Those numbers could be correct. What gives this one away the fastest is the 331 rear ratio. No such option. Even if it was dealer installed by Berger it would not be on the GM paperwork. There are many other errors but that was the most prominent in my opinion.

Also, the two lines for "positraction" below in the comfort and con section. Very similar error to the orange ZL1 tank sticker....makes you wonder.

 

They might. But much of what I'm showing they have already improved upon as I've seen newer versions and much has been "corrected". However, there is so much bad older paper out there that much of this info should be useful.

Also, not being that familiar with the mid years, I am aware that they have a really comprehensive book on trim tags out there for the C2s. Seeing as you have 67 in your handle let me ask you this. Do you feel the book has increased the flow of fake trim tags or slowed it down? I am sure some have improved there quality of fake tags but did they now reproduce all the unusual mistakes the factory made or are buyers still able to indentify the fakes?

I know there are memebrs on this forum that probably know more about paperwork than I do but are reluctant to say so simply because they don't want to feed the fake paper makers. But I don't know if that helps or hurts the buyer in attempting to determine what they are looking at.

I don't think they look at these threads as much as you would think. The reason is that they want to make a quick buck and the buyers of the paper don't seem to know any better. But what's worse is the buyers of the cars with bad paper know even less! The dealers don't know anything either! Some dealers have actually bought cars that I know are not what they think they are.

Also, I can not tell from a computer screen if a doc is real. I can only tell the obvious fakes, such as those posted. I can tell in person, or I should say, I can tell if it was printed on a 60s high speed printer or done another way.

NCRS has a verification service but you must be careful and understand what they are doing. They use the control numbers (Ident number and order number) and see if they match what they have in there shipper database. This is limited. This only confirms the numbers are correct, not if the paperwork is original. This can stop some fraud if the paperwork is completely made up. But if you have the original paperwork from, say, a small block and have the control numbers, then you can make new paperwork with the correct numbers and add any options you want.

I would be happy to give my opinion on any paperwork anyone has any questions about. Just post it up.

 

Here are some C3 web sites to check in with.. lots of coding and numbering data here:

C3 Corvette Land - http://corvettec3.ca/index.htm

Corvette Facts - http://www.vettefacts.com/C3/1969.aspx

Chevy Resource - http://chevyresource.org/corvette.html

The 73 Spot - http://www.73spot.com/ (in case you look at a 73 like mine)

69 Corvette specs (Roger's) - http://www.rogerscorvette.com/specs/69.htm

 

You got me on that 1
I looked at that and said 331?
Well I just don't know enough about these doc's to call it out.
Yeah no 331 ratio.
Thanks boy I need to pay more attention to details.
Marshal

 

Hi

Is a build sheet or order sheet supposed to be 100 % correct or can there be errors, like typing errors or whatever ? Those are hand-typed, aren't they ?

Rgds Günther

 

They were not hand typed. They were run on a high speed printer through a mainframe program. Orders were placed and the program created the build sheet. The computer mainframe program did not make spelling errors and could not make changes on its own. A computer does not make choices, it just does what its told (at least back then). Once the program was created for the 69 (or any) model year there would be no change unless they had to add a new option to the list for the computer to grab from. As for spelling, once in the system, it will always be the same. If something was spelled wrong once, it would be spelled wrong every time, until corrected. But in that case we would see that also. It wouldn't just happen once then go back again. The mistakes show up when humans get involved......

 

Hi Ed,
During 1969-1972 I was involved an a data processing system (Burroughs) producing multi-part bank statements.
If someone made a mistake with the date, (or something else), and it wasn't caught we could have 3000 pieces of trash pretty quickly.
We used to have 3 people look at the first one.
Regards,
Alan

Garbage in-Garbage out!

 

Hey Alan,
I was just thinking about that phrase because of all the talk about the old printers and systems!
That's an old programmers line. Haven't heard that in a long time.

Ed

 

Hi Ed,
I was data processing manager for a small group of banks in the initial switch to computerized book keeping systems.
I remember that when people would come to see it (and they did because no one had seen anything like it) there was a little magician's game we'd play where the computer would guess the number the person was thinking of.
I used to digitize the month's playmate and when printed she'd have perforations running through her middle instead of staples!
That's a long time ago in SO many ways!
Regards,
Alan

 

And it is so much more than paperwork that has been impacted by counterfeits. I chased down counterfeit products in China, India, UAR, Europe, you name it. We had a saying we used all the time. If you can make it, they can fake it.

First counterfeits were crude and unsophisticated. The more they learned the better then got. Later we caught counterfeiters that got greedy and produced the same thing in large quantities. That too has changed. With scanning technology and digital print technologies available today I would suggest only by making numerical or options errors will you be able to determine fake from authentic.

Counterfeiting is also prevalent in the automotive parts business today. Having worked closely with the GM, Ford, and Chrysler Brand Protection and Security groups, the after market parts business is not under their control any longer. I could share so many stories, and none would make you happy to hear, so let me leave that one alone for now.

Best advice I can give you is rebuild your own original parts first if you can (Alan did a great job with this). Buy donor parts from other cars if you cannot rebuild your own (I have done a lot of this). Only purchase after market parts if you have no other option available to you or you know the quality of the work being performed will fulfill your needs. Stick with the suppliers you know and trust. Watch out for good deals on eBay and other sources, they could well be fake.

Thank you for those that help to educate us all. It is much appreciated.

David Howard
AllC34Me

 

In fact, new technology can not match the original footprints and characteristics of the old machinery that created the original documents. New printers do use the same type ink and the process by which current technology prints does not leave behind the features found on the high speed printers. The forgers would need to know what to look for before they could correct it. And the new tech does not have the ability to compensate for it simply because of the nature of how it prints.

They can get close to the original look when seen on a computer screen or photograph, but in person, one look through a magnifier and you can spot the fakes immediately when you know what to look for.

Sincerely,
Ed

 

I agree Ed, with the key being knowing what to look for. We caught some fake printing because the half tones were missing in the duplication's and they tried to use four color process colors to mimic solid pigment inks. Good try but in the end we caught them. Now most critical documents have new embedded technologies, taggants, IR agents, and other tricks we won't talk about here, to determine the authenticity of the documents we are looking at. Different printing technologies are also now used in what we called mixed media; a combination of Offset Lithography, Flexography, Digital UV, and again, other fun stuff. No substitute for the trained eye, that's for sure.
Good stuff. Thank you.
David

 

Here is a good link about protect o plates:
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...t-o-plate.html

I didn't think that it was possible to replicate broach marks. But according to this link, it is:
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...estamping.html

 

Hi CC,
I believe one (maybe more) of the broaching machines is (are) now being used again.
Regards,
Alan

 

Two of the original machines are now being used. One operator is OK, the other is very, very good. Both have become better as what the pad surface is supposed to look like has become more defined.

There are several Addressograph machines also in use for reproducing Protecto-Plates. There are variations on each machine (kind of like a fingerprint), but can still be difficult to determine an original.

Trim tags are currently being reproduced for the C3 although not very well at this point. That will most likely change as prices on C3s go up.

I guarantee you that it is only a matter of time before someone puts an old mainframe/high speed printer back into use. If the money justifies it, someone will do it.

As David said, "If you can make it, they can fake it."

While I am all for the sharing of information on these cars, a public forum may not be the best place to present detailed information on what is or is not correct. I guarantee you it will be used to fine tune the fake paper we are currently seeing. If you want to see what can happen when financial opportunity and a lot of detailed knowledge is made available, just take a look at C2 trim tags. Initially, fakes were easy to spot, now... Let's say that some fakes have become very, very good.

Regards,

Stan Falenski

 

Hello Stan,
Let me ask what you think about this.
Has the C2 book concerning trim tags made it better or worse for the community as a whole? Did it help the forgers more or did it help the buyers indentify trim tags better? I am not in the C2 world enough to know what impact it had. But my point would be, is it better to inform the buyers, or is it better to keep everyone in the dark?
Its a dilemma.
But least for 69s, I have been keeping a paper trial on all the cars I see. So at least I'll know when certain cars "update" there new paperwork.

Maybe at some point we will see guys buy up the correct equipment, but it will be awhile. They would have to make a very serious commitment not to just getting all the equipment, which is considerable, but they will have to learn to program it, and still not make errors which they just can't seem to get straight. It takes talent in many areas. Its possible, but highly unlikely.

Also, much of what I'm saying, they have already figured out. I am pointing things out that you will see on the paper that's already been forged. Many of the mistakes are consistent amoung all the past paper they made. Of the few more accurate forgers, I can actually tell which forger made the copy.

One reason I feel they will probably never get them exact is this. My profession for the last 20 years was building and designing very high detail small scale replicas. I would advise to some degree the major model car companies, but I would do custom builds as well as produce short run kits in my shop out of resin for my own clients. And as hard as I would try, I would attempt to help some model companies to make accurate car shapes. It would make it easier for me of they did sonce I would have to correct it myself when being built for a customer. I would assist in getting all the research, explain the shape problems and they STILL would come out wrong. Same with the decal printers. i would go over it a dozen times and they would still screw it up. The point is, people don't listen.....or don't care....I don't think they will ever make paper to fool all of us. At the same time, I will never underestimate them. But I don't think they have what it takes.

Sincerely,
Ed

 

Ed,

I'm really not a C2 guy either, but I'm around those guys enough to know what is going on. As far as the tags go, I believe that there are a very small number of people that can detect fake tags with a high degree of accuracy. That number is lower than it used to be because the fake tags have become much, much better. At some point (when we finally get to meet face to face), I'll fill you in on what some of the current methods are to fake tags... You won't believe it. Having said all that, I believe that while some folks can still tell the difference, most aren't able to pick out the really good counterfeit tags.

You hit on the really important area that makes it difficult for someone to perfectly counterfeit paperwork... Knowledge acquired over a long period of time looking at probably thousands of documents. The paper that you have seen years ago is much more valuable than what you are seeing today because back then, nobody was recreating the C3 paperwork... There was no money it. So information that you collected back then is relatively bulletproof as far as authenticity. This is the reason why a car may show up with paperwork that on it face, looks pretty good, but through acquired knowledge, falls apart. You've seen it with the 1969 Corvettes that you've observed and I'm sure David sees (saw) it in his line of work tracking counterfeit parts. Time is the one area where the people faking paper, parts, tags, etc. are at a huge disadvantage... And that lack of experience/knowledge over time is usually what trips them up.

I realize that Ed, and please don't feel that my comments were directed solely at you. I know that you're trying to help the average Joe looking for a Corvette by keeping them from making a mistake based on potential paper evidence. I'm in agreement completely. I'm simply concerned that more important/detailed information starts to make its way into the general public and allow the counterfeiters to gain knowledge without having to invest the time to do so. Again, I'm with you on making people more aware of what is going on with regard to fake anything on these cars... I just don't want to give the guys counterfeiting them any help.

Really interesting line of work Ed... Something else I'd love to talk to you about. Definitely going to have to meet at some point in time!

Regards,

Stan

 

Its a pretty disappointing aspect of the hobby. For those like myself that just want a genuine numbers matching car and genuine factory documentation, i just think that stuff is cool.

I remember learning about the term "numbers matching" and that indicates that the car was original. Following that i learned about "factory documentation" to help prove the car and its options are original to the car. Now i know that "factory documentation is more than likely forged and the "numbers matching" on the cars too being re stamps. I still thought their was hope with broach marks, but from what i have been learning, that seems to be able to be forged as well.

 

Chevy corvette,
I won't waste time rehashing other fields of fakery.
It's been covered excellently by others in this thread.
I saw the same stuff in the military collectibles field as well. Where there's a buck to me made some bottom feeder will exploit it.
I always feel you need to enter the arena equipped or be eaten by the lions.
Marshal

 

The following is not a political statement at all. It is a quote from the late President Ronald Reagan. When meeting with Suzanne Massie, a writer in Russia, he was taught that Russians like to speak in proverbs. She suggested and he liked "Doveryai no proveryai" which translates to "Trust but Verify".

It is, was, will always be, the motto upon which I handle information today.

And my favorite quotation is:
"Integrity is one of several paths; it distinguishes itself from the others because it is the right path and the only one on which you will never get lost." M.H. McKee

Good luck with your verification process and let me know if I can help in any way.

Merry Christmas.

David Howard