FWIW, I read where the metal universal joint is not really a good idea.

It doesn't give very much whereas the rag joint flexes with the movement and twisting of the car.

In a street car the rag joint might be better than in a specialty vehicle.

I don't know, just speculation.

 

I decided to give it a "whack" this evening and see what happened.

I used my 2 lb brass hammer. No need to use a wood block as the brass is softer than the steel column.

I gave it two love taps and nothing happened. On the third I upped it to a solid whack and it instantly broke free.

I gave it a slight tap to make sure and it moved easily.

 

I would challenge anyone that they can feel the difference between a u joint and a rag joint in the borgeson conversion. I used the universal joint and it feels fine and my buddy used the rag. I don't notice any vibrations or other steering problems in either one. Love my borgeson conversion. No more oil leaks. Can drive down the road at any speed with 1 finger on the wheel. Steering is very responsive.

 

I got tired of replacing/rebuilding the PS cylinder every 2 years, and went with the Borgeson about 3 years ago on my '76. Absolutely no problems!

Jim Shea:

Is there an absolute limit that the stock steering will collapse? In other words, will shorting the shaft by 2" allow the steering wheel to intrude an additional 2" into the cockpit, or is there a mechanical stop to limit the intrusion? Some here seem to be concerned about this. I myself don't know the answer, and don't care, but looking for expert opinion.

Thanks,

 

I am about to pull the trigger on purchasing and installing the Borgeson system into my 77.

Based on your comments above I think will stick with the rag joint that comes with the kit.

If the rag joint proves to be a problem or tears as indicated previously in this thread then i will replace it with a u joint at that time.

The information provided on this forum is outstanding!

 

I've been asking since I installed mine 5 years ago for someone, anyone to produce some visual objective evidence that a borgeson rag joint torn or otherwise failed. None has surfaced to date. Based on this and my own experience I think this is just unfounded .

 

What type of difference does the quicker steering ratio make driving the car? I have manual steering and need a new/rebuilt box, but am not sure I want to spend the additional money for the Borgeson conversion. I don't mind dealing with the parking lot struggles of manual steering. I just want to enjoy some spirited cruising in the car.
Thanks

 

I had manual steering for about 40 years in my '69. Decided that at my age power steering was an upgrade I could use. I'm going from memory here, I think the stock non-power ratio is 16:1. The Borgeson ratio (with the tie rods in the quick position) is 12.7:1. A significant difference. About 2.5 turns lock to lock.
I bought a smaller diameter, thicker rim steering wheel that is similar to the stock wheel to complement the easier steering.
If you go Borgeson, you won't regret it

Pete

 

With all due respect, Paul, the engineers did know what they were doing. The problem back during the C2-C3 era was the financial people, bean counters as they were sometimes called. By the late sixties all GM vehicle lines except Corvette had integral power steering systems. That is, the control valve and ram functions combined into the steering box.

Ever look at a late sixties Camaro p/s box? They are enormous! No way one would fit in a Corvette. GM didn't have a suitably small integral p/s box and wasn't willing to invest in design and tooling to build one.

Decades later as vehicles downsized, Saginaw made one for smaller Jeeps. Saginaw became Delphi, which is what the Borgeson box is. They modified the box with a different mount plate to fit our Corvettes. Yes, you loose about 2" of collapse out of about 8", not a lot, but surely significant for some owners. Fair enough.

Bottom line: Borgeson is selling the p/s box the General SHOULD have made for the C2 and C3.


Pete

 

Got my box in. And WOW....I mean, WOW what a difference.

This is one of those improvements that is so drastic, so noticeable, so easy and cost effective to make it boggles the mind. This is how every C3 should have come from the factory.

I went with Mr Green's (why do I always chuckle and think of Reservoir Dogs when I type that????) suggestion of the Borgeson. I'll give you my experience and to add to Mr Green.

I bought it from Mud Flaps because it was the best price I could find. Ordered it online on Monday, got it on Friday afternoon.



I paid 658 and that included shipping. Box weights 33 lbs to ship.

Came in extremely well wrapped. Looks like Mud Flaps drop shipped this.


New hoses are very robust, more on them later.



Removing the old stuff was pretty straight forward. The three 9/16's nuts on the box, loosen the rag joint, pop the pitman arm and pull the old box.

I did not take off my master cylinder as I had room to take out the box easily. Have to kind of maneuver it a little bit, but not bad.

Take the hoses off the valve and power steering pump. Remove the plunger end nut and pop the ball joint with a pickle fork. I took it off with hoses attached. I also took off the bracket on the frame for the plunger. 4 nuts hold it, with U bolts. You have to dig these out of the hole in the frame.

Loosen the lock nut on the valve, unscrew it and the old stuff is out.

Everything says you have to collapse the steering column 2 1/2 inches. I do believe mine is collapsed more like 3 1/2, and I probably could have gone another 1/4 inch.



I fit the B Box into position what seemed like at least 50 times to get this right. It is a bit of a PITA to do this, but I wanted to make it as tight a fit as possible.

I have a vent on my valve cover I had to remove, otherwise the new box will go in easily if you are careful. I found it better to place my arm under the alternater to support the front of the box.



I simply tapped the steering column in until it all fit snug. I also took the rag joint apart, and when I started getting close, put the steering column end on.

My steering column already has a flat in it for the locking allen head and nut. So I just matched it up. After the job was finished I simply unscrewed the steering wheel and put it back on straight with the wheels.





Once I had everything aligned I used the old masking tape on the box wrench trick to start the three nuts on the new bolts supplied by borgeson and locked it in place.

The ball joint for the drag link was also straight forward. I screwed in on all the way, and only had to back it off about 1/8 turn to align it with the Pitman arm. Everything cleared, but the adjusting nut was close, so I got the grinder and took a little bit off the lower arm just to give me piece of mind.




The hoses are VERY heavy duty. I suggest routing them inside the pump bracket and up under the alternator. They already have bends that seem designed for this. You should attach them to the pump first.

Another tip, the hose clamp supplied with the kit for the return line is too small. You will need the next bigger size.




You will need to use the little brass fittings on the B Box, but I didn't need one on the pump. Make sure you tighten the line from the pump to the Torque required to make the big vein in your neck pop up, otherwise it will leak. Don't ask me how I know this

This is what the clamp looks like that came with the kit. Too small.



Make sure you follow the instructions for filling the pump and priming the new box. I found that the return line on the box leaked just a little bit and I had to torque it down to the specs listed above.

Also the pressure line on the pump sprayed a fine mist until I got it tightened down, then all was fine. No leaks now. But I had to really tighten those connections. But I also don't think I'll ever have to remove them again in my lifetime.

Lined up the steering wheel, and took her for a drive with the wife on board.

All I can say, what a huge improvement. With my small steering wheel it is exactly 3 turns from stop to stop. Firm, instant response on the steering wheel.

No mushy, squishy, delayed reaction yuckiness.

 

Installed a Borgeson box in 2009,used a SS ujoint.Didn't care for the supplied rag joint.No issues vette steers great and no leaks since.The rack systems are using two ujoints and the angles look pretty radical.My 4X4 truck has a ujoint on the steering shaft with no problems.Truck flexes and twists when off road.Rather have a Ujoint then the rubber rag joint which can deteriorate due to heat and oils.Your car use whatever you feel works best.As far as the vibration being transmitted through the Ujoint,I didn't notice the difference.The Borgeson rag joint doesn't use shoulder bolts which could cause the bolt threads to eat the rubber....
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More speculative hysteria...seems we have two camps;

1. Those of us that have used the borgeson rag joint with no issues.
2. Those who have been scared off by who knows what and never installed it?!?

Rag joints are dampeners by design they will absorb and deflect road vibrations away from the the column shaft. There is no way anyone can say truthfully say they cant tell the difference on every road surface and every driving condition. C3's are not 4x4 trucks. If you are out autocrossing and working your car hard I can see using the u joint...or if you're just scared off by some unsubstantiated rumor ..each to his own.

Put it this way, Borgeson has been selling these for many many years...not one wrongful death lawsuit that I've seen.

 

Instead of buying the borgeson u-joint or rag joint, I modified my original rag joint. On the flange that fits the original box, I used a carbide burr and ground out the spline and left the flat area alone. It fits on the jeep box amazingly well. With the box centered and the steering column shaft centered as original, the modified flange slips right onto the jeep box input shaft. The jeep box had to have a relief ground into the shaft for the pinch bolt because the one it had is on the opposite side.

 

So much more room in there without that vacuum brake booster!

 

I am in the process of installing a Borgeson box in my 80 corvette and looking at A probable heat problem. The box fits OK but there is only about 1/4 inch space between my headers and the box about the same as in the picture above. I believe that is going to cause the fluid to boil, I am thinking I will have to add a small oil cooler in front to keep it a little cooler.

Anyone else have this problem?

 

I don't think it will be a problem. I just looked at a couple of power steering fluids and the boiling point is around 500*F. Let's say your header hits a max temp of 600*F which would probably be glowing. As long as your fluid is flowing, it will never get close to the 600*F and the boiling point of the oil will go up since it is under pressure. That's all the information I have on the issue. Maybe someone with real world data or one of the engineer types will have more information. You could go for a ride and measure your header temp just to put your mind at ease.

 

I agree that it is not a problem.

I've been on mine now for a couple of months with no issues at all except great driving.

I have Hooker long tube headers and the heat doesn't seem to have any effect at all.

Seems to me the power steering fluid cycling through the pump cools it. After all the pump, where most of the oil is anyway, is right in the path of air coming from the radiator.

The pump reservoir is a cooler.

 

anyone who's interested, PM me for a coupon code to get the kit for $570 shipped

 

Oh wow, don't do that to me! I want this so bad but don't have the money right now
How long is it good for? Hopefully a year

 

You know, it's ironic, leather seats cost more than this upgrade.

Every so often there is an upgrade or improvement that just defies all logic. And this is one of them. Why didn't GM do this from the start?

What I mean is, for a reasonable cost you can totally improve the safety and handling of your car.

I didn't realize just how bad the stock steering was until I put this in. The car would meander along the road, wandering and mushy always having a sort of "just barely under control" feel.

Not any more.