Borgeson Install
Drifting
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 22
From: Oxford CT
I was looking at the moog web site at theses and it indicated they increase camber. Don't know if that increases caster too?
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
The offset replacement shaft compensates for the sag or bending of the frame. Putting them in brings you back to stock lets you use lots of shims for proper alignment. With lots of shims in place, it's easier to set the specs you want, including caster.
If you look at enough high mile Corvettes and other Chevrolet products, you'll notice most have very few shims in place, due to sagged frames.
Petr
If you look at enough high mile Corvettes and other Chevrolet products, you'll notice most have very few shims in place, due to sagged frames.
Petr
Pro
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 558
Likes: 22
From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
So, taking this a step further, with frame sag, are we talking about the a-arm mounts pulled in (dimension less than optimal 26 3/8") or the reverse? Mounts moving away from each other.
Sorry to OP for thread high Jack.
Sorry to OP for thread high Jack.
Drifting
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 22
From: Oxford CT
The offset replacement shaft compensates for the sag or bending of the frame. Putting them in brings you back to stock lets you use lots of shims for proper alignment. With lots of shims in place, it's easier to set the specs you want, including caster.
If you look at enough high mile Corvettes and other Chevrolet products, you'll notice most have very few shims in place, due to sagged frames.
Petr
If you look at enough high mile Corvettes and other Chevrolet products, you'll notice most have very few shims in place, due to sagged frames.
Petr
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
Pete
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,445
Likes: 353
From: Athens GA
St. Jude Donor '12-'13, '15- '16-'17-'18-'19, '21
The reason I ask is that I am about to tear down to the frame and will change all bushings on the rebuild.
I have a spreader arm already to include in that build.
I may change the a-arms and the shafts at the same time.
Wondering if stock replacement arms are all I need or even if I could just reuse the old ones with new bushings.
Txs for your input.
Txs to OP for thread as am gathering a lot of info before going ahead with the Borgeson install also.
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Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
Are you saying that installing a spreader bar is all that would be needed to undo the sag?
The reason I ask is that I am about to tear down to the frame and will change all bushings on the rebuild.
I have a spreader arm already to include in that build.
I may change the a-arms and the shafts at the same time.
Wondering if stock replacement arms are all I need or even if I could just reuse the old ones with new bushings.
Txs for your input.
Txs to OP for thread as am gathering a lot of info before going ahead with the Borgeson install also.
The reason I ask is that I am about to tear down to the frame and will change all bushings on the rebuild.
I have a spreader arm already to include in that build.
I may change the a-arms and the shafts at the same time.
Wondering if stock replacement arms are all I need or even if I could just reuse the old ones with new bushings.
Txs for your input.
Txs to OP for thread as am gathering a lot of info before going ahead with the Borgeson install also.
If you have the bare frame, or the engine out you might be able to spread the frame with a large jack, or means. But I'd be concerned about cracking or distorting the frame. It's probably doable, but......
The offset replacement shafts and a speeder bar to keep sag from increasing is probably the best bet, considering cost, effort, etc.
Pete
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 19,178
Likes: 1,668
From: Long Island
I had trouble with the alignment on my 71, 70k miles. The off set bars allowed the shop to properly set all the specs.
I drove the car for 1/2 summer then did the rebuild, a huge difference. I replaced all the bushings, tie rods and ball joints with MOOG. I had the motor out so it was easy.
It allowed the shop to vary the number of shims to get the proper caster and camber. Previously the bar was up against the frame on the passenger side.
They make A arms that are adjustable - if needed. I have a mostly matching # car and wanted it to look somewhat stock. (I put the 4 speed in a box and put in a SST kit 5 speed - keeping the 4 speed plate.)
I drove the car for 1/2 summer then did the rebuild, a huge difference. I replaced all the bushings, tie rods and ball joints with MOOG. I had the motor out so it was easy.
It allowed the shop to vary the number of shims to get the proper caster and camber. Previously the bar was up against the frame on the passenger side.
They make A arms that are adjustable - if needed. I have a mostly matching # car and wanted it to look somewhat stock. (I put the 4 speed in a box and put in a SST kit 5 speed - keeping the 4 speed plate.)
Last edited by BLUE1972; Mar 5, 2016 at 08:18 PM. Reason: spell
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
I had trouble with the alignment on my 71, 70k miles. The off set bars allowed the shop to properly set all the specs.
I drove the car for 1/2 summer then did the rebuild, a huge difference. I replaced all the bushings, tie rods and ball joints with MOOG. I had the motor out so it was easy.
It allowed the shop to vary the number of shims to get the proper caster and camber. Previously the bar was up against the frame on the passenger side.
They make A arms that are adjustable - if needed. I have a mostly matching # car and wanted it to look somewhat stock. (I put the 4 speed in a box and put in a SST kit 5 speed - keeping the 4 speed plate.)
I drove the car for 1/2 summer then did the rebuild, a huge difference. I replaced all the bushings, tie rods and ball joints with MOOG. I had the motor out so it was easy.
It allowed the shop to vary the number of shims to get the proper caster and camber. Previously the bar was up against the frame on the passenger side.
They make A arms that are adjustable - if needed. I have a mostly matching # car and wanted it to look somewhat stock. (I put the 4 speed in a box and put in a SST kit 5 speed - keeping the 4 speed plate.)
that's exactly what those offset shafts or bars are for. Pete
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,445
Likes: 353
From: Athens GA
St. Jude Donor '12-'13, '15- '16-'17-'18-'19, '21
I don't think any currently available,spreader bar would be strong enough to "undo" age related sag.
If you have the bare frame, or the engine out you might be able to spread the frame with a large jack, or means. But I'd be concerned about cracking or distorting the frame. It's probably doable, but......
The offset replacement shafts and a speeder bar to keep sag from increasing is probably the best bet, considering cost, effort, etc.
Pete
If you have the bare frame, or the engine out you might be able to spread the frame with a large jack, or means. But I'd be concerned about cracking or distorting the frame. It's probably doable, but......
The offset replacement shafts and a speeder bar to keep sag from increasing is probably the best bet, considering cost, effort, etc.
Pete
Good info.
How does one tell if the frame is sagging inwards?
Is there a measurement that can be made from the upper a-arms?
If so, what would the spec be for that?
Txs again
Bman
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
A good front end tech. can tell you if the offset bars will help. That's what they (the offset bars) are for.
Pete
Last edited by PeteZO6; Mar 5, 2016 at 09:56 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,066
Likes: 57
I read on a different Borgenson thread, that hammering the shaft causes an inner steering column bearing to collapse. Is this true?
After reading this entire thread, I didn't find any info on removing the column and cutting the shaft.
Can anyone comment how this is done (I have a '71 350, w/power steering, no tilt)?
Thanks
After reading this entire thread, I didn't find any info on removing the column and cutting the shaft.
Can anyone comment how this is done (I have a '71 350, w/power steering, no tilt)?
Thanks
Drifting
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 22
From: Oxford CT
I read on a different Borgenson thread, that hammering the shaft causes an inner steering column bearing to collapse. Is this true?
After reading this entire thread, I didn't find any info on removing the column and cutting the shaft.
Can anyone comment how this is done (I have a '71 350, w/power steering, no tilt)?
Thanks
After reading this entire thread, I didn't find any info on removing the column and cutting the shaft.
Can anyone comment how this is done (I have a '71 350, w/power steering, no tilt)?
Thanks
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,162
Likes: 4,171
From: Kannapolis NC
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
I read on a different Borgenson thread, that hammering the shaft causes an inner steering column bearing to collapse. Is this true?
After reading this entire thread, I didn't find any info on removing the column and cutting the shaft.
Can anyone comment how this is done (I have a '71 350, w/power steering, no tilt)?
Thanks
After reading this entire thread, I didn't find any info on removing the column and cutting the shaft.
Can anyone comment how this is done (I have a '71 350, w/power steering, no tilt)?
Thanks
Pete
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,066
Likes: 57
Removing the steering column to cut it to proper length is only required on certain C2 Corvettes. All C3s have the collapsible steering column that can be shortened enough with the column in place. You just have to be careful to go slowly and tap lightly until you get the feel for how it's moving. You don't want to bash it with a BFH and find you have to somehow pull the shaft back out.
Pete
Pete
Speaking of which, if you collapse the shaft too far, can it easily be pulled back out/lengthened?
Thanks
Drifting
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,970
Likes: 45
From: Cameron Park CA
There was some discussion years back that even collapsing the column to accommodate the Borgeson resulted in a loss of protection to some degree. The consensus was that while that was true, the small amount of loss of protection was worth the advantage of the Borgeson.
There you have it, it's up to you to decide.
Pete
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,939
Likes: 477
From: NSW, Australia
C3 of Year Finalist (track prepared) 2019
Yes... But don't do what I did. While trying to get the rag joint on, the shaft pushed back up inside the column, and I couldn't get it back out. Had to remove and dismantle the column to fix it! It happened fast. I'd recommend clamping the shaft (with vice grips or similar) while pushing the rag joint on.
Last edited by Metalhead140; Mar 7, 2016 at 06:49 PM.