C6Z06 vs Viper GTS
10-09-2012, 02:33 PM
#81
Safety Car
OK... since this post has obviously stirred some controversey. It appears this is in response to various people criticizing Dave68 over giving alot of advice regarding cars he has never owned or driven..... there is zero argument that he bases most of his advice on reading car magazines.
In this day and age we are priveledged to alot more information than we have ever been regarding anything from a car to a toaster. Online/magazine information is very helpful in getting an understanding of any vehicle from a mechanical/performance number standpoint.
With that being said I still dont think that anything in terms of research on a car beats a true hands on experience, if your going to talk in detail about how a car drives/handles I think that some seat time is a necessity. Not just a quick spin around the block either.... Im talking real hands on experience from a very spirited street drive to real world track time.
I could be a guy who has spent hundreds of hours wringing out different cars/motorcycles on a race track but I dont read alot of magazines or spend time on the internet. I would venture to say that I would be much more of an expert than a bench/magazine racer like Dave68.
The smoking reference is just absurd as its an apples to oranges comparison. Now if a doctor who was a non smoker tried to tell a patient who was a smoker who made the best tasting cigarette or cigar that would be a much better comparison.
In this day and age we are priveledged to alot more information than we have ever been regarding anything from a car to a toaster. Online/magazine information is very helpful in getting an understanding of any vehicle from a mechanical/performance number standpoint.
With that being said I still dont think that anything in terms of research on a car beats a true hands on experience, if your going to talk in detail about how a car drives/handles I think that some seat time is a necessity. Not just a quick spin around the block either.... Im talking real hands on experience from a very spirited street drive to real world track time.
I could be a guy who has spent hundreds of hours wringing out different cars/motorcycles on a race track but I dont read alot of magazines or spend time on the internet. I would venture to say that I would be much more of an expert than a bench/magazine racer like Dave68.
The smoking reference is just absurd as its an apples to oranges comparison. Now if a doctor who was a non smoker tried to tell a patient who was a smoker who made the best tasting cigarette or cigar that would be a much better comparison.
10-09-2012, 02:59 PM
#82
. I gave my example in my two prior posts, (you must have missed them), widebody being used on too many cars. If you want more specifics, too many parts being shared among different models of C6's. GS and Z06 in particular, many Z06 owners feel they are too similar, and would have bought either the GS or ZR1 instead of paying the premium they did for the Z06. I don't have time to sit here and list the shared parts between the GS and Z06.
I am far from alone in this opinion, head over to the C6 Z06 section, here are just a few examples from a thread about C6 Z06 owners expectations for the C7 Z06, (if produced) http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...ectations.html
Now granted, some of this anger is fueled by GM's lack of response to LS7 issues, but should show you some of the feeling of some C6 Z06 owners. "parts bin raiding" and "C6 got saturated" shows there are more than a few people who agree it's watered down.
C6Z to C7Z - expectations
I'm glad you asked.
My answer is: "More of the same".
Which is why I'll sit this one out.
1. New engine, with new engine problems showing up and giving a "hint" of future problems, early in the run, and then more problems in later years.
2. Parts bin raiding with no shame nor reservation, the C7 Z06 parts ending up on the base Corvette, in subsequent years, and all the way to possibly to making other Corvette "models" using C7 Z06 parts.
3. As a result of #2, yearly closure of the HP, and the early overall wide gap in initial performance, between the C7 Z06, and the first C7s.
Thus I will make it a &^$#@am *&^%^$#*g POINT to sit this one out.
Best of luck and best wishes to those who choose to tread ahead.
Just make sure that you go into C7 Z06 ownership with PLENTY of &^%$(&^ vaseline.
I'm glad you asked.
My answer is: "More of the same".
Which is why I'll sit this one out.
1. New engine, with new engine problems showing up and giving a "hint" of future problems, early in the run, and then more problems in later years.
2. Parts bin raiding with no shame nor reservation, the C7 Z06 parts ending up on the base Corvette, in subsequent years, and all the way to possibly to making other Corvette "models" using C7 Z06 parts.
3. As a result of #2, yearly closure of the HP, and the early overall wide gap in initial performance, between the C7 Z06, and the first C7s.
Thus I will make it a &^$#@am *&^%^$#*g POINT to sit this one out.
Best of luck and best wishes to those who choose to tread ahead.
Just make sure that you go into C7 Z06 ownership with PLENTY of &^%$(&^ vaseline.
I agree with what you have said. I am sure there will be plenty of customers for the C7 and there will be growing pains with this new vehicle as well. I wanted to think that GM post bankruptcy got its act together but recent recalls on other vehicles in its lineup as well as consistent quality problems with the C6 lead me to believe it will be more of the same. We can't lose sight of the fact that GM is a volume producer and we cannot and should not expect the level of quality and refinement during the design or build process that other higher end makes have. If you think otherwise you are fooling yourself. Its OK to be a fan boy but you have to temper that excitement with reality.
I'm thinking there won't even be a C7 ZO6. Going to obviously have the base C7 , probably ZR 1, maybe some kind of C7 extra option package like the GS. The C6 got to saturated , and as a few pointed out GM takes the cheap way out and just raids the parts bins and calls it a different version of the same basic car and charges a premium for it
10-09-2012, 09:22 PM
#84
Melting Slicks
I gave my example in my two prior posts, (you must have missed them), widebody being used on too many cars. If you want more specifics, too many parts being shared among different models of C6's. GS and Z06 in particular, many Z06 owners feel they are too similar, and would have bought either the GS or ZR1 instead of paying the premium they did for the Z06. I don't have time to sit here and list the shared parts between the GS and Z06.
I am far from alone in this opinion, head over to the C6 Z06 section, here are just a few examples from a thread about C6 Z06 owners expectations for the C7 Z06, (if produced) http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...ectations.html
Now granted, some of this anger is fueled by GM's lack of response to LS7 issues, but should show you some of the feeling of some C6 Z06 owners. "parts bin raiding" and "C6 got saturated" shows there are more than a few people who agree it's watered down.
I am far from alone in this opinion, head over to the C6 Z06 section, here are just a few examples from a thread about C6 Z06 owners expectations for the C7 Z06, (if produced) http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...ectations.html
Now granted, some of this anger is fueled by GM's lack of response to LS7 issues, but should show you some of the feeling of some C6 Z06 owners. "parts bin raiding" and "C6 got saturated" shows there are more than a few people who agree it's watered down.
10-09-2012, 10:00 PM
#85
Drifting
I too share a different view. Yes there may be more widebodies but I still check them all out, for hope that I see 10 spoke wheels and the guy hammers the throttle so I can hear it. Having ls3 widebodies does not make the z06/zr1 more common, as I swear some seem to imply. When I see a grand sport, even if I use the term bummed when I see one which I'm not, I'm not less excited to see a zr1. In fact you could argue the z06/zr1 are an even hotter sight to see due to the grandsport.
I'd also like to point out gm needed to produce replacement body panels for the z06 and people were doing widebody conversions since day 1. Gm saw a golden opportunity and customers got a fully factory prepared widebody, painted and ready to drive. And ever since, each z06 still makes 505hp and every zr1 still makes 638hp, just sayin.
I'd also like to point out gm needed to produce replacement body panels for the z06 and people were doing widebody conversions since day 1. Gm saw a golden opportunity and customers got a fully factory prepared widebody, painted and ready to drive. And ever since, each z06 still makes 505hp and every zr1 still makes 638hp, just sayin.
10-09-2012, 10:12 PM
#86
Melting Slicks
I'd also like to point out gm needed to produce replacement body panels for the z06 and people were doing widebody conversions since day 1. Gm saw a golden opportunity and customers got a fully factory prepared widebody, painted and ready to drive. And ever since, each z06 still makes 505hp and every zr1 still makes 638hp, just sayin.
10-10-2012, 02:14 PM
#87
Race Director
To MRV:
Let's say that Car & Driver tested both a 1997 Viper and a C6 Z06 and found the Z06 to be a bit faster. In fact, they tested the same generationsa few times over the years and always find the Z06 to be a bit faster. Nymere admitted this in his post. Does this mean the magazine guy is wrong or a false source of info? If someone asked you how fast a Bugatti Veyron is, would tell them that you have no idea, simply because you have never driven one?
I posted pricing info and yet Nytmere responded by tellling me that neighbor could've bought a brand new ZR1 in 2010 for $76,000. Really? Why do you think that I should accept that when it is beyond false? I'm trying to understand your reasoning, here.
If I walked up to a smoker and told him that the average price of a pack of cigarettes in CA is $XX dollars, should the smoker say that I can't possibly talk about cost since I don't smoke. Can I tell him how dangerous cigartte smoking is because my mother smoked for 50 years and died from it?
Let's say that Car & Driver tested both a 1997 Viper and a C6 Z06 and found the Z06 to be a bit faster. In fact, they tested the same generationsa few times over the years and always find the Z06 to be a bit faster. Nymere admitted this in his post. Does this mean the magazine guy is wrong or a false source of info? If someone asked you how fast a Bugatti Veyron is, would tell them that you have no idea, simply because you have never driven one?
I posted pricing info and yet Nytmere responded by tellling me that neighbor could've bought a brand new ZR1 in 2010 for $76,000. Really? Why do you think that I should accept that when it is beyond false? I'm trying to understand your reasoning, here.
If I walked up to a smoker and told him that the average price of a pack of cigarettes in CA is $XX dollars, should the smoker say that I can't possibly talk about cost since I don't smoke. Can I tell him how dangerous cigartte smoking is because my mother smoked for 50 years and died from it?
10-10-2012, 02:19 PM
#88
Melting Slicks
I dont think the gs watered down the line, In fact alot of vette guys, myself included hate the thought of the top not coming off the z06. Now this all said I now have a viper in my garage. 
and Im 100% sure the viper will not depreciate any where close to a Gs.
and Im 100% sure the viper will not depreciate any where close to a Gs.
10-10-2012, 05:42 PM
#89
Race Director
Of course, if you had this car in your garage, it wouldn't depreciate anywhere near what the Viper would.....
And it's a BMW. no less!
And it's a BMW. no less!
Last edited by Dave68; 10-10-2012 at 08:00 PM.
10-10-2012, 07:08 PM
#90
Safety Car
Not sure if I can voice my opinion here or not because I've never owned a C6z before. Although, I currently own a 99 C5 vert, 07 C6 coupe (bone stock), 96 Viper GTS (bone stock), and a mild 97 Viper GTS. I believe it all depends on what youre looking for. Celebrity status and pics being taking constantly? Viper hands down!!! Normal Joe? Corvette hands down! I just sold my 05 Viper SRT not because of this, but the average person thought it was just another Corvette. If you want attention and most kids dream car, a viper is the one. This is just my worthless 2 cents as I'm not a speed guru.... There's an old Acura integra smoking every thing in my town, so that proves any car can be made fast if that's your perspective.
10-10-2012, 07:22 PM
#91
When it comes to people I know with that have narrow body C6's who bought the widebody kits, they all have seriously modded cars that will outrun a ZR1 easily. With my experiences if they start modding the body they don't stop there, they turn them into monsters, and I have no problem with that, definitely more unique than the 4 GS I just passed on my way home.
Just an example, the ZR1 has the raised plexiglass hood (which I'm not a fan of, but I wont get started on that
). Now what if GM started putting those on every Z06 and GS out there, IMO it would water it down. Same general thought from my way of thinking.
10-10-2012, 08:02 PM
#92
Race Director
10-10-2012, 08:12 PM
#93
This thread has gotten so far off topic, doubt the OP really cares about his original question any more. I don't think many people who have replied even have any experience with either cars.
But to get back to the original question, the short answer is GTS's are fast, fast enough to beat a C6 Z06 if the Z's driver isn't on his game.
I think they were listed as upper 12's 1/4 mile, here is a video from earlier this year of a 97 GTS running a C6 Z06 (think the GTS was 12.7 or something), it's best was 12.3 with just exhaust and intake, with the track not in the best condition (sorry ****** camera phone). Show's you what drivers can do, not to bash on my buddy but he was just learning to drive his Z06 and didn't seem to want to let off the gas. Think the best the Z06 ran was 12.9.
You need some seat time in the GTS to run it well, just like the Z06. The only thing with the GTS is if you're not used to driving it, the pedals seem foreign and finding third gear can be a struggle (MGW is a simple fix). The owner of the GTS is an awesome guy with a number of toys, he admittedly struggled with running it in the 1/4. The 12.3 that night was run by Nick the owner of Straightline Performance who is a very good driver, but that was his first time ever running the Viper, he was pretty sure this lightly modded GTS could break into the 11's with some seat time, that's pretty damn good. Hate to say it but most Z06 drivers out there don't get into the 11's, sure you can run 11.4 or so with street tires if you have talent, but many Z drivers can't.
Here is another video of Doug from ECS running in the GTS (also his first time driving the Viper)... and he couldn't find 3rd gear... but that run was going to be pretty damn close to 12 flat.
So bottom line is yes they are fast, esp for a car that is getting near to 2 decades old!... They take well to simple bolt-ons, or F/I. Stock for stock with equal drivers it will be the Z06, but the GTS will be right there waiting for a mistake.
But to get back to the original question, the short answer is GTS's are fast, fast enough to beat a C6 Z06 if the Z's driver isn't on his game.
I think they were listed as upper 12's 1/4 mile, here is a video from earlier this year of a 97 GTS running a C6 Z06 (think the GTS was 12.7 or something), it's best was 12.3 with just exhaust and intake, with the track not in the best condition (sorry ****** camera phone). Show's you what drivers can do, not to bash on my buddy but he was just learning to drive his Z06 and didn't seem to want to let off the gas
. Think the best the Z06 ran was 12.9. You need some seat time in the GTS to run it well, just like the Z06. The only thing with the GTS is if you're not used to driving it, the pedals seem foreign and finding third gear can be a struggle (MGW is a simple fix). The owner of the GTS is an awesome guy with a number of toys, he admittedly struggled with running it in the 1/4. The 12.3 that night was run by Nick the owner of Straightline Performance who is a very good driver, but that was his first time ever running the Viper, he was pretty sure this lightly modded GTS could break into the 11's with some seat time, that's pretty damn good. Hate to say it but most Z06 drivers out there don't get into the 11's, sure you can run 11.4 or so with street tires if you have talent, but many Z drivers can't.
Here is another video of Doug from ECS running in the GTS (also his first time driving the Viper)... and he couldn't find 3rd gear
... but that run was going to be pretty damn close to 12 flat.So bottom line is yes they are fast, esp for a car that is getting near to 2 decades old!... They take well to simple bolt-ons, or F/I
. Stock for stock with equal drivers it will be the Z06, but the GTS will be right there waiting for a mistake.
Last edited by Witt748; 10-10-2012 at 08:52 PM.
10-11-2012, 08:49 AM
#94
Safety Car
To MRV:
Let's say that Car & Driver tested both a 1997 Viper and a C6 Z06 and found the Z06 to be a bit faster. In fact, they tested the same generationsa few times over the years and always find the Z06 to be a bit faster. Nymere admitted this in his post. Does this mean the magazine guy is wrong or a false source of info? If someone asked you how fast a Bugatti Veyron is, would tell them that you have no idea, simply because you have never driven one?
I posted pricing info and yet Nytmere responded by tellling me that neighbor could've bought a brand new ZR1 in 2010 for $76,000. Really? Why do you think that I should accept that when it is beyond false? I'm trying to understand your reasoning, here.
If I walked up to a smoker and told him that the average price of a pack of cigarettes in CA is $XX dollars, should the smoker say that I can't possibly talk about cost since I don't smoke. Can I tell him how dangerous cigartte smoking is because my mother smoked for 50 years and died from it?
Let's say that Car & Driver tested both a 1997 Viper and a C6 Z06 and found the Z06 to be a bit faster. In fact, they tested the same generationsa few times over the years and always find the Z06 to be a bit faster. Nymere admitted this in his post. Does this mean the magazine guy is wrong or a false source of info? If someone asked you how fast a Bugatti Veyron is, would tell them that you have no idea, simply because you have never driven one?
I posted pricing info and yet Nytmere responded by tellling me that neighbor could've bought a brand new ZR1 in 2010 for $76,000. Really? Why do you think that I should accept that when it is beyond false? I'm trying to understand your reasoning, here.
If I walked up to a smoker and told him that the average price of a pack of cigarettes in CA is $XX dollars, should the smoker say that I can't possibly talk about cost since I don't smoke. Can I tell him how dangerous cigartte smoking is because my mother smoked for 50 years and died from it?
The smoking comment is the same thing.... anyone knows (or can find out) what a pack of smokes cost or that they are bad for you. As a non smoker (which I am) I have no business telling a smoker what brand of cigarettes taste best as that is something only a smoker would know.... understand?????
10-11-2012, 10:11 AM
#95
Dave has always missed the point. You're wasting your breath. Dave is just an Internet knowitall we absolutely NO first hand knowledge of ANY of the cars he opine's on, just what he has read. He particularly never misses a thread with "Viper" in it, despite never having been in, driven or washed the rims on one. Along with every other car other than his old 18K relic.
If I was looking to buy a Viper, I would never get advice from someone who has owned several and tracked them.
I would ask Dave.
If I was looking to buy a Viper, I would never get advice from someone who has owned several and tracked them.
I would ask Dave.
Last edited by PDCjonny; 10-11-2012 at 10:13 AM.
10-11-2012, 11:25 AM
#96
Safety Car
10-11-2012, 07:01 PM
#97
Race Director
Dave.... I think your missing the entire point here. I do agree that magazines and internet research can tell you or anyone else alot about a car. But if a person is going to give thier opinion about the way a car truly drives/handles I think there is no substitute for real world seat time.... PERIOD!! Anyone can get 0-60, 1/4 mile, road holding/skid pad, fuel economy, noise levels etc.... from a magazine. What you cannot get are things like how the car fits you, ergonomics, engine sound, steering feel/input etc..... this stuff requires hands on seat time.
The smoking comment is the same thing.... anyone knows (or can find out) what a pack of smokes cost or that they are bad for you. As a non smoker (which I am) I have no business telling a smoker what brand of cigarettes taste best as that is something only a smoker would know.... understand?????
The smoking comment is the same thing.... anyone knows (or can find out) what a pack of smokes cost or that they are bad for you. As a non smoker (which I am) I have no business telling a smoker what brand of cigarettes taste best as that is something only a smoker would know.... understand?????
The OP was asking how fast a 97 Viper is. I didn't see anything that suggested he wanted to know about its ride quality, ergonomics, etc. It was a question about speed, so no, you don't have to own one to know how potentially fast it is, bone stock. Got that?
Last edited by Dave68; 10-11-2012 at 07:04 PM.
10-11-2012, 09:32 PM
#98
Le Mans Master
Dave.... I think your missing the entire point here. I do agree that magazines and internet research can tell you or anyone else alot about a car. But if a person is going to give thier opinion about the way a car truly drives/handles I think there is no substitute for real world seat time.... PERIOD!! Anyone can get 0-60, 1/4 mile, road holding/skid pad, fuel economy, noise levels etc.... from a magazine. What you cannot get are things like how the car fits you, ergonomics, engine sound, steering feel/input etc..... this stuff requires hands on seat time.
The smoking comment is the same thing.... anyone knows (or can find out) what a pack of smokes cost or that they are bad for you. As a non smoker (which I am) I have no business telling a smoker what brand of cigarettes taste best as that is something only a smoker would know.... understand?????
The smoking comment is the same thing.... anyone knows (or can find out) what a pack of smokes cost or that they are bad for you. As a non smoker (which I am) I have no business telling a smoker what brand of cigarettes taste best as that is something only a smoker would know.... understand?????
10-11-2012, 09:53 PM
#99
Drifting
Really? I think you said you were done with this thread 3 times now? I see many guilty parties here, but Dave's point was correct none the less. How fast a gts is on average vs a z06? Yup the internet is littered with FACTS about that scenario. As well as some other nonsense that you must shuffle through.
So are you going to say you're done with this totally off track thread once more and install a roll cage er... passenger grab handle that is, like you said the 2013 viper had? I mean really, if you were unsure, you could have asked PDCJonny first. He had the spec sheet from SRT on the 700hp viper months before it was released.
Oh wait...
So are you going to say you're done with this totally off track thread once more and install a roll cage er... passenger grab handle that is, like you said the 2013 viper had? I mean really, if you were unsure, you could have asked PDCJonny first. He had the spec sheet from SRT on the 700hp viper months before it was released.
Oh wait...
10-11-2012, 11:47 PM
#100
Racer
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Witt748 Your info is much appreciated as is NytmereZ and the rest.. My question was answered by you guys and I Thank you! Very informative and better than anything I could pick up at a magazine store. (The Viper GTS is a Fast car.. Fast enough to go head to head with alot of current muscle)
I really don't mind that the post is a little off topic.
It's okay.. It makes for good conversation. LOL
Everyone has an opinion, and it's perfectly fine for one to voice their experiances or feelings about certain cars. (It makes for great debates)
I can see how seat time is crucial in determining who would win over pretty much cars that have approx 500HP..
Sure, one little hesitation to a missed shift and how sheer talent can make a difference when your up against someone.
Witt748...I'd like to see those two races...Are those videos on you tube?
I really don't mind that the post is a little off topic.
It's okay.. It makes for good conversation. LOL
Everyone has an opinion, and it's perfectly fine for one to voice their experiances or feelings about certain cars. (It makes for great debates)
I can see how seat time is crucial in determining who would win over pretty much cars that have approx 500HP..
Sure, one little hesitation to a missed shift and how sheer talent can make a difference when your up against someone.
Witt748...I'd like to see those two races...Are those videos on you tube?