well publicized and have not been forgotten. When you are coming out of a a major public screwup a wise company doesn't continue to shoot itself in the foot.
The 8L90 isn't resulting in accidents like the ignition switch incidents BUT it shows the same fumbling GM response (and persistent culture) in first ignoring problem reports followed by multiple failed half-*** attempts at solution that were well publicized and have not been forgotten. When you are coming out of a a major public screwup a wise company doesn't continue to shoot itself in the foot.
Then again, even if the plaintiffs win their case action suit against GM which at the very least would be years away A8 owners will receive pennies on the dollar with the majority of the money going to the law firm. The worst part if GM loses they will be able to shield themselves from paying out further warranty claims and possibly all warranty claims unless extended warranties are part of the settlement.
01-08-2019, 01:49 PM
#60
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Nov 2002
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These lawsuits are a joke and a payday only for the litigating lawyers. The C6 Z06 head issue suit is still not resolved and will go nowhere anyway. Even if it were resolved tomorrow we may be lucky enough to get a free oil change or a discount voucher on GM parts. Etc. GM is not going to fix the head issue, they are not going to fix the overheating issue and they are not going to fix A8 issue. It is the reason I will never buy another new one from them as they do not stand behind their product. Actually I don’t even believe they care. Long long after the head issues was discovered with the LS7 and their lying talking heads like Tadge all indicated 100% inspection of all heads etc, people have been still getting replacement heads from GM right off the shelf with the same issues. Law suit or not, they don’t care enough to do anything about it. Bottom line is they realize most of these cars don’t see very much mileage, and go off warranty with low mileage. Then it’s their problem.
A lot of people don’t spring for an expensive extended warranty. Some that have have had trouble collecting because of even non related mods done to the car. Buy an extended and still don’t put much mileage on it and you paid for nothing.Problem still exists.
There are now a lot of A8’s out there as they have outsold the manual cars I believe. It would be a very expensive proposition for them to jump up to the plate and start rebuilding or replacing all these trannies. What they will do is drag any law suit out for friggin years, then release a new, better, exciting , non obsolete new generation car and it takes everyone’s eye off the ball. Just like our politicians. They are very good at it.
So don’t expect much from any law suit if history is any indication. It’s all BS.
A lot of people don’t spring for an expensive extended warranty. Some that have have had trouble collecting because of even non related mods done to the car. Buy an extended and still don’t put much mileage on it and you paid for nothing.Problem still exists.
There are now a lot of A8’s out there as they have outsold the manual cars I believe. It would be a very expensive proposition for them to jump up to the plate and start rebuilding or replacing all these trannies. What they will do is drag any law suit out for friggin years, then release a new, better, exciting , non obsolete new generation car and it takes everyone’s eye off the ball. Just like our politicians. They are very good at it.
So don’t expect much from any law suit if history is any indication. It’s all BS.
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