A starting point if nothing else. I often read postings which advise buyers to deduct for NOM but have only heard a few people suggest what may be considered a typical deduction. I also hear about how NOMs are losers when it comes to appreciation, a mystery how we arrive at this conclusion if nobody can say what the price difference usually is. For the OP, I guess we're suggesting it may be a $12K car if it's NOM? Seems low from what I've seen in the photos. Could be it's low for a 'numbers' car which may be suspicious.

 

'How much to deduct' varies from year to year and engine to engine. A '69 L88 is a bigger % than a '77 L48.

On this car, since don't know what it was originally and only what it's being presented as today, dunno. 10-15%.

 

Hi BB,
I think the reason you don't see a specific amount of $ deduction is because of a couple of reasons.
First, that actual figure could only be determined if you were comparing 2 otherwise IDENTICAL cars. Which NEVER happens.
Second, that figure depends on the particular car and engine. There's a very different value on a car with a base engine or a car with a high hp optional engine. And, the picture gets even more muddy if other performance options are part of the car. I'm thinking high hp big brake and big tank cars.
Thirdly, I believe the buyer comes into play too. For some buyers having the original motor is so important that they're willing to pay what ever it takes, even if that's more than any other buyer would pay for that car.
So, I believe the amount the original engine adds varies in EVERY case.
My 71 has it's original engine; that fact changes it's value, but not too much.
Thoughts?
Regards,
Alan

 

Amen. We can speculate and pontificate on possible values and askings prices, but at actual sale time, the human factor is involved.

Let's hope things turnout for the best for Rafalc.

 

Thanks for all the info and advice everyone. Just earlier today one of the forum members (PKguitar) showed me exactly where to look for the numbers on his 70...great car by the way.

Let's hope tomorrow works out for me.

 

Some semi random thoughts on the topic..

I agree, the number of permutations when we're talking about NOMs in general are too many and too varied to come up with a general rule. I've been asking for the NOMs which are either an original engine which has been decked or one which has had the block exchanged for another of same casting number and appropriate date codes. Pretty much the situation the OP may be faced with if the numbers aren't there. Some people only want the car if it has the original engine, nothing else will do, so they're out of the picture. Call it a premium price paid over a Corvette without the original engine if this is less offensive to some. Leaves the group of buyers who are more likely looking for a driver rather than an investment?

So far as comparing exact cars to arrive at a price estimate, we often do this on this forum. Closest you'll get to exact may be same year, configuration, and general condition. If the NOM is an original which has been decked or a 'correct' replacement, there's little difference between the cars other than the fact the block has been decked or isn't the one which the car left St Louis with. Other NOMs, restomods or some other non original engine, very much depends on the particular buyer. For those I agree, nothing to compare to.


I often read advice to new buyers to not pay the price for matching numbers if they're not there. A reasonable statment though it leaves a big question of what would be a typical deduction for a NOM. A mystery to me how nobody can tell us what NOMs sell for but quite often tell us they're very poor investments. How so if we don't know what they sell for? They may or may not be, no data to back up the statement. It seems nobody really tracks them. Tough to do since I rarely see a NOM for sale, let alone one which is 'correct', just not the original. There have been a few over the last few years which were pretty well raked over the coals. I'm not doubting there's a difference in price to start with. I doubt NOMs DON'T appreciate at all but don't know what the number may be. Beyond that it seems much would depend on condition. As these cars get older there are fewer out there in great condition, NOM or matching numbers.

For rare, high end, low production number versions I believe the discount would be deeper since the high price paid for the original block is driven by rarity as well as desireability. A seller will need a lot of documentation to back up the claim of originality since there are a lot of fakes out there, mainly high dollar cars.

A 10% deduction feels low, not based on any facts, more a gut feeling based on general reactions on this board. 20% - 30% seems like it would be more typical excluding high end or rare versions which will take a bigger hit. The higher the dollar value of the 'numbers' example, the higher the discount? (or going the other way, the higher the premium paid over a non original)

The ideal case would be when we have lots of sales data to refer to when we come up with prices typically paid cars with NOMs, otherwise correct. Without this it's a guess based on what we've been seeing lately. ALL Corvette prices are down right now, casualties of the economic crash. Best we can offer for a guide is a guess?

To be honest, if I were buying a Corvette today, I'm not sure 'matching numbers' would be high on my list of wants. Nice to have but not necessarily worth a huge mark up to me but that's only my opinion. I acknowledge for others it's #1 priority. To each their own.

BTW: $16K seems a bit low for a 'numbers matching' car in what appears to be good condition, at least based on the pictures. I'd definitely verify the numbers and look closely for any other reason the price may be starting on the low side.

 

Hi BB,
I did read your comments and agree with/understand your views.
I think we're headed to a point in time when we will no longer only ask... is this the actual engine this particular car left St. Louis with?... but will ask.... was this particular car, that appears to be an LT-! car now, an LT-! car when it left St.Louis?.
I think there will always be a few people interested in the first question but many will only ask the second.
Your Thoughts?
Regards,
Alan

 

My comment is how could someone know? 40 year old cars change hands so often that only rarely can the current owner even answer that question, even if asked. How can a current owner be reasonably required to say for sure. Only low owner, well documented cars that are not forged can an owner be anywhere near confident to the car's history.

As I have said, If you buy a car and find out it is not what you bought, who are you gonna sue? you can't prove or disprove anything.. it is all faith.

If one requires originality, then the biggest mistake today for a buyer is to only look at the stamp pad.

 

yup, 'the pad' is just one of dozens of things that need a close look.

 

If a buyer is looking for 'the real deal', given these cars are now 40+ years old, many changed hands many times, it seems it will become increasing harder to feel confident the block is the original iron. Strikes me what's more important is whether the car was ever built as advertised, left St Louis as an LT1, LS5, LS6, etc. Documentation will probably become as important if not more so than a matching stamp pad. There may be others who don't care, just want an LT1, LS5, what ever, for a driver and aren't concerned if it's a clone. The price would likely be much lower since a clone can be made up from parts. Done often in the muscle car market.

Now if Elvis or Jimmy Hoffa would just cough up the production records, things would be much simpler.

 

Well guys...I saw the car and there are a few things that I need to run by you....I have to make a decision very soon so any/all input will be great

1. My biggest concern is a clunking sound whenever you give it a good push on the gas pedal, either from a full stop or while moving if you let the car decelerate and then press the pedal rather hard. You hear 1 clunk and thats it. I think it could be the U-joints in the rear having some play?...any similar experiences? I hope its nothing with the diff...?

2. The very bottom of the transmission bell housing is cracked open (a little piece actually broke off on the lowest part) and you can actually see the wheel...just needs a replacement housing. I guess someone must have went over something too high for this car and cracked it open.

3. All vacuums work great but the wipers don't work. I was told they were working last time they were turned on (who knows when that was). Do the wipers themselves use the vacuum system or are they powered by an electrical motor? Wiper door opens and closes fine.

Everything else looks good and works good. Motor and tranny perform very well. Frame, birdcage and windshield posts look very good except for a small spot (about 2 inches by 2 inches) on the frame right in front of the rear wheel that was patched and welded). There is also a very small amount of rust visible on the radiator support in one small spot only. There is a very small oil leak after driving from around the oil pan drain plug area but very small.

I would like to see if some of you can chime in and give some personal experiences or thoughts on what I could be looking at with #1, #2(besides dirt getting in there through the crack, is there anything else I can expect to be affected)? and #3.

Thank you as usual

PS.
I am also looking for some help with towing/trailing the car about 200miles from Bradford County, PA to Norther NJ. If you are able to help please let me know and how much it would cost me....or if you can recommend anyone. I may need to do this Saturday morning September 17)

 

Could be a u-joint. May also be the cushion between the bracket on the front of the diff and frame is missing. It's a rubber block, could have dried and dropped out. Take a look at the front of the diff under the yoke where the driveshaft connects.

OK, ask for a break on price. Not my favorite job, pulling the transmission...

If the wiper door fully opens, check the switch on the firewall, located on the passenger side, to the right of the vacuum servo (looking from front to back). This switch prevents operation of the wipers until the door is fully open. Check the **** under the steering column, it's purpose is to disable the wiper motor for servicing the wipers. Maybe somebody turned it? Other possibilities are corroded connections, a problem with the relay under the console, maybe the motor. A rebuilt wiper motor, worst case, goes for about $150. I had an issue with mine where the motor wouldn't start until I gave the motor a light tap. Found the relay, part of the motor unit had cracked.

OK, the frame has had some rust issues. How are the #2 mounts? #3 and #4 mounts OK? Were both sides fixed or just one? I'd give the frame a rap with a hammer, listen for a ring instead of a thud.
How's the front cross member, the one holding up the radiator support?

 

Mounts were OK...old but OK.
Only the 1 side had a visible patch on the frame. I did go over the frame tapping it with the screwdriver...its solid. I couldnt get a real metal on metal "ding" sound because the frame has been painted but definitely no rotted through thud sounds.

btw...thanks for the quick reply

 

I forgot to mention...
when looking through the round openings in the frame i did see a few flakes...rusted flakes floating around inside of the frame. Could it be that the inside is/was rusted & flaking but with no signs from the outside & no "thud" sounds when tapped by a screwdriver? I guess if that's the case then you really never know what's in the frame unless you take the body off :-(

oh and the rear left was sitting almost an inch lower than the right rear...just a shock I guess? The car could use some suspension work all over anyway

 

I taught him everything I know. It took about 15 minutes.

Thanks for the compliment on my car! Of course, on the way to where I am today (I drove my 'vette), the amp gauge stopped working altogether (flopping back and forth to the max) AND the rearview mirror won't stay in place at all. The joys of driving a 41 year old car!

BTW, a standard shock, like not an air shock, does not hold up your car. If one side of the rear is significantly lower than the other, a standard shock will not cause this even if bad.

 

Numbers? No mention of all those numbers you were going to check.

 

I noticed the amp gauge in the car I saw was also staying ot the right of the zero...

BTW...if not the shock then what could be the cause?

 

This is the limit switch....make sure the button is fully depressed when the wiper door is open otherwise the wipers will not operate.

 

I did not mention them on purpose...to build up the suspense

I only checked the block, the motor and tranny and numbers indeed match. Had to rub the motor with laquer thinner and 6 qtips later, the numbers appeared.

Block date March 1970, tranny is na M21 close range. Had to rub off a whole bunch of dirt/grease off the tranny to see the numbers, if it wasnt for Paul showing me where they were I would have never found them....

 

Seller and I agreed on the price. I still have a couple of days to change my mind depending on what I hear from you guys especially about the rust flakes floating around on the inside of the frame and whether or not I can get a good deal on transport or truck/carrier rental.

Like someone mentioned earlier....the paint on the frame may be a warning signal and I lost about 4hrs of sleep last night thinking about it. Tapping it with a screwdriver...no problems visible...but the flakes on the inside make me a little worried (should I be?) Could the frame be rotting from thei nside and be solid outside???

Another thing is the rear left being about an inch lower than the right....as Paul mentioned, it wouldn't be because of the shock. If not shock then what? BTW...thsi is the 3rd vette Ive seen in the last 3 months thats leaning to the left...interesting...