Mega merge reviews C8Z and Vs everything
09-20-2022, 01:53 PM
#221
Race Director
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C8R would fare well at the same price point. Make it with an unrestricted engine, and let it eat. Lighter, stiffer, better tranny
You wouldn't want it on the street. Give me the extra cash from the pooch and I'll soon show you c8 tailights. Turbo and blower kits are out there
for 30k worth of mods you can bump to 900 hp and lots more torq on the base car. This will come soon enough for the c8 z06 as well as it's the same ecm architecture
or wait for gm to do it. It will still come in under the pooch price point. It's flattering but unrealistic to compare cars at such a wide price point gap
If the pooch isn't WAY better, it d@mn well should be!! 400k?? get real. Not exactly a bargain sports car like the vette folks want to compare it to.
I was hanging with the track rats and learning about the GT3s The gent was selling his with relatively few miles. He could get more for it, and with the CF brakes needing replacement, it was the smart thing to do.
I never thought of selling my vette as more cost effective than fixing the brakes! But then his brakes cost more than my vette!!
You wouldn't want it on the street. Give me the extra cash from the pooch and I'll soon show you c8 tailights. Turbo and blower kits are out there
for 30k worth of mods you can bump to 900 hp and lots more torq on the base car. This will come soon enough for the c8 z06 as well as it's the same ecm architecture
or wait for gm to do it. It will still come in under the pooch price point. It's flattering but unrealistic to compare cars at such a wide price point gap
If the pooch isn't WAY better, it d@mn well should be!! 400k?? get real. Not exactly a bargain sports car like the vette folks want to compare it to.
I was hanging with the track rats and learning about the GT3s The gent was selling his with relatively few miles. He could get more for it, and with the CF brakes needing replacement, it was the smart thing to do.
I never thought of selling my vette as more cost effective than fixing the brakes! But then his brakes cost more than my vette!!
09-20-2022, 02:02 PM
#222
Melting Slicks
The thing is that Chevrolet already did this experiment with the 5th Generation Camaro. When they built the Z/28 with the LS7. It was pretty much a street legal race car that you had to opt for a radio and A/C. Granted, different platform than the Corvette as well as a little different performance demographic. The end result was it was a total flop at the dealerships. So, I could see GM being a little gun shy on a race car package.
They could create an option package that could be special order. I think their concern with that would be the economy of scale in terms of production cost. There is a lot more to a race car than just aero and lighter seats. Now, I guess they could pull the Dodge thing. Dodge is offering the Challenger in a convertible by having your car shipped directly to Drop Top Customs in Fl for the conversion. I suppose that GM could offer a package through a third party like Pratt and Miller or Katech. Or, GM could take another tip from Dodge's Direct Connection, and offer track packages that would be dealer installed and covered under warranty.
But, at the end of the day, 90% of the people that buy these "special" cars like the GT3rs, or the Z06, or whatever 'track' variant, will never, and probably shouldn't ever try the baseline version of these cars at anywhere near its performance limit. These folks are just buying the badge to show and shine and will probably never see triple digit speeds. lol
They could create an option package that could be special order. I think their concern with that would be the economy of scale in terms of production cost. There is a lot more to a race car than just aero and lighter seats. Now, I guess they could pull the Dodge thing. Dodge is offering the Challenger in a convertible by having your car shipped directly to Drop Top Customs in Fl for the conversion. I suppose that GM could offer a package through a third party like Pratt and Miller or Katech. Or, GM could take another tip from Dodge's Direct Connection, and offer track packages that would be dealer installed and covered under warranty.
But, at the end of the day, 90% of the people that buy these "special" cars like the GT3rs, or the Z06, or whatever 'track' variant, will never, and probably shouldn't ever try the baseline version of these cars at anywhere near its performance limit. These folks are just buying the badge to show and shine and will probably never see triple digit speeds. lol
now it’s adored by boomer collectors that pretend it’s a fast car.
09-20-2022, 02:03 PM
#223
Turbo has thermal management that is pretty much in another league. You shouldnt look at these cars and draw conclusions about X horsepower, Y weight, Z radiator capacity. Flat 6 engine is a naturally balanced engine with no V8 second order harmonics to fix. It has a tiny crankshaft with extremely small counter weights. It runs very cold compared to the big V8 that makes lots of torque (which means lots of heat). Superchargers have to overcome the pulleys and belts. They are things that create lots of drag on the engine. They are big, heavy. Every little square centimeter of extra bulk means source of heat, something to cool off. The intercooler in the turbo is placed as such its extremely efficient from the air intake perspective (it shares the same air path as the intake). Packaging is very smartly done. Turbo doesnt need 13 heat exchangers. It makes it do with 4. All wheel drive makes sure you can put the power down so well, so you dont need more power than you actually need. Drag coefficient is also a big improvement. 911’s slick shape works very well with wind. Every area I highlighted is disadvantaged in the Z06. I wish it was as simple as making a low car, give it lots of torque, widen the front and rear track with wider tires and expect it to work flawlessly.
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09-20-2022, 02:47 PM
#224
Le Mans Master
^^^
100% correct.
The internet just LOVES to talk about what the car makers SHOULD DO. And then, when they (the car makers) DO what they are told (like the Camaro Z/28), the car EVERYONE wanted sits there and gathers dust.
If you just read this forum, you'd think half the Corvette owners track their cars. Tadge says it's 5% (and I think that is optimistic)
The world is littered with the bones of cars that the internet HAD TO HAVE (Viper for one)
100% correct.
The internet just LOVES to talk about what the car makers SHOULD DO. And then, when they (the car makers) DO what they are told (like the Camaro Z/28), the car EVERYONE wanted sits there and gathers dust.
If you just read this forum, you'd think half the Corvette owners track their cars. Tadge says it's 5% (and I think that is optimistic)
The world is littered with the bones of cars that the internet HAD TO HAVE (Viper for one)
This is what GM (and magazine racers) don't get. Not one of my Porsche GT owning friends gives an every living dog fart that a ZL1 or Z51 or even Z06 runs faster lightning lap time. Why? Because 4000lb cars on fat sticky tires with a massive engine running fast laps are not impressive, novel and most importantly, nearly as much enjoyable. There's this strange correlation that lap times = enjoyment. The fact that a car can plow through a turn and just drag race down the straights just isn't appealing to the road course crowd. And while Corvette guys may get all excited about magazine lap times at C&C or even winning HPDE events, GT guys don't care. That's not why they're there. They want a car that actually rotates in turns, is fun to drive and that serves as a good platform to improve driving skill. It's why they have a blast racing Spec Boxters and Spec Miatas.
That's why you can't just put monster engine, fat sticky tires, stuff suspension and solid bushings in a stripped 4000 lb car and expect it to be a massive hit. Also, I'm pretty sure the ZL1 outsold the GT3, GT3RS, and GT4 cars combined for a given generation. You're not going to sell 10,000 stripped down track variants.
And you see this mindset repeated here endlessly as people post lap times as some sort of authority about which car is better and say things like "with the cost difference, I could add a TT kit and it would only ever see my tail lights!" Great- congratulations for turning a road race into a boring drag race.
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09-20-2022, 03:13 PM
#225
Le Mans Master
^^^
100% correct.
The internet just LOVES to talk about what the car makers SHOULD DO. And then, when they (the car makers) DO what they are told (like the Camaro Z/28), the car EVERYONE wanted sits there and gathers dust.
If you just read this forum, you'd think half the Corvette owners track their cars. Tadge says it's 5% (and I think that is optimistic)
The world is littered with the bones of cars that the internet HAD TO HAVE (Viper for one)
100% correct.
The internet just LOVES to talk about what the car makers SHOULD DO. And then, when they (the car makers) DO what they are told (like the Camaro Z/28), the car EVERYONE wanted sits there and gathers dust.
If you just read this forum, you'd think half the Corvette owners track their cars. Tadge says it's 5% (and I think that is optimistic)
The world is littered with the bones of cars that the internet HAD TO HAVE (Viper for one)
Turbo has thermal management that is pretty much in another league. You shouldnt look at these cars and draw conclusions about X horsepower, Y weight, Z radiator capacity. Flat 6 engine is a naturally balanced engine with no V8 second order harmonics to fix. It has a tiny crankshaft with extremely small counter weights. It runs very cold compared to the big V8 that makes lots of torque (which means lots of heat). Superchargers have to overcome the pulleys and belts. They are things that create lots of drag on the engine. They are big, heavy. Every little square centimeter of extra bulk means source of heat, something to cool off. The intercooler in the turbo is placed as such its extremely efficient from the air intake perspective (it shares the same air path as the intake). Packaging is very smartly done. Turbo doesnt need 13 heat exchangers. It makes it do with 4. All wheel drive makes sure you can put the power down so well, so you dont need more power than you actually need. Drag coefficient is also a big improvement. 911’s slick shape works very well with wind. Every area I highlighted is disadvantaged in the Z06. I wish it was as simple as making a low car, give it lots of torque, widen the front and rear track with wider tires and expect it to work flawlessly.
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Pacembellum (09-20-2022)
09-20-2022, 03:19 PM
#226
Burning Brakes
09-20-2022, 03:36 PM
#227
Race Director
The problem with cars like a Z28 is that they just aren't track cars. You can't just put a no compromise track pack on a meh sports car and expect to lure in GT3RS cross shopping.
This is what GM (and magazine racers) don't get. Not one of my Porsche GT owning friends gives an every living dog fart that a ZL1 or Z51 or even Z06 runs faster lightning lap time. Why? Because 4000lb cars on fat sticky tires with a massive engine running fast laps are not impressive, novel and most importantly, nearly as much enjoyable. There's this strange correlation that lap times = enjoyment. The fact that a car can plow through a turn and just drag race down the straights just isn't appealing to the road course crowd. And while Corvette guys may get all excited about magazine lap times at C&C or even winning HPDE events, GT guys don't care. That's not why they're there. They want a car that actually rotates in turns, is fun to drive and that serves as a good platform to improve driving skill. It's why they have a blast racing Spec Boxters and Spec Miatas.
That's why you can't just put monster engine, fat sticky tires, stuff suspension and solid bushings in a stripped 4000 lb car and expect it to be a massive hit. Also, I'm pretty sure the ZL1 outsold the GT3, GT3RS, and GT4 cars combined for a given generation. You're not going to sell 10,000 stripped down track variants.
And you see this mindset repeated here endlessly as people post lap times as some sort of authority about which car is better and say things like "with the cost difference, I could add a TT kit and it would only ever see my tail lights!" Great- congratulations for turning a road race into a boring drag race.
This is what GM (and magazine racers) don't get. Not one of my Porsche GT owning friends gives an every living dog fart that a ZL1 or Z51 or even Z06 runs faster lightning lap time. Why? Because 4000lb cars on fat sticky tires with a massive engine running fast laps are not impressive, novel and most importantly, nearly as much enjoyable. There's this strange correlation that lap times = enjoyment. The fact that a car can plow through a turn and just drag race down the straights just isn't appealing to the road course crowd. And while Corvette guys may get all excited about magazine lap times at C&C or even winning HPDE events, GT guys don't care. That's not why they're there. They want a car that actually rotates in turns, is fun to drive and that serves as a good platform to improve driving skill. It's why they have a blast racing Spec Boxters and Spec Miatas.
That's why you can't just put monster engine, fat sticky tires, stuff suspension and solid bushings in a stripped 4000 lb car and expect it to be a massive hit. Also, I'm pretty sure the ZL1 outsold the GT3, GT3RS, and GT4 cars combined for a given generation. You're not going to sell 10,000 stripped down track variants.
And you see this mindset repeated here endlessly as people post lap times as some sort of authority about which car is better and say things like "with the cost difference, I could add a TT kit and it would only ever see my tail lights!" Great- congratulations for turning a road race into a boring drag race.
You should actually DRIVE a modern Corvette before making such an asinine and totally untrue statement.
I love how lap times only count when a Porsche is the fastest (Nurburgring). If any other car is faster, then it's a one lap wonder or too much HP (i.e. more than a Porsche).
I guess this theory explains how a 2016 C7 GS is a virtual dead heat with a 2016 GT3RS at Lightning Lap...despite the GS giving up 40 horsepower and weighing 290 pounds MORE than the GT3RS.
So much for the "drag race" theory
Last edited by jimmyb; 09-20-2022 at 03:53 PM.
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09-20-2022, 03:45 PM
#228
Le Mans Master
09-20-2022, 03:56 PM
#229
Race Director
^^^
Is that supposed to be "sarcastic"?
Based on your comment about "plow through turns", it would appear you haven't.
Is that supposed to be "sarcastic"?
Based on your comment about "plow through turns", it would appear you haven't.
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d16dcoe45 (10-07-2022)
09-20-2022, 03:58 PM
#230
Le Mans Master
the Z/28 was a flop because it was a 3850lb joke of a “race car” it had a cheap and extremely dated interior of a car designed many years before and still weighed WAY too much. The carbon ceramics were a “pretend it’s a race car” accoutrement and not what a real track car uses.
now it’s adored by boomer collectors that pretend it’s a fast car.
now it’s adored by boomer collectors that pretend it’s a fast car.
I appreciated the car for what it was, but I feel like they could’ve gotten more weight out of it somehow. Overall, I think the Z28 makes for a fantastic street car. I see a few around from time to time and wish I could have one. Just wish they would’ve done something different with the LS7 versus using ones from a surplus. I love the LS7, but I’m not going to convince myself pulling valve covers to check valves and sending oil off for analysis to conduct a CSI investigation on the results with the forum every oil change is normal.
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Pacembellum (09-20-2022)
09-20-2022, 04:06 PM
#231
Le Mans Master
You'd be hard pressed to to find a ~3500lb FE car with tires 50mm narrower up front that didn't understeer.
As far as the C8, I think it's pretty well documented that it understeers. I haven't tracked one of those.
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09-20-2022, 04:16 PM
#232
What inning is this and who's winning?
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09-20-2022, 04:20 PM
#233
Race Director
^^^
No one
Edit: I woke up on third and thought I hit a triple...
No one
Edit: I woke up on third and thought I hit a triple...
Last edited by jimmyb; 09-20-2022 at 04:46 PM.
09-20-2022, 04:39 PM
#234
I have owned three "late model" Corvettes (a C6 and two C7s), and I have a private track membership. I've tracked "late model" Corvettes plenty, along with everything from Miatas to Porsches to BMW to Ferrari. They understeer, and I'd probably categorize it as moderate even with stage 3 front splitter + 2 rear and wider (315) tires up front. Sure, I could drop the hammer on exit and induce oversteer, but that is very far from the car's natural tendency.
You'd be hard pressed to to find a ~3500lb FE car with tires 50mm narrower up front that didn't understeer.
As far as the C8, I think it's pretty well documented that it understeers. I haven't tracked one of those.
You'd be hard pressed to to find a ~3500lb FE car with tires 50mm narrower up front that didn't understeer.
As far as the C8, I think it's pretty well documented that it understeers. I haven't tracked one of those.
Yes it understeers, some of which can be dialed out with camber and toe-in adjustments. I never heard of putting 315s up front, that sounds wayyyy big.
09-20-2022, 05:39 PM
#235
Le Mans Master
I track my 458, which has 235s up front. Some day I'll get around to weighing it. Plenty fun and lively on the track, though not a track demon to be sure.
Yes it understeers, some of which can be dialed out with camber and toe-in adjustments. I never heard of putting 315s up front, that sounds wayyyy big.
Yes it understeers, some of which can be dialed out with camber and toe-in adjustments. I never heard of putting 315s up front, that sounds wayyyy big.
09-20-2022, 10:17 PM
#236
Supporting Vendor
Some one said that they could simply BOLT-ON a aftermarket C8 TWIN TURBO kit or C8 SUPERCHARGER SYSTEM and attain 900HP and massive torque and SHOW the POOOCH the C8 taillights. Bye Bye poooch.
Typical idiotic bench racing statement ………..the C8 twin turbo will explode on the outlap to the 3rd lap as it will detonate and overheat. Bench racing and drag racing it might win until it breaks once again.Drag racing takes zero skill and is simple.
What about this IMSA FIA race proven state of the art “upside down aircraft” for the street. Try one you will like it! Its brutally real fast and lasts. A IMSA GT3R CUP car for the street.
Made in Flatch Germany and likely be delivered next summer no games no excuses with a 6minute 40s Northcourse ring time.
Andreas Preuninger Porsche race boss GT cars- most complicated GT car ever. Porsche Uber Alles right pierre. Where’s my Z06? Meanwhile GT4RS is being built and will be delivered in 4th quarter 2022. Supply chain delay at Poooch ag advised me that no fancy LED headlights save me $850 .
Here’s a bad-*** Pooochh that will anilihate C8 Twin turbos with 1000hp running 92 octane pump fuel. Poooch 13.5:1 CR 92 octane no problem. My GT3RS will make over 580hp after im done too.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...lij4EzoZrqEyYe
Typical idiotic bench racing statement ………..the C8 twin turbo will explode on the outlap to the 3rd lap as it will detonate and overheat. Bench racing and drag racing it might win until it breaks once again.Drag racing takes zero skill and is simple.
What about this IMSA FIA race proven state of the art “upside down aircraft” for the street. Try one you will like it! Its brutally real fast and lasts. A IMSA GT3R CUP car for the street.
Made in Flatch Germany and likely be delivered next summer no games no excuses with a 6minute 40s Northcourse ring time.
Andreas Preuninger Porsche race boss GT cars- most complicated GT car ever. Porsche Uber Alles right pierre. Where’s my Z06? Meanwhile GT4RS is being built and will be delivered in 4th quarter 2022. Supply chain delay at Poooch ag advised me that no fancy LED headlights save me $850 .
Here’s a bad-*** Pooochh that will anilihate C8 Twin turbos with 1000hp running 92 octane pump fuel. Poooch 13.5:1 CR 92 octane no problem. My GT3RS will make over 580hp after im done too.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...lij4EzoZrqEyYe
Last edited by Joefab; 09-20-2022 at 10:31 PM.
09-20-2022, 10:40 PM
#237
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I have owned three "late model" Corvettes (a C6 and two C7s), and I have a private track membership. I've tracked "late model" Corvettes plenty, along with everything from Miatas to Porsches to BMW to Ferrari. They understeer, and I'd probably categorize it as moderate even with stage 3 front splitter + 2 rear and wider (315) tires up front. Sure, I could drop the hammer on exit and induce oversteer, but that is very far from the car's natural tendency.
You'd be hard pressed to to find a ~3500lb FE car with tires 50mm narrower up front that didn't understeer.
As far as the C8, I think it's pretty well documented that it understeers. I haven't tracked one of those.
You'd be hard pressed to to find a ~3500lb FE car with tires 50mm narrower up front that didn't understeer.
As far as the C8, I think it's pretty well documented that it understeers. I haven't tracked one of those.
09-20-2022, 11:04 PM
#238
Le Mans Master
the Z/28 was a flop because it was a 3850lb joke of a “race car” it had a cheap and extremely dated interior of a car designed many years before and still weighed WAY too much. The carbon ceramics were a “pretend it’s a race car” accoutrement and not what a real track car uses.
now it’s adored by boomer collectors that pretend it’s a fast car.
now it’s adored by boomer collectors that pretend it’s a fast car.
09-21-2022, 07:31 AM
#239
Banned Scam/Spammer
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Note that I did clarify that the Z/28 was a different platform and a different demographic. The point was that GM did a "street legal race car" (at the very least, marketed as such) and it was major fail. Not to say that a Corvette version might not experience the same fate, but I would highly doubt that the take rate on such a car would surpass the 2% mark.
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09-21-2022, 09:33 AM
#240
Le Mans Master
I know you had a C7GS, but I’m confused by your understeer statement. What was your suspension setup and alignment? You stated 50mm narrower fronts, but only ran a 20mm difference. Was that a typo or were you referencing stock? Of course ones driving style can induce understeer, do you have any videos to share by chance?
Stock definitely understeered a lot. Obviously, running wider fronts helped, but it still understeered.